Who Will You Vote For in 2012?

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TMC said:
I
The Pope has never said that Catholics must be, or even should be, single issue voters. In fact, the Church has said that Catholics are not to be single issue voters, they are to look at the whole range of issues. To repeatedly say that the Pope has said something he has not, or that the Church teaches something it does not, is simply wrong.
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Actually the Church stated that support of abortion disqualified a canidate for recieving the support of a Catholic. I am sure, however, you will pasre that simple statment to support your political views also.
 
irishpatrick said:
Perhaps YOU should ask why you want the unborn to continue being legally killed (if you do)?

Clever arguments only make you appear to be be quite to the plight of those being killed.

I wonder, if the Pope made a similar statement during Holocaust days, would you find a clever and fancy “loophole” to justify the continued slaughter of the Jews?

I grow quite sick of these fancy justifying arguments that do nothing but keep the killing going.
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What surprises me more is how no one argues vehemently for the Church to just openly excommunicate Catholic politicians who support abortion. It always has to be the “voter’s fault”, doesn’t it (even though they may vote for a different reason entirely)?

Over here, where I live, virtually all political parties support abortion no later than 20 weeks (26 weeks I think if 2 doctors agree). I’ll vote for who I want to vote without any guilt-tripping. The responsibility is on the authorities of the Church to make their pro-life stance known to the world by excommunicating Catholic politicians who give in to the pro-abortion movement. When the given politicians confess their sins, they should also be commanded to make a public denouncement of abortion. This would go so much further than the sophistry going on this forum about how being a Catholic and being a Democrat are mutually exclusive.

Thank you,
Eugen von Böhm-Bawerk
 
irishpatrick said:
Wrong–show us the absolute precise quote/reference from a formal Church proclamation stating that Catholics are NOT to be single issue voters. Show us that, or retract your statements above because if you refuse to retract, you will then be guilty of the exact form of extrapolation for which you condemn other people.
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I like the way Archbishop Chaput put it:

Obviously, we have other important issues facing us this fall: the economy, the war in Iraq, immigration justice. But we can’t build a healthy society while ignoring the routine and very profitable legalized homicide that goes on every day against America’s unborn children. The right to life is foundational. Every other right depends on it. Efforts to reduce abortions, or to create alternatives to abortion, or to foster an environment where more women will choose to keep their unborn child, can have great merit–but not if they serve to cover over or distract from the brutality and fundamental injustice of abortion itself. We should remember that one of the crucial things that set early Christians apart from the pagan culture around them was their rejection of abortion and infanticide. Yet for thirty-five years I’ve watched prominent “pro-choice” Catholics justify themselves with the kind of moral and verbal gymnastics that should qualify as an Olympic event. All they’ve really done is capitulate to Roe v. Wade.

Read more: blog.beliefnet.com/pontifications/2008/08/while-cardinal-george-the-pres.html#ixzz1NOABKpHb
 
estesbob said:
Actually the Church stated that support of abortion disqualified a canidate for recieving the support of a Catholic. I am sure, however, you will pasre that simple statment to support your political views also.
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Again, the Church NEVER said that Catholics are not to be single issue voters…that is a huge distortion. Here is the related text:

I]“As Catholics we are not single-issue voters. A candidate’s position on a single issue is not sufficient to guarantee a voter’s support. Yet a candidate’s position on a single issue that involves an intrinsic evil, such as support for legal abortion or the promotion of racism, may legitimately lead a voter to disqualify a candidate from receiving support.”​

Take note that from the above quote we can see that the Church actually says that if an issue is grave enough, Cahtholics may make them a single issue. It never says we cannot be single issue voters–it actually says it is quite understandable and right if we are (my interpreration).
 
estesbob said:
I like the way Archbishop Chaput put it:

Obviously, we have other important issues facing us this fall: the economy, the war in Iraq, immigration justice. But we can’t build a healthy society while ignoring the routine and very profitable legalized homicide that goes on every day against America’s unborn children. The right to life is foundational. Every other right depends on it. Efforts to reduce abortions, or to create alternatives to abortion, or to foster an environment where more women will choose to keep their unborn child, can have great merit–but not if they serve to cover over or distract from the brutality and fundamental injustice of abortion itself. We should remember that one of the crucial things that set early Christians apart from the pagan culture around them was their rejection of abortion and infanticide. Yet for thirty-five years I’ve watched prominent “pro-choice” Catholics justify themselves with the kind of moral and verbal gymnastics that should qualify as an Olympic event. All they’ve really done is capitulate to Roe v. Wade.

Read more: blog.beliefnet.com/pontifications/2008/08/while-cardinal-george-the-pres.html#ixzz1NOABKpHb
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All they have done is to contribute to the slaughter of more innocents.

It all makes me wonder. Do Catholics like that go to a local pub and sit around and celebrate their victories, all the while knowing that unborn babies are dying every single day thanks to their support of legal abortion? How does one live in such a closed life?

People, people, please quiet, quiet please. Everyone lift their mugs and join together in a toast for our hard-earned victory over those evil babies that might have been born if only we cared! Just think, if it were not for us, tomorrow 3,000 or more of those evil retches might have made their way into life…but NO!–we have stopped that from happening by making sure abortion remains legal–hurrah!
 
irishpatrick said:
Again, the Church NEVER said that Catholics are not to be single issue voters…that is a huge distortion. Here is the related text:

I]“As Catholics we are not single-issue voters. A candidate’s position on a single issue is not sufficient to guarantee a voter’s support. Yet a candidate’s position on a single issue that involves an intrinsic evil, such as support for legal abortion or the promotion of racism, may legitimately lead a voter to disqualify a candidate from receiving support.”
​
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​
Take note that from the above quote we can see that the Church actually says that if an issue is grave enough, Cahtholics may make them a single issue. It never says we cannot be single issue voters–it actually says it is quite understandable and right if we are (my interpreration).

I know-I always refer to pro abortion cathoics as single line voters. They take one line, out of context at that, from the faithful citizenships guide and claim that trumps the plethora of documents, quotes, etc showing that a Catholic can not support a pro-abortion canidate .
 
estesbob said:
I know-I always refer to pro abortion cathoics as single line voters. They take one line, out of context at that, from the faithful citizenships guide and claim that trumps the plethora of documents, quotes, etc showing that a Catholic can not support a pro-abortion canidate .
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I posted this in the presvious message, but will again here, it is fictional celebration of those Democratic Catholics who vote to keep abortion legal:

*People, people, please quiet, quiet please. Everyone lift their mugs and join together in a toast for our hard-earned victory over those evil babies that might have been born if only we cared! Just think, if it were not for us, tomorrow 3,000 or more of those evil retches might have made their way into life…but NO!–we have stopped that from happening by making sure abortion remains legal–hurrah! *

What a grand victory the left secures every election cycle…they get to fight off the evil GOP in order to keep killing unborn babies at sickening rates!
 
Scott_Lafrance said:
I’d hardly call 74% to 26% winning. He is the personally likable, articulate sitting President of the US and he is only garnering 26% of the poll. I wonder what would happen if there were other Democrats who were included, like maybe Mark Warner of Virginia, or Bill Nelson of Florida, or Susan Collins of Maine.
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He is winning. On a Catholic forum no less…
 
Bohm_Bawerk said:
What surprises me more is how no one argues vehemently for the Church to just openly excommunicate Catholic politicians who support abortion. It always has to be the “voter’s fault”, doesn’t it (even though they may vote for a different reason entirely)?

Over here, where I live, virtually all political parties support abortion no later than 20 weeks (26 weeks I think if 2 doctors agree). I’ll vote for who I want to vote without any guilt-tripping. The responsibility is on the authorities of the Church to make their pro-life stance known to the world by excommunicating Catholic politicians who give in to the pro-abortion movement. When the given politicians confess their sins, they should also be commanded to make a public denouncement of abortion. This would go so much further than the sophistry going on this forum about how being a Catholic and being a Democrat are mutually exclusive.

Thank you,
Eugen von Böhm-Bawerk
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Well, I think that would end the scandal that is currently happening where voters think that other reasons carry more weight than the defense of life.
 
I guess my last post was ignored, for whatever reasons, but I still hold to it.

I cannot believe that so many of you look to the US Bishops to be your sole conscience. The Pope > Bishop… period.

Unfortunately, we have a growing schism within the Church in America. There are True Catholic Bishops representing the Vatican that grow more vehemently opposed to liberal views that are in direct contradiction with Church Doctrine, and then there are a growing number of Bishops that are CINO. If you want proof, look at the growing number of democratic Catholics.
 
Bohm_Bawerk said:
What surprises me more is how no one argues vehemently for the Church to just openly excommunicate Catholic politicians who support abortion. It always has to be the “voter’s fault”, doesn’t it (even though they may vote for a different reason entirely)?

Over here, where I live, virtually all political parties support abortion no later than 20 weeks (26 weeks I think if 2 doctors agree). I’ll vote for who I want to vote without any guilt-tripping. The responsibility is on the authorities of the Church to make their pro-life stance known to the world by excommunicating Catholic politicians who give in to the pro-abortion movement. When the given politicians confess their sins, they should also be commanded to make a public denouncement of abortion. This would go so much further than the sophistry going on this forum about how being a Catholic and being a Democrat are mutually exclusive.

Thank you,
Eugen von Böhm-Bawerk
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You should be working to get politicians who will fight against legal abortion. Just sitting by and doing nothing helps nothing. Babies are dying while the world argues…
 
irishpatrick said:
Wrong–show us the absolute precise quote/reference from a formal Church proclamation stating that Catholics are NOT to be single issue voters. Show us that, or retract your statements above because if you refuse to retract, you will then be guilty of the exact form of extrapolation for which you condemn other people.
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Paragraph 29 of the USCCB document Faithful Citizenship speaks in detail of the need to look at all issues and not use a single issue as an excuse to turn a blind eye to a candidates stance on other issues. Paragraph 42 of the same document says it more directly “As Catholics we are not single issue voters.”
 
SwordandShield said:
I guess my last post was ignored, for whatever reasons, but I still hold to it.

I cannot believe that so many of you look to the US Bishops to be your sole conscience. The Pope > Bishop… period.

Unfortunately, we have a growing schism within the Church in America. There are True Catholic Bishops representing the Vatican that grow more vehemently opposed to liberal views that are in direct contradiction with Church Doctrine, and then there are a growing number of Bishops that are CINO. If you want proof, look at the growing number of democratic Catholics.
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Yes, the fact that there are so many Democratic Catholics is a reflection of the amazingly deep apostasy the Church is experiencing.
 
TMC said:
Paragraph 29 of the USCCB document Faithful Citizenship speaks in detail of the need to look at all issues and not use a single issue as an excuse to turn a blind eye to a candidates stance on other issues. Paragraph 42 of the same document says it more directly “As Catholics we are not single issue voters.”
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I posted the text…it does not say what you wrote here.

*As Catholics we are not single-issue voters. A candidate’s position on a single issue is not sufficient to guarantee a voter’s support. **Yet a candidate’s position on a single issue that involves an intrinsic evil, such as support for legal abortion or the promotion of racism, may legitimately lead a voter to disqualify a candidate from receiving support." ***

You justify your anti-life position by focusing only on the first part (sort of like how some Christians conduct proof-texting of the Bible), yet you ignore the second half, which is a critical piece.

Of course, in normal times, Catholics would NOT be single issue voters…that is obvious. Yet, as the text rightly states, when a candidates position on a SINGLE issue involves an intrinsic evil…may legitimately lead to…

Sure sounds like direct support for single issue voting to me!
 
irishpatrick said:
No–there are 92 non-Obama votes…to his 33 pro-Obama votes. That means when the time comes (at least from people here), he would lose.
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No. This is a conservative Forum. It tilts naturally to the right. It is interesting though, that on this Forum, the President is leading. You’d think that he’d be rejected outright.
 
Rich_Olszewski said:
No. This is a conservative Forum. It tilts naturally to the right. It is interesting though, that on this Forum, the President is leading. You’d think that he’d be rejected outright.
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Nah–redo the poll and make it one popular conservative candidate versus Obama, and Obama would lose by a large margin.
 
irishpatrick said:
Nah–redo the poll and make it one popular conservative candidate versus Obama, and Obama would lose by a large margin.
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Oh? Who’s the one popular conservative candidate? It was my understanding that there’s no one so far ahead of the other GOP candidates as to be called that.
 
Rich_Olszewski said:
Oh? Who’s the one popular conservative candidate? It was my understanding that there’s no one so far ahead of the other GOP candidates as to be called that.
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It is too early to tell…my point is if selected one popular candidate, Obama would lose on this forum by a wide margin.
 
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