Who was the Rock in Matthew 16:18?

[AwGusTeen]

Peter’s faith is the rock and Jesus is my rock.

Care to prove the first part of the statement, tweety?

 

[tweetymom]

Care to prove the first part of the statement, tweety?

I don’t have to prove them in many verses Jesus is the rock. Jesus is my rock not Peter. B ut hey if you believe that then glory to you, you have my blessings to believe what you may.

 

[AwGusTeen]

Thanks again. Hey I never thought of that idea that they are not Catholics either. See the problem is if you do not agree with all they say or the Church professes you are not a Catholic. And you are right everytime I stae w\hat I believe in the same ones are always there to tell and call me unkind things. But remember we are to glory in God when people do this

Well, tweetymom, by her own admission, is not in communion with the Catholic Church. This comes from her statements here and not mine, or those of anyone else for that matter. Associating yourself to a belief and living up to the requirements needed for that association to be valid are often two completely different things. True, tweety can believe what she wants and claim whatever she likes; however, that does not make it so. Is tweety a Chirstian? Well she says that she is and I am obliged to take her word for it. Is she a Catholic Christian? Not according to her own statements, as they cleary show that she is NOT in communion with the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. Does tweety like to play the victim? Yes - in almost every case - and I will be surprised if she doesn’t play that card again very shortly.

You see, when tweety was brought into the Catholic Church she had to profess adherence to the tenants of the faith – which she did so willingly. Clearly, she is now in opposition to that profession which places her outside of the Catholic Church. For tweety to claim to be a Catholic and then to espouse views in opposition to those stated by the CC is - well simply - to live in denial and exist in a state of hypocrisy. Don’t believe me? Then see for yourself…

Originally Posted by AwGusTeen - Re: Catholics neeed to read their Bibles! - Post #892

Correct! I don’t recognize your faith because its NOT Catholic. (as you have stated in other threads - you are catholic, pentacostal, and fundamentalist) So, just to be sure, please respond to the following questions:

1. Do you believe that Jesus founded the Church upon Peter?
2. Do you believe that the Catholic Church is the only Church founded by Christ?
3. Do you believe that Jesus gave authority to the apostles to forgive sins?
4. Do you believe in apostolic succession?
5. Do you believe that the apostles handed down sacred tradition directly from Jesus?
6. Do you believe that Mary is the mother of God?
7. Do you believe that Mary is ever virgin?
8. Do you believe that Mary was without sin (immaculate conception)?
9. Do you believe that the Catholic Church is the pillar and bulwark of the truth and NOT scripture?
10. Do you believe in Purgatory?
11. Do you believe that Catholic priests can forgive sins in persona Christi?
12. Do you believe that Baptism is required for salvation (including the baptism of desire and of blood)?
13. Do you believe in the real presence of Jesus in the Eucharist?
14. Do you believe in the intersession of the saints?
15. Do you believe that the Catholic Church is responsible for the canon of scripture?
16. Do you believe that those outside of the Catholic Church posses only part of the fullness of the faith?
17. Do you believe in papal infallibility in matters of faith and morals?
18. Do you believe in the assumption of Mary?
19. Do you believe in the sacraments?
20. Do you use sacramentals?
21. Do you believe that life begins at conception? (I.e. that abortion is murder)
22. Do you believe in redemptive suffering?
23. Do you believe in the particular and general judgment?

Please be honest so we can move on.

tweetymom:

And you are right I am all those things and proud of the fact that I am saved by Gods grace!
!. No
2.no
3.no
4. no
5. no
6 yes
7???
8.yes
9. no
10 ???
11. no
12 yes
13 yes
14 ???
15 no
16 no
17 no
18.???
19 yes
20 yes
21 yes
22 yes
23 yes
I have answered these questions as honestly as I know how so on to you witch hunt.

 

[josie_L]

I don’t have to prove them in many verses Jesus is the rock. Jesus is my rock not Peter. B ut hey if you believe that then glory to you, you have my blessings to believe what you may.

Why can’t Jesus, the Rock (a fact I don’t dispute) make Simon a “rock” (Jesus changed his name to Peter which means “rock”) as per Matthew 16:18? Why are you making this into an either/or situation as opposed to a both/and situation?

p.s. Did you know that Abraham was also referred to as “rock” by God (Isaiah 51:1)?

 

[tweetymom]

Well, tweetymom, by her own admission, is not in communion with the Catholic Church. This comes from her statements here and not mine, or those of anyone else for that matter. Associating yourself to a belief and living up to the requirements needed for that association to be valid are often two completely different things. True, tweety can believe what she wants and claim whatever she likes; however, that does not make it so. Is tweety a Chirstian? Well she says that she is and I am obliged to take her word for it. Is she a Catholic Christian? Not according to her own statements, as they cleary show that she is NOT in communion with the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. Does tweety like to play the victim? Yes - in almost every case - and I will be surprised if she doesn’t play that card again very shortly.

You see, when tweety was brought into the Catholic Church she had to profess adherence to the tenants of the faith – which she did so willingly. Clearly, she is now in opposition to that profession which places her outside of the Catholic Church. For tweety to claim to be a Catholic and then to espouse views in opposition to those stated by the CC is - well simply - to live in denial and exist in a state of hypocrisy. Don’t believe me? Then see for yourself…

Thank you so much for your thoughtfulness. Sorry if I have offended you. But Jesus is in my corner hope He is in yours. I was raised a Catholic and when I came back I didnot have to profess anything sorry but you are so wrong, but God Bless you

 

[tweetymom]

Why can’t Jesus, the Rock (a fact I don’t dispute) make Simon a “rock” (name changed to Peter which means “rock”) as per Matthew 16:18? Why are you making this into an either/or situation as opposed to a both/and situation?

p.s. Did you know that Abraham was also referred to as “rock” by God (Isaiah 51:1)?

And? Abrahams faith was his rock too. Thank you

 

[AwGusTeen]

I don’t have to prove them in many verses Jesus is the rock. Jesus is my rock not Peter. B ut hey if you believe that then glory to you, you have my blessings to believe what you may.

No tweety - you are making a claim as fact, thus it is incumbent upon you, in the free exchange of ideas, to back this up with some sort of proof. If you wish to be taken seriously that is…

 

[tweetymom]

No tweety - you are making a claim as fact, thus it is incumbent upon you, in the free exchange of ideas, to back this up with some sort of proof. If you wish to be taken seriously that is…

Thank you once again to your judgement.of who I am. I believe that my faith in Jesus is my rock . I certainly will but in the meantime I have to get ready for Mass. God Bless you in all you think is good and righteous before God.

 

[AwGusTeen]

Thank you so much for your thoughtfulness. Sorry if I have offended you. But Jesus is in my corner hope He is in yours. I was raised a Catholic and when I came back I didnot have to profess anything sorry but you are so wrong, but God Bless you

Great! Now, do you care to address what I have provided based upon your own testimony? You know, tweety, it doesn’t really matter to me what you believe as we are all free to express that in this forum. However, if you are going to come here and make statements presented as fact, then you will be expected to provide some sort of evidence to support those claims. So far, all I see from you is victim hood crouched in condescension. Good luck with that.

 

[Janet1983]

Funny that my post (#280) has basically been ignored except for someone telling me I should lay out my sources…
Well in that case it was done for my own edification and for the glory of God I guess.

May God bless you all.

In Him,
Janet

 

[tweetymom]

Great! Now, do you care to address what I have provided based upon your own testimony? You know, tweety, it doesn’t really matter to me what you believe as we are all free to express that in this forum. However, if you are going to come here and make statements presented as fact, then you will be expected to provide some sort of evidence to support those claims. So far, all I see from you is victim hood crouched in false condescension. Good luck with that.

I am professing that I am a Catholic who does not agree with all the Church teaches. Good I am glad it doesn’t matter to you. I will give the scriptures soon as I have time. I do npt care either what you believe or not I said Jesus is my rock not Peter,period. Now you can claim whatever but this is my belief.

 

[tweetymom]

Funny that my post (#280) has basically been ignored except for someone telling me I should lay out my sources…
Well in that case it was done for my own edification and for the glory of God I guess.

May God bless you all.

In Him,
Janet

God Bless you too Janet

 

[josie_L]

And? Abrahams faith was his rock too. Thank you

Abraham was referred to as the rock (although his faith cannot be separated from his person, i.e., they are not mutually exclusive) as per scripture and rabbinical teachings. Here’s me quoting myself on another thread:

As I stated, Abraham was also referred to as “rock” so please look at Isaiah 51: 1, and in addition to scriptural references, rabbinical teachings also confirmed this. Here is a quote from “Upon this Rock” by Stephen Ray (page 41) delineating this fact:

"New Testament scholar William Barclay gives tremendous praise. It is a metaphor which is by no means strange or unusual to Jewish thought. The Rabbis applied the word rock to Abraham. They had a saying: 'When the Holy One saw Abraham who was going to arise, he said, “Lo, I have discovered a rock to found the world upon.” Therefore he called Abraham rock as it said (in scripture): “Look unto the rock whence ye are hewn.”

Also,

The significance of Simon’s name change and his being called “rock” is not lost on Matthew, a Jew writing to a Jewish audience, who is well aware of the importance attached to name changes in eastern culture. For example, Abraham’s (father of nations) name change from Abram (father) means a change in status or mission, just like Simon’s name changed to Peter, the rock, signifies a change in status or mission, i.e., to be the foundation (the source of unity) of Christ’s Church.

The parallels one sees in Abraham and Peter are not coincidental, for as Abraham was the patriarchal head of the first covenant, Peter would the patriarchal head of the new covenant, and as Abraham is the “father of nations” so too would St. Peter be"father of nations" as the Pope or rather father of the Universal/Catholic Church.

Thus, Jesus is creating in Matthew 16:18-21a new covenant upon the “rock”, Peter (whose name was changed as per his new status/mission), just like God created the first covenant upon Abraham (whose name was also changed) and who was referred to in scripture (and rabbinical teachings) as the “rock”.

 

[josie_L]

I am professing that I am a Catholic who does not agree with all the Church teaches. Good I am glad it doesn’t matter to you. I will give the scriptures soon as I have time. I do npt care either what you believe or not I said Jesus is my rock not Peter,period. Now you can claim whatever but this is my belief.

And Jesus is my rock too, however, He built his Church on the “rock” known as St. Peter.

p.s. Do you believe the Catholic Church is the Church of Christ and if not why bother to remain Catholic?

 

[AwGusTeen]

Funny that my post (#280) has basically been ignored except for someone telling me I should lay out my sources…
Well in that case it was done for my own edification and for the glory of God I guess.

May God bless you all.

In Him,
Janet

This is a perfect example of tortured logic not to mention using impossible grammar in order to shore up a position that would otherwise fall completely apart. Jesus would not have insulted Peter by using third person feminine singular which, by-the-way, did not even exist in their spoken language of Aramaic (petros / petra were synonymous in the Koine Greek of the New Testament as well) nor would he ambiguously dance around in such comical grammatical tenses – that only comes from the contrived Protestant interpretation (less than 500 years old) needed to deny the authority of the Catholic Church, which if acknowledged, destroys their (and your) position.

Examine the Koine Greek of the day. The word “petra” means rock, but the word “petros” does as well. It (“petros”) does not mean “pebble” or “small stone” as you have erroneously been told. The Greek word for “pebble” or “small stone” is “psephos”, NOT “petros”. (cf. Rev. 2:17)

Joseph H. Thayer, “Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament” (Peabody: Hendrickson 1996), 507;
D.A. Carson, “Matthew” in Frank E. Gaebelein, ed., “The Expositor’s Bible Commentary” (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1984), vol. 8, 368.

P.s. And I am laying out my sources…

 

[tweetymom]

And Jesus is my rock too, however, He built his Church on the “rock” known as St. Peter.

p.s. Do you believe the Catholic Church is the Church of Christ and if not why bother to remain Catholic?

Note: If you don’t care then don’t argue with us.

I am not the one who argues dear lady only state what I beelieve in, I go to Catholic Church because I choose to and that is where my dear Husband goes.

 

[josie_L]

This is a perfect example of tortured logic not to mention using impossible grammar in order to shore up a position that would otherwise fall completely apart. Jesus would not have insulted Peter by using third person feminine singular which, by-the-way, did not even exist in their spoken language of Aramaic (petros / petra were synonymous in the Koine Greek of the New Testament as well) nor would he ambiguously dance around in such comical grammatical tenses – that only comes from the contrived Protestant interpretation (less than 500 years old) needed to deny the authority of the Catholic Church, which if acknowledged, destroys their (and your) position.

Examine the Koine Greek of the day. The word “petra” means rock, but the word “petros” does as well. It (“petros”) does not mean “pebble” or “small stone” as you have erroneously been told. The Greek word for “pebble” or “small stone” is “psephos”, NOT “petros”. (cf. Rev. 2:17)

Joseph H. Thayer, “Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament” (Peabody: Hendrickson 1996), 507;
D.A. Carson, “Matthew” in Frank E. Gaebelein, ed., “The Expositor’s Bible Commentary” (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1984), vol. 8, 368.

P.s. And I am laying out my sources…

Furthermore, Jesus called Simon “Kephas” which is Aramaic for “rock”.

God bless.

 

[adrift]

I am professing that I am a Catholic who does not agree with all the Church teaches. Good I am glad it doesn’t matter to you. I will give the scriptures soon as I have time. I do npt care either what you believe or not I said Jesus is my rock not Peter,period. Now you can claim whatever but this is my belief.

The problem I am having with your statement is it is not based on the Bible which you say you do. Jesus is our foundation but Jesus said He was building His Church on Peter.

And so I say to you, you are Peter, Kephasand upon this rockKephas I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.

 

[AwGusTeen]

I am professing that I am a Catholic who does not agree with all the Church teaches. Good I am glad it doesn’t matter to you. I will give the scriptures soon as I have time. I do npt care either what you believe or not I said Jesus is my rock not Peter,period. Now you can claim whatever but this is my belief.

You are a Catholic who does not agree with the Catholic Church? Hmmm… That sounds ironically like the PROTESTANT position. Remember Martin Luther? At least he had the courage of his convictions. After all, tweety, if you are in protest against the dogmas held by the Catholic Church, then it logically follows that you are a Prot______.

Put it together there, tweety. You can do it!

Felix sit annus novus!

 

[tweetymom]

You are a Catholic who does not agree with the Catholic Church? Hmmm… That sounds ironically like the PROTESTANT position. Remember Martin Luther? At least he had the courage of his convictions. After all, tweety, if you are in protest against the dogmas held by the Catholic Church, then it logically follows that you are a Prot______.

Put it together there, tweety. You can do it!

Felix sit annus novus!

Stated correctly And whatever it sounds like to you God Bless you in your belief