I
ishii
Guest
You’re right on all the above things - he has solid character, is good on most issues.
But he has no chance of winning. Don’t throw away your vote.
Ishii
- Status
But he has no chance of winning. Don’t throw away your vote.
Ishii
meltzerboy
New member
So why do you think members of “your” Church (I honestly thought it was EVERY Catholic’s Church) vote for Democratic candidates who are pro-abortion, in favor of gay marriage, and anti-Israel? Is it due to economic issues, health care, foreign policy, or do they believe, mistakenly, that the Democratic candidates they are voting for (as well as the Democratic party) are not what you say they are? Is another possibility that the Republican candidates are so bad? Or have these people been hypnotized, indoctrinated, or perhaps, as you say, they are truly in a coma? Also, maybe some of these Catholics are pro-choice, in favor of gay marriage, or pro-Palestinian?The left is informally, at least… aligned with anti Israel forces including Islamists. Left wing Jews vote for leaders who are at the least…anti Israel…the Democrat Party is the bastion of abortion and other issues formally condemned by my Church. Despite this…members of my Church vote for them. You say this is a lie?..I am sorry to tell you that what I said is not a lie and I am not the only person to make the case. How Catholics can vote for politicians who wear their pro abortion…gay marriage…anti Israel stances out for everyone to see is beyond me. It is not a matter of voting habits and innocently voting for the wrong candidate. You would have to be in a coma not to know that you are voting against the core beliefs of the Catholic Church by voting for many Democrats individually and generally too since all these issues are part of the official platform of the Democrat Party.
I don’t lie…you may not agree but I am not a liar and don’t repeat this please…back at ya
P
pnewton
Guest
I can’t stand this argument. It is the battle cry of the entrenched politician. In any case, I refuse to believe your opinion. In case you have not noticed, he has lead many polls. The same thing you say was said of many Tea Party candidates, yet many of them won. Obama was also said to be unelectable. We know how that turned out. When Paul won his Congressional seat, he was the first Republican to win it in decades against a well-liked Democratic incumbant. He has been written off before.
FYI -no vote is wasted, or every vote is wasted, depending on how you look at it.
meltzerboy
New member
I think the voting patterns are divided to a significant degree between more religious people and less religious people regardless of religion. Thus practicing Catholics, fundamentalist Christians (Evangelicals), and Torah (Orthodox) Jews are more likely to vote for Conservative Republicans, whereas more liberal Catholics, more mainstream and liberal Protestants, and Jews who are either secular (agnostic or atheist) or Reform are more likely to vote for Progressive (Liberal) Democrats. Of course, as in most generalizations, there are exceptions. For example, religious and ethnic pride may reverse one’s usual vote. If a Jew were running for President, I can see where some, perhaps many, Orthodox Jews and secular Jews might cross party lines. I’m sure that was the case among many Catholics when Kennedy ran for President (and I know the Democratic Party was different back then). I can also see some practicing Catholics and fundamentalist Evangelicals not voting for a Republican candidate (and perhaps not voting at all) if that candidate is too liberal on the social issues. Again, these are generalizations; I recall even Pat Robertson’s supporting former Republican NYC Mayor Rudy Giuliani’s candidacy despite his being pro-choice and in favor of gay marriage. And there are still plenty of traditional Catholics and Torah Jews who would not vote Republican no matter what, based on cultural tradition and economic issues, and, in the case of some Orthodox Jews, the belief that the Republican Party is too allied with the Christian (Evangelical) Right even though the latter are great supporters of Israel.The left is informally, at least… aligned with anti Israel forces including Islamists. Left wing Jews vote for leaders who are at the least…anti Israel…the Democrat Party is the bastion of abortion and other issues formally condemned by my Church. Despite this…members of my Church vote for them. You say this is a lie?..I am sorry to tell you that what I said is not a lie and I am not the only person to make the case. How Catholics can vote for politicians who wear their pro abortion…gay marriage…anti Israel stances out for everyone to see is beyond me. It is not a matter of voting habits and innocently voting for the wrong candidate. You would have to be in a coma not to know that you are voting against the core beliefs of the Catholic Church by voting for many Democrats individually and generally too since all these issues are part of the official platform of the Democrat Party.
I don’t lie…you may not agree but I am not a liar and don’t repeat this please…
P
pnewton
Guest
I think you are right. It reminds me of a book by Dr. Peter Kreeft, Ecumenical Jihad, in which he points out that we often find we have more in common with morally upright people of other faiths than we do dissident Catholics, and we may find that we have stronger ally in them in fighting evil in this world.
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ishii
Guest
Very few on the left are in that category, wouldn’t you say?And, for some of us on the left, our churches have names such as St. Anne’s, Immaculate Conception, and St. Augustine’s.
Ishii
D
Demforlife
Guest
I understand people being pro-life and against abortion. I am strongly pro-life. I do not understand why anyone would vote Republican because of the one issue. The Republicans have never tried to ban abortion. They will not ban abortion because they need these single issue voters to keep voting for them. It is ridiculous to vote Republican over abortion. They will never end it.
Also, I’ve seen people take up rightist talking points that clearly contradict Church teaching. How does opposition to abortion automatically make you a laissez-faire capitalist?
Also, I’ve seen people take up rightist talking points that clearly contradict Church teaching. How does opposition to abortion automatically make you a laissez-faire capitalist?
R
Rich_Olszewski
Guest
Not sure what you’re driving at. We Catholics on the left attend Mass just like any rightwinger does.
A
Apostle_Anthony
Guest
I can’t say I would need to know more about them and I am afraid I do not have the time to learn/read.
J
jfmarm81
Guest
I think a Republican will ban abortion. But it will come eventually. He or she would have to have enough support in Congress and in the courts to push the ban through and keep it through.
However, while I am completely pro-life, i do not vote on the single issue. It weighs heavily on my mind, but so do my 3 children, whom I have to keep fed, clothed, and with a roof over my head. I will be voting Republican, which is how I’ve voted the last 3 presidential elections I have been old enough to vote in. No, I’m not a crazy right-winger, I just haven’t liked any of the Democratic candidates…the only Democrat in my lifetime I would have voted for (had I been allowed to vote then) was Clinton. But that’s beside the point.
Obama is a bad choice for many reasons. It is not just that he is pro-abortion. I do not agree with his healthcare plan, he can’t stop spending, he gives money to other countries that we don’t have (see Egypt and their 1 billion dollar gift from us, which was given because they need to fix their economy…
), he denounced Bush’s wars then got into a quasi-war with Libya, and he has almost alienated the American Jewish population. I do not see him winning Florida in 2012 based on that alone.I do not believe that Obama is inherently a bad man. I think he is very misguided and had very little experience. I do give him enormous credit for the killing of bin Laden, though there are issues with that too, which I will not get into. Other than that though, I don’t think he has been a good president- not the worst (James Buchanan and Andrew Johnson come to mind) but not very good.
Anyway, that’s just my take on things. I love reading political debates because we’ve all got opinions, and the fact that we can voice them is what makes this country great.
P
pismopal
Guest
What is your guess…he dislikes Israel?
P
pismopal
Guest
My original assertion was that for liberals…and the left…liberalism trumps their religious affiliation. They will say they are Catholic(for example) but vote for politicians who openly admit supporting abortion…or gay marriage. I stand by that and it is so blatantly obvious that I am surprised that someone would dispute it.
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pismopal
Guest
They have a right to define and govern themselves but if you are suggesting that they are defending themselves against Israel… you and I are getting information from different sources or we process the same information in a different way. Which way did YOU hear that the rockets are heading? Maybe I need a new compass?
S
St_Francis
Guest
- the “palestinians” as a “people” were never heard of til years after Israeli kndependence
- the right of self-determination of peoples is a silly idea promoted by a calvinistic woodrow wilson
- when the people knkwn as the palestinians govern themselves, they choose to be led by groups which have as their main goal the destruction of a nation
- if they stopped shooting rockets into israel, there would be no need for them to “defend” themselves.
S
SwordandShield
Guest
It pains me to see so many of my fellow brothers and sisters stray from our Faith and Church Doctrine. The sanctity of life should be the most important issue when we decide on a candidate to vote for and support. You cannot call yourself a devout Roman Catholic Christian, a follower of Christ, if you support abortion or the right to choose such an intrinsic evil or embryonic stem cell research. You cannot call yourself a devout Roman Catholic Christian, a follower of Christ, if you ignore this issue in lieu of other issues. Protecting life comes before all else.
Let me stop those who would argue that other social and economic issues are just as important. You may have a family to worry about, you may have to worry about how you will feed and clothe them. You may worry about those that are poor and without. Let me ask one question; Has your trust in God fallen so far as to truly believe that He would not provide for you should you choose to place your faith in Him?
I read through these replies and realize that we place too much weight in this world and come to see God not as the loving father He is, but as the Watchmaker. That He created the world and set things in motion and allows the cogs to turn on their own. The Holy Spirit is not a passive entity, He is active in our lives and we must trust that if we follow Him, He will provide for us what is necessary to prevail. I come from a very loving family, and there isn’t a moment that I do not see that they wish they could have done more for me. But, we must remember that as Roman Catholics, though we live IN this world, we are not OF this world. Our gaze should always be turned to God and our hearts always open to His Will, no matter how difficult the decision may seem.
Please don’t be confused as to believe this is the only issue I look at, I merely point out that unless a candidate is 100% in support of the Sanctity of Human Life, he/she will not receive my vote.
How the candidate will affect the Family Unit is second on my list. Without a strong family unit at the base of our society, acting as our foundation, we will crumble. Those who vote liberal, vote against the family unity. Liberals have used many means to disrupt our most core building block through excessive feminism, sexual revolution, the corruption of the sanctity of marriage by way of same-sex marriage, and no-fault Divorce. The divorce rate in America is about 50%, give or take a few points depending on where you get your statistics. With the developing individualistic culture that seems to be growing more dominant in our culture thanks to the aforementioned movements, can the family unit hope to survive if we continue to vote into office those that oppose it?
Next, I look at what economic system the candidate supports. Socialism is condemned by the Catholic Church. Popes denounce it as an intrinsic evil, does this mean I fully support Capitalism? This is a trick question, and would require many thousands of words in an essay, were it not for the wisdom of Pope John Paul II with these words:
We need to stop with our rationalizations that anything can be more important than the Right to Life. And for those that believe nothing would change anyway, let me remind you of Edmund Burke’s popular quote:
Faith as my armor, Hope as my sword, God: allow for me the means to do Your Will.
Let me stop those who would argue that other social and economic issues are just as important. You may have a family to worry about, you may have to worry about how you will feed and clothe them. You may worry about those that are poor and without. Let me ask one question; Has your trust in God fallen so far as to truly believe that He would not provide for you should you choose to place your faith in Him?
I read through these replies and realize that we place too much weight in this world and come to see God not as the loving father He is, but as the Watchmaker. That He created the world and set things in motion and allows the cogs to turn on their own. The Holy Spirit is not a passive entity, He is active in our lives and we must trust that if we follow Him, He will provide for us what is necessary to prevail. I come from a very loving family, and there isn’t a moment that I do not see that they wish they could have done more for me. But, we must remember that as Roman Catholics, though we live IN this world, we are not OF this world. Our gaze should always be turned to God and our hearts always open to His Will, no matter how difficult the decision may seem.
Please don’t be confused as to believe this is the only issue I look at, I merely point out that unless a candidate is 100% in support of the Sanctity of Human Life, he/she will not receive my vote.
How the candidate will affect the Family Unit is second on my list. Without a strong family unit at the base of our society, acting as our foundation, we will crumble. Those who vote liberal, vote against the family unity. Liberals have used many means to disrupt our most core building block through excessive feminism, sexual revolution, the corruption of the sanctity of marriage by way of same-sex marriage, and no-fault Divorce. The divorce rate in America is about 50%, give or take a few points depending on where you get your statistics. With the developing individualistic culture that seems to be growing more dominant in our culture thanks to the aforementioned movements, can the family unit hope to survive if we continue to vote into office those that oppose it?
Next, I look at what economic system the candidate supports. Socialism is condemned by the Catholic Church. Popes denounce it as an intrinsic evil, does this mean I fully support Capitalism? This is a trick question, and would require many thousands of words in an essay, were it not for the wisdom of Pope John Paul II with these words:
I do not understand why my brothers and sisters believe that the government should force people to do good. If the Government forces you to do so, how then is the act good and of God, if it is not of free will? Placing the responsibility with Government absolves us of our responsibility to help those in need. That is in direct contrast to the greatest gift God has given us, Free Will. It is up to us to choose to help those in need, much in the same way it is up to us to choose to love God and follow in His ways. By allowing the Government to play Robin Hood, we throw away that gift of Free Will. Do I believe in a safety net? With every fiber of my being, but to the extent that liberals push welfare? Absolutely not.
We need to stop with our rationalizations that anything can be more important than the Right to Life. And for those that believe nothing would change anyway, let me remind you of Edmund Burke’s popular quote:
And I will repeat myself here: Has your trust in God fallen so far? We should be concerned with our souls and our spirituality in following God’s Will. We must trust that His will shall be done, and to do our part, regardless if we believe our one vote will change anything or not, it is not for you to decide. Perhaps instead of being so negative as to the failing of trusting the Institutions of Man, you could vote Pro-Life, and attempt to reach out to others who may feel the same way? God works in mysterious ways, and there is not one of us who can presume to know any part of His plan on our own, as I said, we must trust that His Will be done and place our Faith in Him.
Faith as my armor, Hope as my sword, God: allow for me the means to do Your Will.
S
Scott_Lafrance
Guest
What party endorses laissez-faire capitalism (other than the Libertarian Party)? Is continuation of abortion on demand, regardless of the ability to pay, part of the Republican Party platform? All of the action that has come about to curtail abortion in this country has come from the Republicans.
Ending Mexico City Policy (which every Democrat reinstates)
Banning partial birth abortion
Defunding Planned Parenthood
Enacting Parental Consent laws
Enacting laws prohibiting minors from crossing state lines to get abortions
Just to name a few. Every time the Republicans chip around the edges, the Democrats, even the so-called “pro-life” ones mount an aggressive and unified assault against it. ANd it is an assault. We hear ALL of the ridiculous nonsense that drowns out any “fear mongering” the Republicans do to “keep their voters in line”. WE get told that the Republicans hate women, are trying to take away health care, women and children will die under Republican plans.
Give me one issue that is more important than the right to life and I’ll start looking at the Democrat Party. Until then, they have earned their moniker “The Party of Death”.
D
didymus
Guest
Obama – not even with a gun to my head.
Bachman, Gingrich, Palin – *only *with a gun to my head.
Pawlenty & Cain – who?
Ron Paul – I’d like to vote for him but he doesn’t have a prayer.
Of the possibles I’d probably go for Santorum or Romney.
Bachman, Gingrich, Palin – *only *with a gun to my head.
Pawlenty & Cain – who?
Ron Paul – I’d like to vote for him but he doesn’t have a prayer.
Of the possibles I’d probably go for Santorum or Romney.
S
Scott_Lafrance
Guest
Santorum couldn’t even get reelected to the Senate, and you say Ron Paul doesn’t have a shot? Ron Paul has a significant youth following, statistically comparable to Obama’s.
lewrockwell.com/gregory/gregory151.html
A
_Abyssinia
Guest
**You are either pro life and believe abortion is murder and nothing justifies voting for someone who supports it, or you do not believe abortion is murder in which case you are not pro life.
**
Catholic Church says on voting:
In this context, it must be noted also that a well-formed Christian conscience does not permit one to vote for a political program or an individual law which contradicts the fundamental contents of faith and morals. – (CDF DOCTRINAL NOTE
on some questions regarding The Participation of Catholics in Political Life, 4)
The Church teaches that, regarding a law permitting abortions, it is “never licit to obey it, or to take part in a propaganda campaign in favor of such a law, or to vote for it” – (John Paul II, Evangelium Vitae, 73).
“When legislation in favor of the recognition of homosexual unions is proposed for the first time in a legislative assembly, the Catholic lawmaker has a moral duty to express his opposition clearly and publicly and to vote against it. To vote in favor of a law so harmful to the common good is gravely immoral” – (CDF Considerations regarding Proposals to Give Legal Recognition to Unions between Homosexual Persons, 10).
The Democratic Party says…
The Democratic Party strongly and unequivocally supports Roe v. Wade and a woman’s right to choose a safe and legal abortion, regardless of ability to pay, and we oppose any and all efforts to weaken or undermine that right. – (Democratic Party Platform 2008)
We support full inclusion of gay and lesbian families in the life of our nation and seek equal responsibilities, benefits, and protections for these families. In our country, marriage has been defined at the state level for 200 years, and we believe it should continue to be defined there. We repudiate President Bush’s divisive effort to politicize the Constitution by pursuing a “Federal Marriage Amendment.” Our goal is to bring Americans together, not drive them apart. – (Democratic Party Platform 2004)
A
antonivs
Guest
_Abyssinia there are people who are pro life and believe abortion is murder who don’t agree that “nothing justifies voting for someone who supports it.” A 2007 Voting Guide by the Catholic Bishops offered flexibility on the issue of Abortion:
source: nytimes.com/2007/11/15/us/15bishops.html
- Status