Who Will You Vote For in 2012?

[_Abyssinia]

_Abyssinia there are people who are pro life and believe abortion is murder who don’t agree that “nothing justifies voting for someone who supports it.” A 2007 Voting Guide by the Catholic Bishops offered flexibility on the issue of Abortion:

source: nytimes.com/2007/11/15/us/15bishops.html

My understanding of that text is that you either believe direct abortion is murder, and it can not be justified and no on who votes for it can be supported, unless all the other candidates support something worse than the murder of children. For example, suppose you had someone who was not enthusiastically pro-abortion, and his only viable opponent promised to reduce the Middle East to a sea of glass with nuclear weapons. That might justify voting for the pro-abortion candidate as the lesser evil.

Regardless, what can anyone threaten to do in our country today, that would outweigh the murder of millions of babies a year?

askacatholic.com/_WebPostings/Answers/2011_04APR/2011AprCan_A_CatholicBeADemocrat.cfm

 

[mary_bobo]

While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.

Add to that fetal stem cell research, gay marriage and assisted suicide. Funny how liberal always bring up war and the death penalty in spite of what you have cited which is true.

Pope Benedict XVI

The inviolability of the person which is a reflection of the absolute inviolability of God fínds its primary and fundamental expression in the inviolability of human life. Above all, the common outcry, which is justly made on behalf of human rights – for example, the right to health, to home, to work, to family, to culture – is false and illusory if the right to life, the most basic and fundamental right and the condition for all other personal rights, is not defended with maximum determination…. The human being is entitled to such rights, in every phase of development, from conception until natural death; and in every condition, whether healthy or sick, whole or handicapped, rich or poor (# 38).

Pope John Paul II

 

[estesbob]

That is not my reading of the document. I hope all other Catholics will read it for themselves and carefully and prayfully weigh all the issues before voting.

I have posted quotes from two Popes , an Archbishop and Vatican Documents. you respond with you and the NYT interpret things differently.

 

[Havard]

While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.

Pope Benedict XVI

The inviolability of the person which is a reflection of the absolute inviolability of God fínds its primary and fundamental expression in the inviolability of human life. Above all, the common outcry, which is justly made on behalf of human rights – for example, the right to health, to home, to work, to family, to culture – is false and illusory if the right to life, the most basic and fundamental right and the condition for all other personal rights, is not defended with maximum determination…. The human being is entitled to such rights, in every phase of development, from conception until natural death; and in every condition, whether healthy or sick, whole or handicapped, rich or poor (# 38).

Pope John Paul II

Thank you for posting these. We would do well to heed them.

 

[estesbob]

That is not my reading of the document. I hope all other Catholics will read it for themselves and carefully and prayfully weigh all the issues before voting.

“But [Catholics who support ‘pro-choice’ candidates] also need a compelling proportionate reason to justify it. What is a ‘proportionate’ reason when it comes to the abortion issue? It’s the kind of reason we will be able to explain, with a clean heart, to the victims of abortion when we meet them face to face in the next life–which we most certainly will. If we’re confident that these victims will accept our motives as something more than an alibi, then we can proceed.”

Archbishop Charles Chaput

*too many Americans have ‘‘no recognition of the fact that children continue to be killed [by abortion], and we live therefore, in a country drenched in blood. **This can’t be something you start playing off pragmatically against other issues.’’ ***

Cardinal Francis George

 

[estesbob]

Thank you for posting these. We would do well to heed them.

I am always somewhat amazed that a Catholic(or anyone else) would need the Church to point out to them that we can not support pro-abortion canidates.

 

[irishpatrick]

Every person has a God given free will and can use that gift according to their own conscience–that is a clear an obvious fact.

However–let us cut through the maze of arguments by answering two questions through a known horrific analogy:

***Could a Catholic in say 1943 cast a licit vote for a candidate in the USA who publicly proclaimed that they intended to work to help Germany’s Hitler keep the Holocaust going? ***

Would, in 1943, the issue of stopping that person from working to continue the Holocaust be enough to qualify for being a single issue vote?

 

[estesbob]

As Catholics we are not single-issue voters. A candidate’s position on a
single issue is not sufficient to guarantee a voter’s support. Yet a candidate’s
position on a single issue that involves an intrinsic evil, such as support for legal
abortion or the promotion of racism, may legitimately lead a voter to disqualify a
candidate from receiving support.1

USCCB Faithful Citizenship

 

[irishpatrick]

I am always somewhat amazed that a Catholic(or anyone else) would need the Church to point out to them that we can not support pro-abortion canidates.

What further amazes me is that this even is an argument of any kind. How can any so-called rational person compare social justice issues to abortion? We all want people to be treated fairly and justly, and I am certain 90%+ of all Catholics want that–yet how do we treat people fairly and justly by killing them through abortion?

So many people allow themselves to get all confused and twisted when things like war and the death penalty come into the talk, yet they cannot seem to grasp that the Church allows the determination of just war to fall into the hands of the civil authorities, and the Church does in fact allow for the death penalty–and neither of those are considered intrinsic evils.

Sometimes I think it is as ridiculously simple as people thinking Republicans are evil, so they won’t vote for people/party they think are basically evil. Yet, amazingly, it was the GOP who set the American slaves free, and it is the GOP that is working to save the lives of the unborn. In both cases it was the Democrats who were fighting to keep slavery legal and today they are fighting to continue legally killing the unborn–hardening of hearts indeed, for in other respects there is no doubt those people are wonderful individuals.

I just do not get it…sort of reminds me of how God hardened the heart and mind of Pharaoh.

 

[estesbob]

What further amazes me is that this even is an argument of any kind. How can any so-called rational person compare social justice issues to abortion? We all want people to be treated fairly and justly, and I certain 90%+ of all Catholics want that–yet how do we treat people fairly and justly by killing them through abortion?

So many people allow themselves to get all confused and twisted when things like war and the death penalty come into the talk, yet they cannot seem to grasp that the Church allows the determination of just war to fall into the hands of the civil authorities, and the Church does in fact allow for the death penalty–and neither of those are considered intrinsic evils.

I just do not get it…sort of reminds me of how God hardened the heart and mind of Pharaoh.

Catholics need to sincerely answer this question:

Does my Faith form my politics OR does my politics form my Faith?

 

[irishpatrick]

Catholics need to sincerely answer this question:

Does my Faith form my politics OR does my politics form my Faith?

Yes, I agree. The fact that so many Catholics support abortion with their vote is just not something I can understand.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Every person has a God given free will and can use that gift according to their own conscience–that is a clear an obvious fact.

However–let us cut through the maze of arguments by answering two questions through a known horrific analogy:

***Could a Catholic in say 1943 cast a licit vote for a candidate in the USA who publicly proclaimed that they intended to work to help Germany’s Hitler keep the Holocaust going? ***

Would, in 1943, the issue of stopping that person from working to continue the Holocaust be enough to qualify for being a single issue vote?

Using modern proportional reasons, of course! Hitler is as much a grave threat to humanity as substandard housing and anthropogenic global warming.

 

[jediliz]

irishpatrick, I totally agree with everything in your 9 AM post (well, 9 AM according to my clock).

All life issues are important (as the economy and jobs) and there’s no **perfect **candidate. A Faithful Catholic CAN NOT and SHOULD NEVER vote for a candidate that supports the legal and deliberate murder of the innocent…including pre born children, the disabled and the elderly.

If Candidate A was pro life, pro traditional marriage, against Human EMBRYONIC stem cell research, but was remarried, he/she would be the better candidate against

Candidate B that’s pro gay marriage, pro abortion (including forcing Catholic hospitals to perform abortions!), pro sex ed for 5 year olds, and giving MORE tax money to population control programs overseas. But, (s)he’s against war!

Could you in good conscience vote for Candidate B because he/she is against war and that’s the only positive thing?

 

[irishpatrick]

Using modern proportional reasons, of course! Hitler is as much a grave threat to humanity as substandard housing and anthropogenic global warming.

So, a Catholic could cast a licit vote for a candidate who intended to keep murdering the Jews through the Holocaust? (or did I read you wrong)

 

[estesbob]

Sometimes I think it is as ridiculously simple as people thinking Republicans are evil, so they won’t vote for people/party they think are basically evil. Yet, amazingly, it was the GOP who set the American slaves free, and it is the GOP that is working to save the lives of the unborn. In both cases it was the Democrats who were fighting to keep slavery legal and today they are fighting to continue legally killing the unborn–hardening of hearts indeed, for in other respects there is no doubt those people are wonderful individuals.

.

Abortion will remain legal in this country until Catholic Democrats come to love the unborn more than they hate the GOP.

 

[irishpatrick]

irishpatrick, I totally agree with everything in your 9 AM post (well, 9 AM according to my clock).

All life issues are important (as the economy and jobs) and there’s no **perfect **candidate. A Faithful Catholic CAN NOT and SHOULD NEVER vote for a candidate that supports the legal and deliberate murder of the innocent…including pre born children, the disabled and the elderly.

If Candidate A was pro life, pro traditional marriage, against Human EMBRYONIC stem cell research, but was remarried, he/she would be the better candidate against

Candidate B that’s pro gay marriage, pro abortion (including forcing Catholic hospitals to perform abortions!), pro sex ed for 5 year olds, and giving MORE tax money to population control programs overseas. But, (s)he’s against war!

Could you in good conscience vote for Candidate B because he/she is against war and that’s the only positive thing?

Well said.

It shocks many so many cannot see this situation clearly. It also amazes me that so many people cry out for God to bless our nation and the world while concurrenly casting a vote in support of killing God’s precious innocent unborn. No unity of life at all in that.

 

[irishpatrick]

Abortion will remain legal in this country until Catholic Democrats come to love the unborn more than they hate the GOP.

Very well said…I might copy that. – sadly…

Irrational hate always leads to bad results…

 

[estesbob]

Very well said…I might copy that. – sadly…

Irrational hate always leads to bad results…

I was paraphrasing Golda Meir who said :

Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us

 

[irishpatrick]

I was paraphrasing Golda Meir who said :

Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us

Well, it gets to the point quickly and it is (imo) 100% true. When Catholics learn to love the unborn more than they hate the GOP…that sums it up very well.

Perhaps we should use that single phrase as a foundatioin for praying for Catholic Deocrats…asking the Lord to help them love the unborn more than they hate the GOP.

Perhaps a week of Masses and Communion offered to the Holy Souls in Purgatory asking those Holy Souls to pray for Catholic Democrats to find that love for the unborn…perhaps asking for help from the Holy Souls (a group who certainly understand suffering and loss) might help make the difference…and if we can spread this around…

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

So, a Catholic could cast a licit vote for a candidate who intended to keep murdering the Jews through the Holocaust? (or did I read you wrong)

I was being a smartypants. But you saw right through me didn’t you.