Who Will You Vote For in 2012?

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estesbob said:
It is fine for a Catholic to beleive the Iraq War was unjust and vote accordingly. The problem arises when they declare the war was unjust and then use their judgement of such as a rationalization to support a pro-abortion canidate.
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True, but if you believe the Iraq War was an unjust war - it is totally valid to use that judgement to rule out candidates who publicly support it.
 
bellasbane said:
True, but if you believe the Iraq War was an unjust war - it is totally valid to use that judgement to rule out candidates who publicly support it.
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Absolutely BUT when following the teachings of the Church one had to rule out supporting a pro-abortion canidate but wasa perfectly free to support a canidate who supported the Iraq war
 
bellasbane said:
True, but if you believe the Iraq War was an unjust war - it is totally valid to use that judgement to rule out candidates who publicly support it.
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Yes, but it is not proportional reasoning to give equal weight to a subjective matter such as the justness of a war (which ultimately resides in the authority of the state) and abortion, or the other issues that the Church has ruled conclusively on.
 
bellasbane said:
That is a fairly narrow-minded statement. It implies that the only “worth” a person has is to be a “worker” in the macro economy. What about “home economics” - which is what my field used to be called “once upon a time”. The economic worth of vibrant grandparents who are still young enough and healthy enough to support their working children and grandchildren is incredibly valuable.
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If they are supporting and caring for children or grandchildren, then they are not really retired.

I am mainly targeting people who are still fairly young and able to work, but choose to retire and essentially do nothing (perhaps travel and play golf, which is meaningless time fillers).

I am just of the view that God wants us to contribute and I also believe that retirement is a modern invention. Mother Theresa and John Paul the Great did not retire, and they were both quite weak leading up to their death.

Go here for an interesting piece (Retirement Myth):

grandich.com/2011/04/retirement-myth/
 
St_Francis said:
I cannot agree that what Gift from God wrote, “Just war is when all diplomacy has officially failed and is needed to protect the people for the greater good,” is automatically true. It does not line up with Just War theory, that the good to be gained mist oitweigh the evil to be reasonably expected, for one thing.
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I think it is important for us to note that in the just war theory the Church also (in general) releases it into the hands of the governing authorities. I think the Church does that because it is only top authorities who truly hold all security information…normal citizens do not.

As for Iraq, I feel the same thing applies. We really do not and did not hold all the security data as did Bush, and yet even at that Bush made it very clear that he was going after wmd’s. Now, it is now obvious that Bush’s security briefings were simply wrong about wmd’s, or the weapons were moved prior to the invasion (have no idea which one applies). Yet, the bottom line is we do not know enough to declare the Iraq war as being unjust.
 
irishpatrick said:
I think it is important for us to note that in the just war theory the Church also (in general) releases it into the hands of the governing authorities. I think the Church does that because it is only top authorities who truly hold all security information…normal citizens do not.

As for Iraq, I feel the same thing applies. We really do not and did not hold all the security data as did Bush, and yet even at that Bush made it very clear that he was going after wmd’s. Now, it is now obvious that Bush’s security briefings were simply wrong about wmd’s, or the weapons were moved prior to the invasion (have no idea which one applies). Yet, the bottom line is we do not know enough to declare the Iraq war as being unjust.
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The long and short of it is, we, as private citizens, don’t. It is up to the states to determine the justness of war, not the individual citizen. However, that said, when it becomes obvious that the state is engaging in undebatable evil acts, then it becomes each citizens duty to set the government right. Here in the states, that is done through the ballot box. Elsewhere may require more aggressive means.
 
Scott_Lafrance said:
The long and short of it is, we, as private citizens, don’t. It is up to the states to determine the justness of war, not the individual citizen. However, that said, when it becomes obvious that the state is engaging in undebatable evil acts, then it becomes each citizens duty to set the government right. Here in the states, that is done through the ballot box. Elsewhere may require more aggressive means.
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I agree–you said it better than I did. 🙂
 
Scott_Lafrance said:
The long and short of it is, we, as private citizens, don’t. It is up to the states to determine the justness of war, not the individual citizen. However, that said, when it becomes obvious that the state is engaging in undebatable evil acts, then it becomes each citizens duty to set the government right. Here in the states, that is done through the ballot box. Elsewhere may require more aggressive means.
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What is the criteria for “becomes obvious”? Is that a personal or collective judgement?
 
estesbob said:
It is fine for a Catholic to beleive the Iraq War was unjust and vote accordingly. The problem arises when they declare the war was unjust and then use their judgement of such as a rationalization to support a pro-abortion canidate.
Click to expand...
irishpatrick said:
I think it is important for us to note that in the just war theory the Church also (in general) releases it into the hands of the governing authorities. I think the Church does that because it is only top authorities who truly hold all security information…normal citizens do not.
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I just meant that the definition in general was bad, not as applied to any particular action.
As for Iraq, I feel the same thing applies. We really do not and did not hold all the security data as did Bush, and yet even at that Bush made it very clear that he was going after wmd’s. Now, it is now obvious that Bush’s security briefings were simply wrong about wmd’s, or the weapons were moved prior to the invasion (have no idea which one applies). Yet, the bottom line is we do not know enough to declare the Iraq war as being unjust.
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I was not against the action taken in Iraq, but understood the logic of those who were.
 
St_Francis said:
I just meant that the definition in general was bad, not as applied to any particular action.

I was not against the action taken in Iraq, but understood the logic of those who were.
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I agree with you, yet many people did turn-around and use so-called just war theories to justify their vote for pro-abortion candidates. Even if the Iraq War was formally declared unjust, that would still not justify voting for a pro-abort candidate.
 
irishpatrick said:
If they are supporting and caring for children or grandchildren, then they are not really retired.

I am mainly targeting people who are still fairly young and able to work, but choose to retire and essentially do nothing (perhaps travel and play golf, which is meaningless time fillers).

I am just of the view that God wants us to contribute and I also believe that retirement is a modern invention. Mother Theresa and John Paul the Great did not retire, and they were both quite weak leading up to their death.

Go here for an interesting piece (Retirement Myth):

grandich.com/2011/04/retirement-myth/
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That was an interesting article. Seems like SS was instituted to keep some people out of the workforce so as to “reduce” unemployment.

It does seem like people will have to give up on retirement, but this has already been seen. I used to go to a Walmart near an area filled with retirees. There were a lot of people over 65 working there (loved the ex-construction guys working in the fabrics dept!), but the ladies in their 80s working at the door was sad; they looked so fragile to be working like that.

Anyway, maybe we could shift SS to be more for much older people rather than 65-year-olds? Or people who are in real need? I remeber talking many years ago with a retired person who was very against means-testing because it would be unfair to those who had been responsible in saving. But this person was quite rich, and the loss of SS would mean little to her, but if the elderly have so much of the wealth (80%?), then it would be a huge help to the nation if those who could afford it would relinquish their SS funds.
 
bellasbane said:
What is the criteria for “becomes obvious”? Is that a personal or collective judgement?
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It should be obvious to all that killing 1.2 million chidren a year is evil. I have always wondered why anyone needed the Church to tell them you can not vote for those who support this.
 
St_Francis said:
That was an interesting article. Seems like SS was instituted to keep some people out of the workforce so as to “reduce” unemployment.

It does seem like people will have to give up on retirement, but this has already been seen. I used to go to a Walmart near an area filled with retirees. There were a lot of people over 65 working there (loved the ex-construction guys working in the fabrics dept!), but the ladies in their 80s working at the door was sad; they looked so fragile to be working like that.

Anyway, maybe we could shift SS to be more for much older people rather than 65-year-olds? Or people who are in real need? I remeber talking many years ago with a retired person who was very against means-testing because it would be unfair to those who had been responsible in saving. But this person was quite rich, and the loss of SS would mean little to her, but if the elderly have so much of the wealth (80%?), then it would be a huge help to the nation if those who could afford it would relinquish their SS funds.
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I agree…SS should be for 70-75 year-olds and that should shift as life expectancy increases.

I have always liked the idea of letting people choose for themselves.
 
bellasbane said:
What is the criteria for “becomes obvious”? Is that a personal or collective judgement?
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That becomes a matter of prudential judgement. In America, we determine our government. If we believe that what our government is doing is immoral (after close scrutiny with the Catechism, the Canons and other Church documents, plus the guidance of the Bishops and the ordinary Magisterium), then we as individual voters, can express our outrage. If enough of us collectively disagree with the direction and policy of our government, we can change it. That’s what the Tea Party was all about. We, as Catholics, have even more influence on politics. We comprise 25% of the vote, and many of us in the Church take our role and duty seriously. The only groups that have us outdone are the Evangelicals and the Mormons.
 
estesbob said:
It should be obvious to all that killing 1.2 million chidren a year is evil. I have always wondered why anyone needed the Church to tell them you can not vote for those who support this.
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They create a justification in their mind that it really is not killing.
 
Scott_Lafrance said:
That becomes a matter of prudential judgement. In America, we determine our government. If we believe that what our government is doing is immoral (after close scrutiny with the Catechism, the Canons and other Church documents, plus the guidance of the Bishops and the ordinary Magisterium, then we as individual voters, can express our outrage. If enough of us collectively disagree with the direction and policy of our government, we can change it. That’s what the Tea Party was all about. We, as Catholics, have even more influence on politics. We comprise 25% of the vote, and many of us in the Church take our role and duty seriously. The only groups that have us outdone are the Evangelicals and the Mormons.
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I get it now. Thanks for replying. 🙂
 
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