Who taught Communion of the Saints?

[dje101]

Hey guys and gals,

I’ve been talking with my brother about the Communion of the Saints. We both come from a Protestant background, so he is having a really hard time with the idea of praying to (or through, depending on who’s def we’re going on) the saints because it is not explicitly stated in the Bible (still very much sola scriptura). I asked him the other day, “if there were early church fathers who still agreed and taught the Communion of the Saints, would you accept it?” He said that he would be more inclined to.

So my question is, does anyone know of early church fathers (as early as possible) who agreed with the communion of the saints/praying to the saints? and either direct me toward links of their biography/teachings or just provide some of their quotes in your answer? Thanks a bunch!!

God Bless

 

[po18guy]

It is contained in the Apostle’s Creed, which was settled upon in about 390 AD, in response to heresy. As to praying to Saints, a couple of reasons come directly to mind: In the transfiguration, Jesus was shown speaking to a living Moses and Elijah, not dead men. In Matthew 22:32, Mark 12:27 and Luke 20:38, Jesus told the Sadducees that they were greatly mistaken - that, to God, all are living. There’s more to it than that, but this is a start.

Do you have Catholicism for Dummies? I can highly recommend this book. Every Catholic should have a copy. It will explain and answer nearly every question about Catholicism.

 

[pablope]

Hey guys and gals,

I’ve been talking with my brother about the Communion of the Saints. We both come from a Protestant background, so he is having a really hard time with the idea of praying to (or through, depending on who’s def we’re going on) the saints because it is not explicitly stated in the Bible (still very much sola scriptura). I asked him the other day, “if there were early church fathers who still agreed and taught the Communion of the Saints, would you accept it?” He said that he would be more inclined to.

So my question is, does anyone know of early church fathers (as early as possible) who agreed with the communion of the saints/praying to the saints? and either direct me toward links of their biography/teachings or just provide some of their quotes in your answer? Thanks a bunch!!

God Bless

check this blog: thefathersknowbest.com/

Link to the article:catholic.com/thisrock/2006/0610fea3.asp

The Fathers Know Best

I shall finally respond here to the objection that Catholic practice regarding saints is a later accretion to authentic Christianity, a distortion of what the early Church believed. We should bear in mind that the Church does not wish to discard its ancient beliefs, nor does it desire to cling only to the practices of the early Christians. To reject the teachings of the Fathers would be to reject the orthodox foundations of the faith, and to maintain only the practices of the early Church would be to deny its organic growth. We might remember, for example, that the Nicene Creed was not formulated until the fourth century. While on the one hand we see St. John of Damascus warning that it is not “a thing of no matter to give up the ancient tradition of the Church held by our forefathers, whose conduct we should observe, and whose faith we should imitate,” we also see Pope Pius XII in his beautiful encyclical Mediator Dei reprimanding those “who are bent on the restoration of all the ancient rites and ceremonies indiscriminately” (MD 61). Catholic belief holds that the foundation of the early Fathers is the seminary from which the Church grows, maturing through time. For Catholics, there is no rupture in Church teaching and tradition from the death of Christ to today, and this includes prayer to saints.

Beside the scriptural precedents for praying to the saints in heaven, several early Church Fathers wrote of the need to seek their intercession. The third-century bishop and martyr St. Cyprian of Carthage wrote:

Let us remember one another in concord and unanimity. Let us on both sides [of life and death] always pray for one another. Let us relieve burdens and afflictions by mutual love, that if one of us, by the swiftness of divine condescension, shall go hence first, our love may continue in the presence of the Lord and our prayers for our brethren and sisters not cease in the presence of the Father’s mercy. (Letters 56[60]:5)

And St. Clement of Alexandria, also from the third century, said:

In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]. (Miscellanies 7:12)

Besides Cyprian and Clement of Alexandria, other early Fathers noted the importance of praying to the saints—Augustine of Hippo, Origen, Methodius, Cyril of Jerusalem, Hilary of Poitiers, and so forth. It is simply unhistorical to claim that prayer to the saints is a later Catholic invention; historical evidence suggests that it was not until the Reformation that this practice was abandoned by Protestants.

Is it acceptable, then, to pray to St. Joseph for help selling your house? Absolutely. Do some Catholics stray into the realm of superstition in their devotion to the saints? Yes. How do we know the difference? The final question confronting any Christian—Catholic or otherwise—is whether the Triune God is the height and center of his prayer and worship. He should be. But let us also remember the saints in heaven who have been perfected by God’s radiance and whose love for us makes them powerful advocates of our causes here on earth. As the Second Vatican Council says:

Being more closely united to Christ, those who dwell in heaven fix the whole Church more firmly in holiness. . . . They do not cease to intercede with the Father for us, as they proffer the merits that they acquired on earth through the one mediator between God and men, Christ Jesus. . . . So by their fraternal concern is our weakness greatly helped. (Lumen Gentium 49)

Anyone who has received the aid of a saint smiles knowingly as he passes such a statue as the one of St. Anthony decorated with notes of gratitude. And, yes, St. Joseph may, in the end, be our best real estate agent. All you holy saints in heaven, ora pro nobis!

 

[pablope]

Hey guys and gals,

So my question is, does anyone know of early church fathers (as early as possible) who agreed with the communion of the saints/praying to the saints? and either direct me toward links of their biography/teachings or just provide some of their quotes in your answer? Thanks a bunch!!

God Bless

freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1781591/posts

Quotes from the Fathers:

Catholic Answers: The Intercession of the Saints:
catholic.com/library/Intercession_of_the_Saints.asp

Joe Gallegos: Veneration and Invocation of the Saints:
cin.org/users/jgallegos/saints.htm

bridegroompress.com/sc/comsaint.htm

I found this great site:

catholicfidelity.com/apologetics-topics/church-fathers/the-witness-of-the-church-fathers-with-regard-to-catholic-distinctives/

Excerpt:

VI. History of the Doctrine of the Communion of Saints

In the Catacombs underneath Rome (which date back to the earliest Christian period), inscriptions are frequently found on tombs which appeal to dead Christians, such as: “Ask for us in thy prayers, for we know thou art with Christ.” Even the eminent Protestant church historian Philip Schaff, who is openly hostile to such practices, admits this. (110)

The oldest testimony in the Fathers for the veneration of saints occurs around 156 in The Martyrdom of Polycarp (17:3):

[Christ] we worship as the Son of God; but the Martyrs we love as disciples and imitators of the Lord; and rightly so, because of their unsurpassable devotion to their own King and Teacher.

In the same work (18:2), it is recounted how the Christians of Smyrna collected the bones of St. Polycarp, “more precious than the richest jewels and more tried than gold.” (111)

St. Jerome later defended the veneration of relics against the charge of idolatry, (112) and St. Augustine, (113) Theodoret of Cyr, (114) Pope St. Gregory the Great, (115) and St. John Damascene (116) also sanctioned this practice.

Around 204, St. Hippolytus, commenting on Daniel 11:30, addresses Daniel’s three companions with the invocation, “Think of me, I beseech you, so that I may achieve with you the same fate of martyrdom.” (117) This is the first attestation of invocation of the saints among the Fathers. Origen (d.c.254), believed that “the angels and the souls of the pious who sleep pray.” (118)

 

[thistle]

Hey guys and gals,

I’ve been talking with my brother about the Communion of the Saints. We both come from a Protestant background, so he is having a really hard time with the idea of praying to (or through, depending on who’s def we’re going on) the saints because it is not explicitly stated in the Bible (still very much sola scriptura). I asked him the other day, “if there were early church fathers who still agreed and taught the Communion of the Saints, would you accept it?” He said that he would be more inclined to.

So my question is, does anyone know of early church fathers (as early as possible) who agreed with the communion of the saints/praying to the saints? and either direct me toward links of their biography/teachings or just provide some of their quotes in your answer? Thanks a bunch!!

God Bless

Which Protestant background do you come from? Its not only Catholics who believe in the Communion of Saints. Methodists, Lutherans and Anglicans also say the Creed which includes belief in the Communion of Saints.

 

[dje101]

Which Protestant background do you come from? Its not only Catholics who believe in the Communion of Saints. Methodists, Lutherans and Anglicans also say the Creed which includes belief in the Communion of Saints.

Pentecostal background. Went to a baptist church one Sunday, and a Non-Denom but all of them were a little…off. Pentecostals believed that the only proof of Baptism by the Holy Spirit was speaking in tongues, the the Non-Denom closed after the Pastor found the elders of the church worshiping another god at one of their houses. :nope:

 

[po18guy]

Pentecostal background. Went to a baptist church one Sunday, and a Non-Denom but all of them were a little…off. Pentecostals believed that the only proof of Baptism by the Holy Spirit was speaking in tongues, the the Non-Denom closed after the Pastor found the elders of the church worshiping another god at one of their houses. :nope:

As a Pentecostal, you might be very interested in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal. The preacher of the Pope’s household, Fr. Raniero Cantalamessa, is a charismatic. It is said that the Holy Spirit is the forgotten member of the Trinity, and I believe it. Not in my house, though! Allow me to say that the Catholic Church will be forever incomplete without you.

 

[Asteriktos]

Others have already given links/patristic quotes that I would have given, but I would add that, while it’s hard to make a case for praying to saints from Scripture alone, I think you can at least make a strong case for the saints being concious in the afterlife (and not in some type of soul sleep), which might also be helpful. For example…

“And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.” - Rev. 6:9-11

“After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.” - Rev. 7:9-15

These saints are aware of what is going on, and this is before the final resurrection. They “serve him day and night in his temple,” indicating that this is something that is an ongoing activity. Notice also that these saints in heaven can communicate with God, and God can communicate with them as well. Also consider the time when Moses and Elijah appeared at the transfiguration (Matt. 17:1-9; Lk. 9:28-36).

Fwiw, we can also show that the Angels pray for us. One example of this is seen in Zechariah, when an angel of God intercedes before God for Jerusalem and Judah: “Then the angel of the Lord answered and said, O Lord of hosts, how long wilt thou not have mercy on Jerusalem and on the cities of Judah, against which thou hast had indignation these threescore and ten years?” (Zec. 1:12) There is also the passage in the deuterocanonical book of Tobit, where the Archangel Raphael clearly says that he prays to God for people (Tob. 12:12-15), which might not be especially convincing to a Protestant, but at least it shows that at least some of the Jews of that (pre-Christian) time believed in that sort of thing, and it wasn’t just made up out of thin air later on.

 

[Link0126]

Not everything on here will be helpful. I feel he stretches the scriptures sometimes. Some are good though. At the very least there are quotes from Church Fathers.

scripturecatholic.com/saints.html

 

[TrueLight]

Others have already given links/patristic quotes that I would have given, but I would add that, while it’s hard to make a case for praying to saints from Scripture alone, I think you can at least make a strong case for the saints being concious in the afterlife (and not in some type of soul sleep), which might also be helpful. For example…

This is not a response to you alone. I just like some of your quotes.

And I understand the Communion of Saints is a mandatory belief , but I don’t understand it.

It’s one thing to say the Saints are conscious. It’s another to say they can hear our individual prayers. I’m positive the saints are conscious and praising God. They may even be observing world events on some sort of giant heavenly flatscreen TV.

Why do we assume that they are like God in that they hear individual prayers? Maybe prayers of the Church in general, but TrueLight’s prayer? I don’t know about that.

I have heard it said that they are outside of time and space. How do we know that? The following quote shows they are not outside of time and space.

“And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.” - Rev. 6:9-11

I would love to think I can speak to the saints or angels like St Michael (I love this archangel), but I don’t think there is any proof that they hear individual prayers.

And the fact that Church fathers ratified this belief in the third century? Well, that is too late in time.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

Consider

…39 And all these, though well attested by their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40 since God had foreseen something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect. http://jmom.honlam.org/rsvce/119heb.html#0

Chapter 12

1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us, 2* looking to Jesus the pioneer and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God…

Hebrews 11:39-12:2 I would suggest that the witnesses are the saints who are cheering us on.

 

[convert999]

One verse that helped me along the path to acceptance was Hebrews12:1.

“Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us rid ourselves of every burden and sin that clings to us and persevere in running the race that lies before us.”
In context, Chapter 11 discusses martyred saints.

I used to have trouble with the idea that the saints hear our individual prayers, too. I finally came to the conclusion that to say they are unable to hear us is denying the power of God. If it is God’s will that Mary and the saints can hear our prayers, certainly He is able to accomplish this. Given the fact that God can do whatever He wants, then my acceptance of this doctrine comes down to this: a. I say they can’t hear me. or b. the Church says they can. In the end, as usual, the real issue is with the authority of the Church to declare doctrine.

I have had some amazing answers to prayer after praying through saints. While still a Protestant, I would preface these prayers with a little disclaimer to Jesus. “If this offends you, Lord, let me know by not answering this prayer.” He didn’t seem to mind!

Having said that, we aren’t required to pray to/through saints. It’s something I grew into as time passed. God bless!

 

[TrueLight]

One verse that helped me along the path to acceptance was Hebrews12:1.

“Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us rid ourselves of every burden and sin that clings to us and persevere in running the race that lies before us.”
In context, Chapter 11 discusses martyred saints.

I used to have trouble with the idea that the saints hear our individual prayers, too. I finally came to the conclusion that to say they are unable to hear us is denying the power of God. If it is God’s will that Mary and the saints can hear our prayers, certainly He is able to accomplish this. Given the fact that God can do whatever He wants, then my acceptance of this doctrine comes down to this: a. I say they can’t hear me. or b. the Church says they can. In the end, as usual, the real issue is with the authority of the Church to declare doctrine.

I have had some amazing answers to prayer after praying through saints. While still a Protestant, I would preface these prayers with a little disclaimer to Jesus. “If this offends you, Lord, let me know by not answering this prayer.” He didn’t seem to mind!

Having said that, we aren’t required to pray to/through saints. It’s something I grew into as time passed. God bless!

Thanks for sharing your personal experience. God is able to make a roach speak Spanish if he wants, but does he do that?

As you said it always boils down to church authority in the end.

 

[pablope]

This is not a response to you alone. I just like some of your quotes.

And I understand the Communion of Saints is a mandatory belief , but I don’t understand it.

It’s one thing to say the Saints are conscious. It’s another to say they can hear our individual prayers. I’m positive the saints are conscious and praising God. They may even be observing world events on some sort of giant heavenly flatscreen TV.

Why do we assume that they are like God in that they hear individual prayers? Maybe prayers of the Church in general, but TrueLight’s prayer? I don’t know about that.

I have heard it said that they are outside of time and space. How do we know that? The following quote shows they are not outside of time and space.

I would love to think I can speak to the saints or angels like St Michael (I love this archangel), but I don’t think there is any proof that they hear individual prayers.

And the fact that Church fathers ratified this belief in the third century? Well, that is too late in time.

From: Matthew 22:30

30"For in the resurrection they neither (A)marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.

Those in heaven get angelic qualities, so saints can hear prayers, as willed by God.

 

[MontChevalier]

It is contained in the Apostle’s Creed, which was settled upon in about 390 AD, in response to heresy. As to praying to Saints, a couple of reasons come directly to mind: In the transfiguration, Jesus was shown speaking to a living Moses and Elijah, not dead men. In Matthew 22:32, Mark 12:27 and Luke 20:38, Jesus told the Sadducees that they were greatly mistaken - that, to God, all are living. There’s more to it than that, but this is a start.

Do you have Catholicism for Dummies? I can highly recommend this book. Every Catholic should have a copy. It will explain and answer nearly every question about Catholicism.

I think Saints for Dummies might be more appropriate for what he’s looking for. His brother wants more information on the whole Saints thing.

 

[TrueLight]

From: Matthew 22:30

30"For in the resurrection they neither (A)marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.

Those in heaven get angelic qualities, so saints can hear prayers, as willed by God.

Okay. That would be a good point except…do angels hear individual prayers or collective prayers?

 

[convert999]

Thanks for sharing your personal experience. God is able to make a roach speak Spanish if he wants, but does he do that?

Gee, I sure hope not. I saw one at a donut shop a couple of weeks ago, but it didn’t say anything.

Hope I did the quote thing right. I’m technology-impaired.

 

[dje101]

Okay. That would be a good point except…do angels hear individual prayers or collective prayers?

Good question. The first thing that pops into my mind was when Jesus was talking about our guardian angels. If we each have a guardian angel, then it is possible for them to hear individual prayers as there is always one angel with us.

It made sense to me, I hope that it is a logical thought

 

[TrueLight]

TrueLight;7758994:

Thanks for sharing your personal experience. God is able to make a roach speak Spanish if he wants, but does he do that?

Gee, I sure hope not. I saw one at a donut shop a couple of weeks ago, but it didn’t say anything.

Hope I did the quote thing right. I’m technology-impaired.

Yuk at the donut shop roach.

Whenever you end the quote, you use this** **

If you don’t close it, then the quote doesn’t show up properly.

 

[TrueLight]

Good question. The first thing that pops into my mind was when Jesus was talking about our guardian angels. If we each have a guardian angel, then it is possible for them to hear individual prayers as there is always one angel with us.

It made sense to me, I hope that it is a logical thought

Can you give me a reference to the statement made by Jesus about guardian angels? I can’t believe I never saw that.