Who should we pray to? Mary or Jesus?

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gladtobe,

It appears you have much disdain for Catholic teaching, yet to claim to be Catholic, which says much about your lack of integrity.

Nevertheless, you still haven’t supported your argument Scripturally. Your attempt to undermine the “old orthodoxy” is unconvincing, and has proven your ignorance, especially your claims about “modern” Catholicism.

Biblically speaking, Mary’s obedience in Luke’s Gospel, her fiat to the angel Gabriel did indeed contribute to her salvation and to the salvation of all humanity. Your assent to that fact has little affect on its veracity. I go by what the Bible teaches as has been interpreted since the earliest centuries of Christianity, not the novel interpretations that you offer.

I’m reminded of what the Protestant scholar C.S. Lewis said of the novel Bible interpreters of his day:
"The undermining of the old orthodoxy has been mainly the work of divines engaged in New Testament criticism. The authority of experts in that discipline is the authority in deference to whom we are asked to give up a huge mass of beliefs shared in common by the early church…"

(C.S. Lewis, “Modern Theology and Biblical Criticism,” Chapter 31, McDowell, J., The New Evidence That Demands a Verdict, Nelson Publishers, Nashville, 1999, pg. 574)
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Your authority as a Bible interpreter is no match for the “huge mass of beliefs shared in common by the early church.”
 
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gladtobe:
The blasphemous statement St Jerome made is heresy and a lie of the devil. All honor and glory is to be given to Jesus Christ alone, for man’s salvation. He died alone on Calvary’s cross for our sins and not Mary. I was not aware that the Catholic church now believes that both Jesus and Mary are co- Saviors of the world. One learns new things everyday I suppose.
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The uncharitable dialogue always gets incrementally notched up by the A/C posters.😦

Oh Blessed Mother, please pray for gladtobe!
 
If this is what these two Greek philosophers…
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St. Jerome was Latin, not Greek, although he was an expert in both Biblical Greek and Hebrew. He was a Bible scholar, not a philosopher. The translators of the Protestant 1611 King James Version describe St. Jerome as “**a most learned father.” **Yet, you call him a heretic. I suspect your ignorance is showing again. St. Jereome was one of the greatest Bible scholars of Christian history, according to Protestant, Orthodox, and Catholic Christianity. If you spent even a fraction of the time studying the Bible as he did, you wouldn’t be so ill informed with regard to Christianity.

St. Irenaeus (ca AD 155-202), according to Protestant scholar J.N.D. Kelly, “summarized orthodoxy of the 2nd century.” He was a Christian of the 2nd century who read, wrote, and spoke in Biblical Greek. Do you? He was a student of St. Polycarp, who personally knew and studied under St. John the Apostle. I think his Biblical instruction is likely to be vastly superior to yours.

My overall impression is that you are so filled with vainglory and confidence in your own personal abilities in interpreting Scripture that you reject the teaching of the ordained fathers who came before you. It’s a common Protestant mistake. I pray that one day you are able to realize your mistake and be humble enough to accept the teaching of the Holy Church that has existed for the past 2000 years.
 
gladtobe is not a Catholic. His posts have Protestant written all over them. Even in his profile he spells Catholic with a small “c”.
 
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itsjustdave1988:
St. Jerome was Latin, not Greek, although he was an expert in both Biblical Greek and Hebrew. He was a Bible scholar, not a philosopher. The translators of the Protestant 1611 King James Version describe St. Jerome as “**a most learned father.” **Yet, you call him a heretic. I suspect your ignorance is showing again. St. Jereome was one of the greatest Bible scholars of Christian history, according to Protestant, Orthodox, and Catholic Christianity. If you spent even a fraction of the time studying the Bible as he did, you wouldn’t be so ill informed with regard to Christianity.

St. Irenaeus (ca AD 155-202), according to Protestant scholar J.N.D. Kelly, “summarized orthodoxy of the 2nd century.” He was a Christian of the 2nd century who read, wrote, and spoke in Biblical Greek. Do you? He was a student of St. Polycarp, who personally knew and studied under St. John the Apostle. I think his Biblical instruction is likely to be vastly superior to yours.

My overall impression is that you are so filled with vainglory and confidence in your own personal abilities in interpreting Scripture that you reject the teaching of the ordained fathers who came before you. It’s a common Protestant mistake. I pray that one day you are able to realize your mistake and be humble enough to accept the teaching of the Holy Church that has existed for the past 2000 years.
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:amen:
 
It really does not matter that men esteem other men in regards to religous learning. No matter if it be Aristole or St Jerome. What matters is what is Christ to you. Is he your all? Who shall you call on in the moment of your death? Shall it be Mary or the Lord? Pope John Paul when shot called on Mary to save him. Forunately he survived.
Who do you consider your Savior or are there now two Saviors as Rome espouses? Who hung alone bloody and beaten on Calvary's cross. It surely wasn't Mary. I am judged harshly because I worship and adore my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and not Mary as well. When you die, and I as well and ten thousand years have passed and all of man's learning, only Christ will matter. And those who have trusted and worshiped him alone. Even so, come quickly Lord Jesus. Amen
 
…gladtobe…you couldn’t have picked a worse opponent than itsjustdave1988. Please pick one specific argument (communion of saints, immaculate conception, assumption, etc.), and bring your best material with it. Quote all the scripture you want, cite all the Protestant scholars you can. Give as much support to this argument as you possibly can. I have the utmost confidence that itsjustdave will show you the error of your ways…in short, bring your ‘A’ game!

Good luck, and God bless!
RyanL
 
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gladtobe:
Who do you consider your Savior or are there now two Saviors as Rome espouses? Who hung alone bloody and beaten on Calvary’s cross. It surely wasn’t Mary. I am judged harshly because I worship and adore my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and not Mary as well. When you die, and I as well and ten thousand years have passed and all of man’s learning, only Christ will matter. And those who have trusted and worshiped him alone. Even so, come quickly Lord Jesus. Amen
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Well can you at least admit that you are actually Protestant now? If you truly love Jesus, you shouldn’t be deceiving people like this. Unreal - I’m sure Jesus is really proud of you. [/sarcasm off]
 
Ryan
Code: 
        I need no one but Jesus and his word to surpass all the learning of men, including itsjustDave. If Christ and his apostles didn't teach it, then it simply is not true. Simple as that. I ask YOU Ryan. Is there any Savior, other than Jesus for you? Did Mary or Jesus atone for your sins? Will Jesus be with you in the hour of your death or shall it be Mary? Is Jesus enough to meet all your needs? 

        I don't care who objects to who I worship or who I pray to, whether he be a doctorate, a St Jerome or itsjust Dave, Jesus is greater than all and I stand on him, the solid rock. All other things are but sinking sand.
 
Aunt Martha
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                No, you are wrong. I really am Catholic. but I only worship and pray to Christ alone. He is my God, my Lord and my Savior. This a difficult concept for modern Catholics to grasp, because they are instructed to pray to many besides Jesus. Most Catholics believe Jesus only resides in the mass and that a personal experience with Lord is foolishness. But Christianity is Christ IN you, by his spirit. The Lord is not just found in a weekly host, but dwells within you, by his spirit. By prayer TO HIM, you have spiritual communion with him. You cannot have this with Mary. For her spirit does not reside in the hearts of believers. Do you see the difference?

                  The apostle Paul says I am crucified with Christ and it is not I that lives, but Christ lives IN ME. This is what it truly means to be a Christian. To have the "indwelling Christ" by his spirit and having daily communion with him. You may recite all the right words in the liturgy and have Fr. bless you, but without the indwelling Christ you are just paying lip service. 

                I only saw one priest ever preach on the indwelling Christ and that was Fr Corapi on EWTN. I have read books by Karl Keating, Stephen Ray, Dave Armstrong and Tim Staples, but their answer to finding God was countering the arguments of Protestants and defending all the weak arguments of the Catholic faith.There goal was peace and security lies within the teachings of the Catholic church organization.  

                 Not one of them has ever published a book on the importance of having the indwelling Christ daily in your life and daily communing with him in prayer. Look and read their books and see if what I'm saying is not true.

                Aunt Martha, Christ is what I stand for. If you want to label me a Protestant or an apostate, then I'm sorry you feel that way. But I have the peace of Christ within me and it gets sweeter as the day goes by.
 
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gladtobe:
If Christ and his apostles didn’t teach it, then it simply is not true. Simple as that
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I dont remember ever hearing Christ say “Go forth to all nations and hand out these Bibles, and tell all who read them that personal interpretation is good.”

I have to admit, and this may be very blunt but any member of this forum that is Catholic knows its true, but I really don’t believe that you are being lead by the Holy Spirit, but I do believe the Holy Spirit is trying to guide you but you just won’t listen. So you know what, you go ahead and do the whole little “The Bible, Jesus, and Me” thing. God gave us intellect my dear friend. Use it! You may just find that the “sinking sand” you are talking about is actually Protestantism. Just like everything else, it will pass and fade into oblivion, but the Church will always remain, there to offer you a hand as you become bogged down in the mindless and mediocre. 1500 years after Pentacost and THEN the Holy Spirit comes to Martin Luther or Early Protestants hid in caves and were the real church. This is such a load of bull…get real all ready people. Why is it some people just have no common sense. Ugh…it really is sickening.

DU
 
DU
It all depends in whom or what you are placing your salvation in doesn't it? In whom did the apostle Paul place his whole faith and life in? He said, It is not I that lives, but Christ IN ME." Shouldn't that be every Catholic's and Protestant's desire? You tell me.
 
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gladtobe:
No where in scripture are we asked to consult the departed spirits of the dead, no matter where they may be. It is true that living Christians should pray for one another, but nowhere are we commanded in scripture to consult the departed spirit of Mary for assistance. Especially in the fact that Jesus said categorically, Come UNTO ME all ye that are heavy laden and I will give your souls rest." Jesus never implied that we should seek departed spirits to intercede to him. But rather we should come directly TO HIM. And if we are now able to come to God and Jesus directly, why would we need anyone else to intercede for us anyway?
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Catholics are not sola scriptura people. We use Sacred Traditions right along with the Bible. So…there are lots of things that Catholics do that are not in the Bible. These things were established by the Apostles who had their authority given to them by Christ.

Praying to saints goes all the way back to them.

Sola scriptura is a man made tradition invented in the 1500’s by Martin Luther. (see the first line of your quote)

gladtobe, I noticed that in your profile you list your religion as “Catholic.” You really need to sit down and study this stuff. Much of what you say in your posts comes right out of the Protestant Handbook. (I made that up) The truth is that if you’re not practicing the faith as you should, you are practicing heresies. That ain’t good.
 
gladtobe, I think I have it. You are actually a Fudimentalist that lied about your religious affiliation just to come here and have fun at Catholic’s expense. Not nice! :tsktsk:
 
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gladtobe:
Ryan
Code: 
        I need no one but Jesus and his word to surpass all the learning of men, including itsjustDave. If Christ and his apostles didn't teach it, then it simply is not true. Simple as that. I ask YOU Ryan. Is there any Savior, other than Jesus for you? Did Mary or Jesus atone for your sins? Will Jesus be with you in the hour of your death or shall it be Mary? Is Jesus enough to meet all your needs? 

        I don't care who objects to who I worship or who I pray to, whether he be a doctorate, a St Jerome or itsjust Dave, Jesus is greater than all and I stand on him, the solid rock. All other things are but sinking sand.
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AMEN BROTHER!
 
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Subrosa:
gladtobe, I think I have it. You are actually a Fudimentalist that lied about your religious affiliation just to come here and have fun at Catholic’s expense. Not nice! :tsktsk:
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I think It would do everyone some good to read the book of martyrs to see the root of the papal church. The one thing all of us have in common is Christ is our Lord and Savior. Thank God for the blood of Jesus.
 
gladtobe

You started off with
think it is wrong to pray to anyone other than Jesus. Isn’t there a clear statement that Jesus wishes us to come DIRECTLY to him in prayer, rather than to Mary as an intercessor?
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You quickly threw in all sort of accusations that ignorant protestants use. Your language and reasoning smacks of a person who has had no contact with the Catholic religion. Are you using I am Catholic in a different way than we do to fool us? Are you in union with the Pope?
We do not worship Mary. If you were a Catholic, you would know that. By the way, your statement that Jesus wishes us to come directly to him in prayer, rather that to Mary as an intercessor is unfounded. You may believe it but Jesus never said it.
I asked, and you ignored, if you ever contemplated Jesus’ first miracle. If you ever did, you should have come to the realization that Jesus did not want to perform a miracle but at the request of His mother he did so.

You though you had us by asking if we would pray to anyone else (dead give away that you are not a Catholic). All Saints are in a better position than people you would ask on earth to pray for you to intercede with Jesus for us.
 
Ann Cheryl:
gladtobe

You started off with

You quickly threw in all sort of accusations that ignorant protestants use. Your language and reasoning smacks of a person who has had no contact with the Catholic religion. Are you using I am Catholic in a different way than we do to fool us? Are you in union with the Pope?
We do not worship Mary. If you were a Catholic, you would know that. By the way, your statement that Jesus wishes us to come directly to him in prayer, rather that to Mary as an intercessor is unfounded. You may believe it but Jesus never said it.
I asked, and you ignored, if you ever contemplated Jesus’ first miracle. If you ever did, you should have come to the realization that Jesus did not want to perform a miracle but at the request of His mother he did so.

You though you had us by asking if we would pray to anyone else (dead give away that you are not a Catholic). All Saints are in a better position than people you would ask on earth to pray for you to intercede with Jesus for us.
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Mat 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Rom 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

There is clear instruction on how and who to pray to.
 
You failed to answer the question I put to you.
You quickly threw in all sort of accusations that ignorant protestants use. Your language and reasoning smacks of a person who has had no contact with the Catholic religion. Are you using I am Catholic in a different way than we do to fool us? Are you in union with the Pope?
We do not worship Mary. If you were a Catholic, you would know that. By the way, your statement that Jesus wishes us to come directly to him in prayer, rather that to Mary as an intercessor is unfounded. You may believe it but Jesus never said it.
I asked, and you ignored, if you ever contemplated Jesus’ first miracle. If you ever did, you should have come to the realization that Jesus did not want to perform a miracle but at the request of His mother he did so.
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You though you had us by asking if we would pray to anyone else (dead give away that you are not a Catholic). All Saints are in a better position than people you would ask on earth to pray for you to intercede with Jesus for us.
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