Who was the Rock in Matthew 16:18?

[Prodigal_Son1]

Well as far as the Church’s involvement in US democracy as it relates to carrying out the faith, actually there was a time when most Catholics actually were more liberal and voted so. Those were the old days when the Church seemed to place greater emphasis on Matt 25:35 - 46 for instance and less on the issues it does today. But I suppose it depends on who’s in charge at any given time. Or who the rock is just to keep on topic. Peace.

Are you trying to insinuate that the Catholic Church no longer ‘feeds the poor’, etc. etc.? And doesn’t it make you a leader of sorts when you reject an authority, especially when you go public to try and influence others that you are correct over an accepted authority?

 

[Javl]

teneas:

don’t hold your breath. I’m still waiting for answers to my questions.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[gospelofmark]

usually catholics are portrayed as not knowing the bible, looking through this thread its the catholics that have provided scripture verses and church fathers to back up their position, which seems very reasonable to me. the others dont have much to offer except to say they believe in Jesus or lets have peace. its having your cake and eat it too, i can believe and act as i please and still go to heaven, this is the broad road that leads to distruction, our Lord said the way is narrow. god bless.

 

[Teneas]

teneas:

don’t hold your breath. I’m still waiting for answers to my questions.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

There is still hope! She hasn’t logged back in yet that I know of. I want the answer to it, or admitting that she simply won’t give one.

 

[Javl]

There is still hope! She hasn’t logged back in yet that I know of. I want the answer to it, or admitting that she simply won’t give one.

I’ve never been able to get a direct answer to my question. I’ve asked it of "sola scriptura " adherents who say the Peter is not the rock, but Jesus is, and have yet to receive some sort of satisfactory answer. Oh, well. I’ll just keep trying. No one will admit they’re wrong.

PX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Bill_Pick]

Christ chose a specific location to announce He was building His Church, Caesarea Philippi.

Originally, Caesarea Philippi was named Panion, which is the City of Pan. Pan was the Greek God of shepherds and flocks, among other things.

Below is something a friend of mine wrote on another forum and it articulates it much better than I can.

The Petros issue, my friend brings up, has been discussed by Protestants who claim Petros means ‘little rock’, and it does. Petra in Greek means mass of rock. They argue that if Christ had meant to build His Church upon Peter, He would have named Him Petra. The problem here lays with the times and gender nouns. That is Matthew chose Petros, which is in the masculine and Petra is feminine. It’s similar to the Spanish language where you have gender nouns, for example el gato is masculine for cat and la gata is feminine for cat. Matthew could not have referred to Peter as feminine, especially in those times. But going beyond the gender nouns, as my friend points out, Christ spoke primarily Aramaic, where there is one word for rock and that is ‘Kepha’.

I hope I have provided enough foundation for a discussion. I have scriptures and writings of the early Church fathers that support the Catholic view of Peter being the rock on which Christ built His Church, and will share those as the discussion progresses.

You get a A+FOR THIS POST

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

It’s interesting how this topic re-appears every once in a while and the discussion usually goes no where. Be that as it may the argument of Petra vs Petros and the whole gender justification for Peter being the Rock holds no water at all. Christ may have spoken in Aramaic although we don’t know for sure given the Helenization of Jews in that area. But let’s assume Jesus did speak Aramaic, the simple fact is the Gospels are written in Greek so we only have those versions to try and interpret what Matthew was writing.

If Matthew had intended on communicating to us that Jesus was founding his church on Peter the Rock then Jesus simply would have stated “you are Petros and on this Petros or on you Petros I will build my church”. This doesn’t happen and in fact the Greek is not structured in a way to reveal Peter as the Rock. The emphasis of the conversation is in the question Christ poses to the Apostles that of “who do you say that I am”. In answering that Jesus is the Messiah the Son of GOD, Jesus then states that this is the rock upon which the church will be built. Not on Peter the person but what Peter stated.

PEACE

Mat 16:17 And Jesus answering said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven.
Mat 16:18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Mat 16:19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven..

(IGNT+) καιG2532 AND αποκριθειςG611 [G5679] οG3588 ANSWERING ιησουςG2424 JESUS ειπενG2036 [G5627] SAID αυτωG846 TO HIM, μακαριοςG3107 BLESSED ειG1488 [G5748] ART THOU, σιμωνG4613 βαρG920 SIMON ιωναG920G2495 BAR - JONAH, οτιG3754 FOR σαρξG4561 FLESH καιG2532 AND αιμαG129 ουκG3756 BLOOD απεκαλυψενG601 [G5656] REVEALED “IT” NOT σοιG4671 TO THEE, αλλG235 οG3588 BUT πατηρG3962 μουG3450 MY FATHER οG3588 WHO “IS” ενG1722 IN τοιςG3588 THE ουρανοιςG3772 HEAVENS.

(IGNT+) καγωG2504 δεG1161 AND I ALSO σοιG4671 TO THEE λεγωG3004 [G5719] SAY, οτιG3754 THAT συG4771 THOU ειG1488 [G5748] ART πετροςG4074 PETER, καιG2532 AND επιG1909 ON ταυτηG3778 τηG3588 THIS πετραG4073 ROCK οικοδομησωG3618 [G5692] I WILL BUILD μουG3450 τηνG3588 MY εκκλησιανG1577 ASSEMBLY, καιG2532 AND πυλαιG4439 GATES αδουG86 ουG3756 OF HADES κατισχυσουσινG2729 [G5692] SHALL NOT PREVAIL AGAINST αυτηςG846 IT.

(IGNT+) καιG2532 AND δωσωG1325 [G5692] I WILL GIVE σοιG4671 TO THEE ταςG3588 THE κλειςG2807 KEYS τηςG3588 OF THE βασιλειαςG932 KINGDOM τωνG3588 OF THE ουρανωνG3772 HEAVENS : καιG2532 AND οG3739 εανG1437 WHATEVER δησηςG1210 [G5661] THOU MAYEST BIND επιG1909 ON τηςG3588 THE γηςG1093 EARTH, εσταιG2071 [G5704] SHALL BE δεδεμενονG1210 [G5772] BOUND ενG1722 IN τοιςG3588 THE ουρανοιςG3772 HEAVENS; καιG2532 AND οG3739 εανG1437 WHATEVER λυσηςG3089 [G5661] THOU MAYEST LOOSE επιG1909 ON τηςG3588 THE γηςG1093 EARTH, εσταιG2071 [G5704] SHALL BE λελυμενονG3089 [G5772] LOOSED ενG1722 IN τοιςG3588 THE ουρανοιςG3772 HEAVENS.

Now you have it in English and in Greek. Jesus said, ‘I say to THEE that THOU art…’ He does not say, ‘What you SAID is…’ or ‘your FAITH is rock…’

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

But let’s assume Jesus did speak Aramaic, the simple fact is the Gospels are written in Greek so we only have those versions to try and interpret what Matthew was writing.

Mar 5:41 And taking the damsel by the hand, he saith to her: Talitha cumi, which is, being interpreted: Damsel (I say to thee) arise.

Mar 7:34 And looking up to heaven, he groaned and said to him: Ephpheta, which is, Be thou opened.

Mar 14:36 And he saith: Abba, Father, all things are possible to thee: remove this chalice from me; but not what I will, but what thou wilt.

Mat 5:22 But I say to you, that whosoever is angry with his brother, shall be in danger of the judgment. And whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council. And whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Mat 6:24 No man can serve two masters. For either he will hate the one, and love the other: or he will sustain the one, and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.

Luk 16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one and love the other: or he will hold to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.

Joh 20:16 Jesus saith to her: Mary. She turning, saith to him: Rabboni (which is to say, Master).

Mar 10:51 And Jesus answering, said to him: What wilt thou that I should do to thee? And the blind man said to him: Rabboni. That I may see.

Below, two authors of the Gospels wrote the same phrase, one in Hebrew, one in Aramaic.

Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour, Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying: Eli, Eli, lamma sabacthani? That is, My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Mar 15:34 And at the ninth hour, Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying: Eloi, Eloi, lamma sabacthani? Which is, being interpreted: My God, My God, Why hast thou forsaken me?

Mat 27:6 But the chief priests having taken the pieces of silver, said: It is not lawful to put them into the corbona, because it is the price of blood.

Mar 7:11 But you say: If a man shall say to his father or mother, Corban (which is a gift) whatsoever is from me shall profit thee.

*In Aramaic (???) it refers to the treasury in the Temple in Jerusalem, derived from the Hebrew Korban (???), found in Mark 7:11 and the Septuagint (in Greek transliteration), meaning religious gift.

The Greek ???ßa??? is declined as a Greek noun. Greeks regularly added endings to Semitic and Hebrew words when transliterating Hebrew words in the Septuagint.*

Joh 1:42 And he brought him to Jesus. And Jesus looking upon him, said: Thou art Simon the son of Jona. Thou shalt be called Cephas, which is interpreted Peter.

1Co 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith: I indeed am of Paul; and I am of Apollo; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

Mat 26:36 Then Jesus came with them into a country place which is called Gethsemani. And he said to his disciples: Sit you here, till I go yonder and pray.

Mar 14:32 And they came to a farm called Gethsemani. And he saith to his disciples: Sit you here, while I pray.

Mar 15:22 And they bring him into the place called Golgotha, which being interpreted is, The place of Calvary.

Joh 19:17 And bearing his own cross, he went forth to the place which is called Calvary, but in Hebrew Golgotha.

*This is clearly Aramaic rather than Hebrew. ‘Gûlgaltâ’ is the Aramaic for ‘skull’. The name appears in all of the gospels except Luke, which calls the place simply Kranion ‘the Skull’, with no Aramaic. The name ‘Calvary’ is taken from the Latin Vulgate translation, Calvaria.

In Aramaic, it could be ???.*

 

[MacDaddy]

When does the question of Peter being greater than anyone comes in here, a question asked to denote who would be sitting next to God, who would be in heaven. It was not a question of leadership definitely.

Even if we were to concede that the question was about leadership, which definitely was not, Peter was still different from the rest of the apostles by virtue of the changing of his name and the natural leadership position he took after the resurrection. He was given the key to the Kingdom, to loose and to bound, and to feed the sheep. Besides of course being the rock upon which the Lord’s church is built.

At that time the disciples came to Jesus and said, “Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”

"Whoever then humbles himself as this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

"But the greatest among you shall be your servant.

But they kept silent, for on the way they had discussed with one another which {of them was} the greatest.

An argument started among them as to which of them might be the greatest.

And there arose also a dispute among them {as to} which one of them was regarded to be greatest.

24 And there arose also a dispute among them {as to} which one of them was regarded to be greatest. 25 And He said to them, "The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who have authority over them are called ‘Benefactors.’ 26*** "But {it is} not this way with you, but the one who is the greatest among you must become like the youngest, and the leader like the servant.* ** 27 "For who is greater, the one who reclines {at the table} or the one who serves? Is it not the one who reclines {at the table?} But I am among you as the one who serves. 28 "You are those who have stood by Me in My trials; 29 and just as My Father has granted Me a kingdom, ***I grant you 30 that you may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom, and you will sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. ***

 

[MacDaddy]

I think it is you who pick and choose. Verse 17, 18 and 19 were spoken in a single quote which was addressed to Peter. You cannot change that unless if you have a different Bible than us.

I am surprised at you Protestants who are supposed to be very strict about adding and minus something from the Bible. Jesus was speaking to Peter; even if his address included the rest of the apostles, you cannot deny the fact that it was Peter whom he talked to in responding to Peter’s declaration that Jesus is the Messiah.

No one disagrees with that, but it was a simple play on words, Petro (noun Masculin) & Petra (noun feminine) , with the Gospel of Christ or Christ as the Petra as the rest of Scripture confirms. The key to heaven is but one, therefore the keys are given to each of them and this is how history has played out; how one denies this by simple observation is kind of mind boggling. Just as the great commission, applies not only to the Apostles, but all Christians. Looking past this, numerous times Jesus referred to Peter as Simon Simon or Simon Peter, which is the same as saying Peter Peter since Simon means Peter, so where exactly is the name change?

 

[MacDaddy]

As for the rest of your post I don’t see how that can contradict Peter as the rock or as the first Pope.

Your last paragraph is trying to dwell on something that is not there. Whether Peter had lost favour or not, does not in anyway abrogate what Jesus had said in Mt 16:17-19.

In fact you defend my argument when you say that Jesus restored Peter in the light of his denial. The pronouncement to Peter in 16:17-19 was never rescinded in anyway but actually confirmed and restored by the commissioning of feeding the sheep.

Now that makes since, Peter is the only one responsible for feeding sheep? Think about that. Read the Pastoral epistles if 1 & 2 timothy and Titus and see if it applies to Peter only.

 

[MacDaddy]

Well, no ‘faith’ was mentioned in Mt16:17-19 but Peter the rock upon which the church will be built.

I don’t have problem with the statement of faith (by Peter) as mentioned (by me) earlier on. But the verses concerned were clear and obvious - no faith was mentioned. If you see faith which was not said but overlook Peter as the rock which was said, then I am quite confused by the way you understand the Bible.

BTW, it is not strictly faith per se. As Jesus said, the words that came from Peter’s lips were revealed from the Father in heaven, so it is not so much as a personal word that came from Peter without the intervention of the Father. But like I said, I have no problem if you say it’s a statement of Peter’s faith (by Peter).

But it doesn’t say that, Petro and Petra are not the same thing; not even close. One refers to a hugh rock bed foundation, like the seed that fell on rocky ground in the Parable of the Soils, the other is a stone. If I throw one stone at you, you would probably live, but If I rolled a Petra over you…splat! No more you.

Here is another reason it isn’t Peter; “For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is** {Peter?}**Jesus Christ.”

 

[Teneas]

But it doesn’t say that, Petro and Petra are not the same thing; not even close. One refers to a hugh rock bed foundation, like the seed that fell on rocky ground in the Parable of the Soils, the other is a stone. If I throw one stone at you, you would probably live, but If I rolled a Petra over you…splat! No more you.

Here is another reason it isn’t Peter; “For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is** {Peter?}**Jesus Christ.”

So, Jesus said he will build his church on the rock that he stood on huh?

 

[MacDaddy]

But my point is, how is birth control not in scriptures, but considered ok, and the perpetual viriginity not explicit in scriptures yet considered wrong by some?

If it is not explicit or very implicit, we don’t add. So we don’t add “the use of” or “non use of birth control” nor do we add the perpetual virginity, when the explicit evidence is she had other children. Birth control is an issue of the conscience unless it was illegal because we are commanded to obey government unless it is a direct violation of God’s Word. An example would be abortion, it is legal, but it is murder, therefore God’s law overides man’s law. If your conscience says it is wrong, then don’t do it and no one should judge you for that decision and vice versa. I understand the specific issue with Tweety because of the Catholic rules against it, but I have never met a Catholic yet that did not pick and choose. I’m not saying there aren’t any, just not any i have met and known.

 

[Teneas]

I don’t think I have insulted you, and if you think so, I am truly sorry. I do not get upset in my posts, nor do I think anyone should. If we are all Christians, whether Catholic or not, we should be civil in our talks. I have merely asked you to answer a question that you will not answer. You will not own up to your own beliefs.

Again: Do you, or do you not think that stopping the “two things” from meeting is stopping life from happening?!

It’s not a hard question for anyone, and you know the answer, you just won’t give it. I don’t mean my answer, I mean yours. 70 year old grandmother or not, I am not trying to bash you, or insult you, in fact I respect you greatly for coming here and taking the heat you take. For putting yourself out there. I just want to see you stand up completely for what you believe.

Answer my question and you have my respect. Don’t answer it, and we all know you don’t really believe in what you say. It’s pretty simple.

again, no insults have I thrown in the slightest bit. I get to the point where I am hurling insults then Christ is not represented in what I write, and I will log off for a good long time

This was my own post, just bumping it, as I really really want a firm answer from Tweety about this.

 

[MacDaddy]

Yes, Jesus may be a rock for you, but what about his renaming simon Bar-Johnah as rock? What was His purpose in doing that? It wasn’t necessary if he was going to build His Church on Simon Bar-Jonah’s faith alone. The other Apostles confessed the same faith and He didn’t rename any of them.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Except, In John 21
Jesus said to Simon Peter,1) “Simon, son of John, do you love Me more than these?” …2) "Simon, son of John, do you love Me? 3) “Simon, son of John, do you love Me?”

Elsewhere long after Matthew 16 Jesus call Him Simon, Simon Peter and Simon Simon, which all mean Peter. Where exactly is that real name change? Maybe Peter lost his salvation?

 

[tweetymom]

I don’t think I have insulted you, and if you think so, I am truly sorry. I do not get upset in my posts, nor do I think anyone should. If we are all Christians, whether Catholic or not, we should be civil in our talks. I have merely asked you to answer a question that you will not answer. You will not own up to your own beliefs.

Again: Do you, or do you not think that stopping the “two things” from meeting is stopping life from happening?!

It’s not a hard question for anyone, and you know the answer, you just won’t give it. I don’t mean my answer, I mean yours. 70 year old grandmother or not, I am not trying to bash you, or insult you, in fact I respect you greatly for coming here and taking the heat you take. For putting yourself out there. I just want to see you stand up completely for what you believe.

Answer my question and you have my respect. Don’t answer it, and we all know you don’t really believe in what you say. It’s pretty simple.

again, no insults have I thrown in the slightest bit. I get to the point where I am hurling insults then Christ is not represented in what I write, and I will log off for a good long time

NO i donot think that stopping 2 things from meeting is stopping life. There is no life until they co mingle

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

But it doesn’t say that, Petro and Petra are not the same thing; not even close. One refers to a hugh rock bed foundation, like the seed that fell on rocky ground in the Parable of the Soils, the other is a stone. If I throw one stone at you, you would probably live, but If I rolled a Petra over you…splat! No more you.

Here is another reason it isn’t Peter; “For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is** {Peter?}**Jesus Christ.”

Hey Mac,

It’s quite evident you’re not reading some of the posts. I have explained the differences of Petros and Petra. The Greek language, like the Spanish language, uses gender nouns. Petros is the masculine sense of rock, while Petra is the feminine sense of rock. Now, do you really think Matthew would have referred to Simon in the feminine sense?

The argument becomes moot when one considers our Lord spoke primarily Aramaic, where there is only ONE word for rock, Kephas.

Please be fair in the discussion and read through. I’d really be interested in seeing your ‘direct’ response to issues already discussed, as opposed to repeated assertions already responded too.

 

[Teneas]

NO i donot think that stopping 2 things from meeting is stopping life. There is no life until they co mingle

So, by your own definition

There is no life until they co mingle

But, stopping those two things from meeting is not stopping life?!

 

[MacDaddy]

**Mat 16:18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Mat 16:19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

Luk 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and thou, being once converted, confirm thy brethren.

Joh 21:17 He said to him the third time: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he had said to him the third time: Lovest thou me? And he said to him: Lord, thou knowest all things: thou knowest that I love thee. He said to him: Feed my sheep.**

Peter’s name always leads when the list of Apostles are named in scriptures.

**Mat 10:1 And having called his twelve disciples together, he gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of diseases, and all manner of infirmities.
Mat 10:2 And the names of the twelve Apostles are these: The first, Simon who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother,
Mat 10:3 James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, Philip and Bartholomew, Thomas and Matthew the publican, and James the son of Alpheus, and Thaddeus,
Mat 10:4 Simon the Cananean, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.

Mar 3:16 And to Simon he gave the name Peter:
Mar 3:17 And James the son of Zebedee, and John the brother of James; and he named them Boanerges, which is, The sons of thunder.
Mar 3:18 And Andrew and Philip, and Bartholomew and Matthew, and Thomas and James of Alpheus, and Thaddeus and Simon the Cananean:
Mar 3:19 And Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.

Luk 6:14 Simon, whom he surnamed Peter, and Andrew his brother, James and John, Philip and Bartholomew,
Luk 6:15 Matthew and Thomas, James the son of Alpheus, and Simon who is called Zelotes,
Luk 6:16 And Jude the brother of James, and Judas Iscariot, who was the traitor.

Act 1:13 And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode Peter and John, James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James of Alpheus and Simon Zelotes and Jude the brother of James.**

There are times Peter is called by name and those with him are referred too as companions by group name.

**Luk 9:32 But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep. And waking, they saw his glory and the two men that stood with him.

Mar 16:7 But go, tell his disciples and Peter that he goeth before you into Galilee. There you shall see him, as he told you.**

Peter always spoke for the Apostles.

**Mat 18:21 Then came Peter unto him and said: Lord, how often shall my brother offend against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?

Mar 8:29 Then he saith to them: But whom do you say that I am? Peter answering said to him: Thou art the Christ.

Luk 8:45 And Jesus said: Who is it that touched me? And all denying, Peter and they that were with him said: Master, the multitudes throng and press thee; and dost thou say, who touched me?

Luk 12:41 And Peter said to him: Lord, dost thou speak this parable to us, or likewise to all?

Joh 6:68 (6:69) And Simon Peter answered him: Lord, to whom shall we go? Thou hast the words of eternal life.**

Peter’s name appears 195 times in the New Testament, more than all the other Apostles being mentioned together.

Peter 156 times Paul 160 times