Who says one organization today is "The True Church"

[jmcrae]

This assumes that absolutely nothing changes with this oldest organization over time.

Do you think that the Judaism of the time of Christ would have been recognizable to Abraham, its founder?

And yet, Jesus did not go to the Samaritans, who were practicing what Abraham had practiced without “adding to it” (as they saw it) the 10 Commandments or Temple worship, but rather, Christ came to Abraham’s actual descendants - his physical progeny who were the heirs in an unbroken line to the religion that he had founded, rather than those who had started up a new religion patterned after that which he had founded.

So, for that reason, I disagree - the fact that the Church has evolved and developed over time takes nothing away from the fact that it is the actual one that Christ originally founded.

If that is the case, then it could be believable that God sides with the oldest organization each time there is a division and that He continues to provide the oldest organization benefits and graces that He just will not provide to the other organizations.

It’s not a matter of God “siding with” this or that. God founded one Church. God gave His promises to that same Church. Other organizations that spring up may imitate the original in this way or that, just as the religion of the Samaritans imitated certain aspects of Judaism - but they are not what Christ established, and to them, Christ made no promises.

As for graces and blessings, God pours the rain down on both the just and the unjust, and shines His sun on them all afterwards, too. That doesn’t change the fact that the “tap” through which these blessings flow is still the Church, pouring out and overflowing to all of humanity.

 

[AmateurPianist]

God founded one Church. God gave His promises to that same Church.

But now we are going around in circles.

I agree with this statement. I think I have said this.

But what I don’t understand is why it is impossible for the church of Jesus Christ to exist in more than one organization.

And…

I can observe just in my little community what really appears to be the church of Jesus Christ in more than one organization. I know of sincere believers in Jesus Christ who worship on Sundays in many organizations.

I can observe the hand of God advancing His kingdom within my organization. And not only mine but several organization within my little community and my little county.

And since I see nowhere in the Word of God any intrinsic reason why He will give one organization special blessings, privileges, and graces that He will not intrinsically give others.

I think I will still trust what I have observed and seen and conclude that today the church of Jesus Christ exists within several organizations.

Now if you want to believe that the church of Jesus Christ exists solely within your organization and that He provides your organization blessings, privileges, and graces that He refuses to provide other organizations, go ahead. Like I have said, I am not here to convert anybody.

 

[AmateurPianist]

Do you think that the Judaism of the time of Christ would have been recognizable to Abraham, its founder?

And Judaism since the time of Abraham to the time of Christ was constantly departing from what God had designed for it. Man has free will, and man through His free will can thwart the design of God for a period of time. That is a clear lesson from the Old Testament.

Perhaps the divisions that have occurred in the church is also man thwarting the design of God for a period of time on both sides of the division.

And yet, Jesus did not go to the Samaritans, who were practicing what Abraham had practiced without “adding to it” (as they saw it) the 10 Commandments or Temple worship, but rather, Christ came to Abraham’s actual descendants - his physical progeny who were the heirs in an unbroken line to the religion that he had founded, rather than those who had started up a new religion patterned after that which he had founded.

But I read in John 4 where Jesus did go to the Samaritans.

And the third person of the Trinity has since the resurrection gone to the whole world. And at the end of the age, God will have a people from every tribe and nation.

So I don’t see your point here.

So, for that reason, I disagree - the fact that the Church has evolved and developed over time takes nothing away from the fact that it is the actual one that Christ originally founded.

Again, you totally miss my point that it is a historical fact that the actual one that Christ originally founded has divided.

It’s not a matter of God “siding with” this or that. God founded one Church. God gave His promises to that same Church. Other organizations that spring up may imitate the original in this way or that, just as the religion of the Samaritans imitated certain aspects of Judaism - but they are not what Christ established, and to them, Christ made no promises.

I disagree. When any entity divides, the children entities inherit equally from the parent except certain attributes that logically can be passed to only one entity. In the case of the church splitting that would be attributes like “name” and “property”. Now if you want to believe “name” and “property” are governing metrics here, go ahead, but I don’t believe that myself.

As for graces and blessings, God pours the rain down on both the just and the unjust, and shines His sun on them all afterwards, too. That doesn’t change the fact that the “tap” through which these blessings flow is still the Church, pouring out and overflowing to all of humanity.

But…

First of all the grace and blessing of God protecting leadership so that it is impossible for leadership to be in error when they proclaim doctrine can only be found in one organization when there are more than one organizations proclaiming mutually exclusive doctrine.

Second, your organization proclaims that there is no salvation outside of your organization. That sounds like a special and very important benefit that God has provided only your organization. God could just as easily be able to provide salvation through the many organizations that exist today (which is what I believe). But instead God chooses just one organization which just so happens to be yours.

Third the real presence is a blessing that while the Orthodox share, God has withheld from Protestant organizations. And since you believe John 6 relates to the real presence and Jesus teaches within the context of John 6 that eating His flesh and drinking His blood is necessary for eternal life, what you have in effect is God withholding from some organizations that which is vitally important for members within these organizations to come to eternal life.

For me to accept that your organization is exclusively the church of Jesus Christ, I also must believe that He provides to your organization these three benefits that He does not provide the other organizations (granted He provides the third benefit to the Orthodox but not the Protestants). These are not minor little perks. These are things that per your organization relate to the salvation of our very souls.

If these three points alone do not constitute a great big superior->inferior relationship, I don’t know what would be one.

 

[Bill_Pick]

But now we are going around in circles.

I agree with this statement. I think I have said this.

But what I don’t understand is why it is impossible for the church of Jesus Christ to exist in more than one organization.

And…

I can observe just in my little community what really appears to be the church of Jesus Christ in more than one organization. I know of sincere believers in Jesus Christ who worship on Sundays in many organizations.

I can observe the hand of God advancing His kingdom within my organization. And not only mine but several organization within my little community and my little county.

And since I see nowhere in the Word of God any intrinsic reason why He will give one organization special blessings, privileges, and graces that He will not intrinsically give others.

I think I will still trust what I have observed and seen and conclude that today the church of Jesus Christ exists within several organizations.

Now if you want to believe that the church of Jesus Christ exists solely within your organization and that He provides your organization blessings, privileges, and graces that He refuses to provide other organizations, go ahead. Like I have said, I am not here to convert anybody.

f
Are you talking about the Church ofJesus Christ as the morman church or are you talking about the Chuirch that are Lord Jesus Christ started in 33 AD by Jesus Christ

 

[sablouwho]

I can observe just in my little community what really appears to be the church of Jesus Christ in more than one organization. I know of sincere believers in Jesus Christ who worship on Sundays in many organizations.

I can observe the hand of God advancing His kingdom within my organization. And not only mine but several organization within my little community and my little county.

And since I see nowhere in the Word of God any intrinsic reason why He will give one organization special blessings, privileges, and graces that He will not intrinsically give others.

I think I will still trust what I have observed and seen and conclude that today the church of Jesus Christ exists within several organizations.

In my 4 years as a Christian, during which time I’ve checked out many different churches to see which one I ultimately wanted to join, I have experienced/observed the same thing as AP. Thus it is hard for me to believe any one Christian organization has “got it all.” Each organization seems to have some chaff thrown in with the wheat.

I’m joining the RCC because it is the one to which I feel a “pull”. Despite what I feel is some chaff w/in that organization, I like that particular “brand” of wheat.

 

[jmcrae]

But now we are going around in circles.

I agree with this statement. I think I have said this.

But what I don’t understand is why it is impossible for the church of Jesus Christ to exist in more than one organization.

If He had founded more than one, then it would exist in more than one.

Do you find any evidence in Scripture for there being more than one Church, or do you find that the Apostles were all in accord with one another?

I

can observe just in my little community what really appears to be the church of Jesus Christ in more than one organization. I know of sincere believers in Jesus Christ who worship on Sundays in many organizations.

God can work outside the visible boundaries of His Church - no one in the Catholic Church is saying that He cannot. But the graces that flow out to those other people and those other organizations is coming through the Catholic Church, as water through a pipe that goes to a kitchen tap.

The pipe doesn’t cease to exist just because the person using the tap isn’t aware of where the water comes from - and his thirst is quenched whether he knows about the pipe or not.

 

[jmcrae]

But I read in John 4 where Jesus did go to the Samaritans.

He was born into the Judaism of Moses and of Herod. He was not born to a Samaritan maiden. That’s what I was meaning when I said that Jesus came to the Jews. Jesus also preached to certain Gentiles, but He Himself was not a Gentile. The Jews who were descended of Abraham through Moses were the Chosen of God. No one else. Even though they had evolved and made changes over time to their laws and their style of worship.

I disagree. When any entity divides, the children entities inherit equally from the parent except certain attributes that logically can be passed to only one entity. In the case of the church splitting that would be attributes like “name” and “property”. Now if you want to believe “name” and “property” are governing metrics here, go ahead, but I don’t believe that myself.

Lutheranism and Calvinism were not “child entities” of the Catholic Church. They were in rebellion against the Church. Any suggestion that they shared anything in common with the Church would have offended both Calvin and Luther - they were intentionally starting up new religions. Calvin’s followers bashed the heads off of the statues of the Apostles at St. Andrew’s Cathedral in order to emphasize the point that they were not in continuity with the Apostolic Tradition - they were actively opposed to it.

First of all the grace and blessing of God protecting leadership so that it is impossible for leadership to be in error when they proclaim doctrine can only be found in one organization when there are more than one organizations proclaiming mutually exclusive doctrine.

Second, your organization proclaims that there is no salvation outside of your organization. That sounds like a special and very important benefit that God has provided only your organization. God could just as easily be able to provide salvation through the many organizations that exist today (which is what I believe). But instead God chooses just one organization which just so happens to be yours.

The water and blood pouring forth from the side of Christ washed the Catholic Church clean and made her a pure bride for Christ.

Third the real presence is a blessing that while the Orthodox share, God has withheld from Protestant organizations.

It was not God who withheld it - it was Martin Luther, John Calvin, and others who made sure that the Protestants were as divided as possible from the Catholic Church.

You and any other Protestants are all free to come home. There is nothing to stop you.

 

[tweetymom]

He was born into the Judaism of Moses and of Herod. He was not born to a Samaritan maiden. That’s what I was meaning when I said that Jesus came to the Jews. Jesus also preached to certain Gentiles, but He Himself was not a Gentile. The Jews who were descended of Abraham through Moses were the Chosen of God. No one else. Even though they had evolved and made changes over time to their laws and their style of worship.

Lutheranism and Calvinism were not “child entities” of the Catholic Church. They were in rebellion against the Church. Any suggestion that they shared anything in common with the Church would have offended both Calvin and Luther - they were intentionally starting up new religions. Calvin’s followers bashed the heads off of the statues of the Apostles at St. Andrew’s Cathedral in order to emphasize the point that they were not in continuity with the Apostolic Tradition - they were actively opposed to it.

First of all the grace and blessing of God protecting leadership so that it is impossible for leadership to be in error when they proclaim doctrine can only be found in one organization when there are more than one organizations proclaiming mutually exclusive doctrine.

The water and blood pouring forth from the side of Christ washed the Catholic Church clean and made her a pure bride for Christ.

It was not God who withheld it - it was Martin Luther, John Calvin, and others who made sure that the Protestants were as divided as possible from the Catholic Church.

You and any other Protestants are all free to come home. There is nothing to stop you.

Did you ever stop to think that they are already home, and happy in the Lord?

 

[jmcrae]

Did you ever stop to think that they are already home, and happy in the Lord?

Then why are they pounding on our doors and demanding a seat at our table?

 

[tweetymom]

Then why are they pounding on our doors and demanding a seat at our table?

Pounding oon your doors? Everyone should be able to take communion together.

 

[AmateurPianist]

Did you ever stop to think that they are already home, and happy in the Lord?

If I were ever to “come home”, it would be to the Methodist church of my youth.

 

[AmateurPianist]

If He had founded more than one, then it would exist in more than one.

Wait a minute, we are mixing the objects of pronouns. The first “one” refers to an object of “church”. The second “one” refers to an object of organization"

Do you find any evidence in Scripture for there being more than one Church, or do you find that the Apostles were all in accord with one another?

But we are in agreement that there is one church.

God can work outside the visible boundaries of His Church - no one in the Catholic Church is saying that He cannot. But the graces that flow out to those other people and those other organizations is coming through the Catholic Church, as water through a pipe that goes to a kitchen tap. The pipe doesn’t cease to exist just because the person using the tap isn’t aware of where the water comes from - and his thirst is quenched whether he knows about the pipe or not

There is no organizational relationship between my organization and your organization. Therefore how can it be said that they are coming through the Catholic Church? It makes no sense?

When a missionary that my little church supports shares the Word of God with somebody in China and that person responds and receives the gift of eternal life, there is nobody from your organization involved in this process.

Not that credit for this should go to any organization anyway. All of the credit goes back to where it belongs, the Lord Jesus Christ.

.

 

[AmateurPianist]

He was born into the Judaism of Moses and of Herod. He was not born to a Samaritan maiden. That’s what I was meaning when I said that Jesus came to the Jews. Jesus also preached to certain Gentiles, but He Himself was not a Gentile. The Jews who were descended of Abraham through Moses were the Chosen of God. No one else. Even though they had evolved and made changes over time to their laws and their style of worship.

Logically Jesus could only have one set of parents with one lineage. Jesus was born of the tribe of Judah. The other 11 tribes were excluded. That does not mean that the other 11 tribes wiere not Israel.

Lutheranism and Calvinism were not “child entities” of the Catholic Church. They were in rebellion against the Church. Any suggestion that they shared anything in common with the Church would have offended both Calvin and Luther - they were intentionally starting up new religions. Calvin’s followers bashed the heads off of the statues of the Apostles at St. Andrew’s Cathedral in order to emphasize the point that they were not in continuity with the Apostolic Tradition - they were actively opposed to it.

Logically when a parent entity divides, both of the “child entities” inherit from the parents.

And even your organization says they shared much with the parent organization (a common baptism being one example).

And anyway I think the circumstances of the reformation are much more complex than the spin that you are providing here. On my things to do list is to read a history of the reformation and the church at that time period that is as spin free as possible.

To be honest I don’t buy into either the Catholic spin you are providing or the traditional Protestant spin for that matter. I think the facts of the matter are much more complex and everybody wants to simplify the facts.

The water and blood pouring forth from the side of Christ washed the Catholic Church clean and made her a pure bride for Christ.

Did Jesus die for an organization or for people?

It was not God who withheld it - it was Martin Luther, John Calvin, and others who made sure that the Protestants were as divided as possible from the Catholic Church.

You and any other Protestants are all free to come home. There is nothing to stop you.

Again this is the traditional Catholic spin. I know both the traditional Catholic and traditional Protestant spin and to be honest I don’t buy into either.

 

[AmateurPianist]

In my 4 years as a Christian, during which time I’ve checked out many different churches to see which one I ultimately wanted to join, I have experienced/observed the same thing as AP. Thus it is hard for me to believe any one Christian organization has “got it all.” Each organization seems to have some chaff thrown in with the wheat.

I’m joining the RCC because it is the one to which I feel a “pull”. Despite what I feel is some chaff w/in that organization, I like that particular “brand” of wheat.

And that is great. One consequence of the church being divided into multiple organizations is that every Christian must make a choice (which is a matter of private judgment based on study, prayer, and experience) as to what organization they choose to affiliate with.

My conclusion from observation is that it is perfectly fine that the Holy Spirit can lead some into one organization and others into different organizations.

A question (and I don’t mean this in a sense to disparge your choice).

It seems from reading your posts that you believe most of the various Christian organizations are roughly equal to each other. Now I have observed
(1) This is not the claim that the Catholic church makes concerning itself. Instead there are graces and benefits that are unique only to the Catholic church.
(2) The Catholic church demands that its adherents believe that everything it teaches is true.
(3) I have observed some pharisees here persecute a certain 71 year old Catholic grandmother and revert because she hold certain beliefs that are not totally orthodox to them.

So something is not quite adding up as to how you can hold the belief of rough equality of organizations and then join up with an organization that claims something else and demands that its adherents believe the same thing.

But if that is fine with you and fine with your priest(s) and parish, then it is certainly fine with me and God bless you (and I do notice that this same 71 year old grandmother here is fine with the leadership of her local parish and vice versa). Now it might not be fine with some of the pharisees here, but to me that is their problem.

 

[FabiusMaximus]

All denominations see themselves as the “True Church”. Otherwise there wouldn’t be separate denominations. What kind of Pentecostal would say that the Baptist theology is “as correct” as their own, or vice versa? Sure they share a lot of the same principles, but one will always claim to be at least a “little more correct” than the others.

They don’t proclaim it openly, perhaps, but that’s how it is.

 

[tweetymom]

All denominations see themselves as the “True Church”. Otherwise there wouldn’t be separate denominations. What kind of Pentecostal would say that the Baptist theology is “as correct” as their own, or vice versa? Sure they share a lot of the same principles, but one will always claim to be at least a “little more correct” than the others.

They don’t proclaim it openly, perhaps, but that’s how it is.

It is too bad and sad that we as Christians cannot appreciate one another and come together in the name of Jesus.

 

[Bill_Pick]

If He had founded more than one, then it would exist in more than one.

Do you find any evidence in Scripture for there being more than one Church, or do you find that the Apostles were all in accord with one another?

I

God can work outside the visible boundaries of His Church - no one in the Catholic Church is saying that He cannot. But the graces that flow out to those other people and those other organizations is coming through the Catholic Church, as water through a pipe that goes to a kitchen tap.

The pipe doesn’t cease to exist just because the person using the tap isn’t aware of where the water comes from - and his thirst is quenched whether he knows about the pipe or not.

Jesus Christ started ONE Church and it is the Cathlkoic Church,man started the other 32,000 churchs

 

[AmateurPianist]

All denominations see themselves as the “True Church”. Otherwise there wouldn’t be separate denominations. What kind of Pentecostal would say that the Baptist theology is “as correct” as their own, or vice versa? Sure they share a lot of the same principles, but one will always claim to be at least a “little more correct” than the others.

They don’t proclaim it openly, perhaps, but that’s how it is.

I agree that everybody claims themselves as “Correct” or at least “More correct than the next guy”

That is not the same as claiming oneself to be “The One True Church”.

The “One True Church” claim is a claim of intrinsic superiority in the eyes of God. And that God gives your organization special graces, benefits, and priviliges that that He just will not give other Christian organizations.

The denomination of the church I attend does not claim intrinsic superiority in the eyes of God to other denominations. We do not claim that God gives us any special benefits on the basis of being “Assembly of God” that He just will not give to other organizations.

 

[AmateurPianist]

It is too bad and sad that we as Christians cannot appreciate one another and come together in the name of Jesus.

Amen.

The good thing is that out in the real world this is happening quite a bit (not as much as I would like granted).

 

[jmcrae]

Wait a minute, we are mixing the objects of pronouns. The first “one” refers to an object of “church”. The second “one” refers to an object of organization"

Jesus founded an organization. We see that in the Book of the Acts of the Apostles. The Apostles were the leaders of an organization that had teaching authority and decision-making power.

There is no organizational relationship between my organization and your organization. Therefore how can it be said that they are coming through the Catholic Church? It makes no sense?

The Catholic Church provides the raw materials with which other churches find Christ (in the cases where they do). The Bible came from the Catholic Church. The teaching that Jesus is True God and True Man came from the Catholic Church.

When a missionary that my little church supports shares the Word of God with somebody in China and that person responds and receives the gift of eternal life, there is nobody from your organization involved in this process.

That Word of God that your missionary is sharing came to him (via a long and winding route) from the Catholic Church, The Catholic Church is responsible for the original forming of that Bible, however edited it may have become while in the hands of your organization, that your missionary is passing around in China. The source and style of his preaching probably traces back to St. Dominic. Such graces as are received through his preaching, are coming from the 24 hours a day, seven days a week prayers of little nuns cloistered away in Catholic convents praying for the conversion of the whole world.

Even though your missionary isn’t Catholic, he shares in these Catholic graces because of his Baptism, and because of his sincerity of heart.