Who Will You Vote For in 2012?

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estesbob said:
And they are wrong, both in their view and in their contnetion that they have properly formed conscience. . In fact if they hold this view it is obvious that they have either not troubled to learn what the Church teaches or have decided that their political views are more important than their faith.
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I understand that you believe that you are able to decide whether another has a properly formed conscience or not, but that is not a gift the rest of us share. In the meantime, I will simply do my best to follow the Church’s teachings and to form and follow my own conscience in these matters.
 
Demforlife said:
When will you all learn? The abortion issue is lost. We cannot stop it through Congress, or our state legislatures, or any other elected official. The Supreme Court time and time again ruled that abortion is a constitutional right. How about we stop supporting the Party that lies to us and pulls reverse socialism on us. You are all against socialism but you don’t realize that the Republican Party is the socialist party for the rich. You hate theft but you are ok with them stealing the poor’s money to give to the wealthy. You say it is ok to bomb children in Iraq as long as the Republicans claim to care for the unborn. You claim Catholics that have a brain and know that the Republicans are liers are false Catholics. Anyone who claims that the Democrats are the Party of Death need to have their brain examined. The Republican Party is the party of death. Of the seven justices in the majority during Roe v. Wade, 5 of them were Republicans. Ronald Reagan, as governor of California, legalized abortion before Roe v. Wade. Why did the Republicans do nothing to stop abortion when they controlled the Presidency, Senate, House, and Supreme Court from 2001-2007? Why didn’t they do anything? It’s because they need your votes. Every year they claim they will stop abortion but all they do is toss out some bones to get your support. The partial birth abortion ban, which stops around 1,000 abortions a year? Give me a break. The Republican Party is nothing more than a party of anti-christs.
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A self fulfilling prophecy-the abortion issue is lost therefore its OK to vote for those who support abortion. Or to put it another way “Its ok to support evil as long as you believe evil has won”

Your post, BTW, validates the observation in my signature.
 
TMC said:
I understand that you believe that you are able to decide whether another has a properly formed conscience or not, but that is not a gift the rest of us share. In the meantime, I will simply do my best to follow the Church’s teachings and to form and follow my own conscience in these matters.
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Its not what I "believe " its what the Church teaches. i was very carefull to back up my assertions with direct quotes from members of the magestrium and church documents. Your only rebuttla was to claim they didnt mean what theyclearly said.

When one rejects the teachings of the Church it is easy to tell their conscience is not properly formed.
 
estesbob said:
Its not what I "believe " its what the Church teaches. i was very carefull to back up my assertions with direct quotes from members of the magestrium and church documents. Your only rebuttla was to claim they didnt mean what theyclearly said.

When one rejects the teachings of the Church it is easy to tell their conscience is not properly formed.
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OK, we obviously read the same Church documents to mean very different things. I don’t know that further arguing about what the documents mean will resolve that. You seem confident you are correct, and I know I am very confident I have it right. I think that is the most positive thing I can say about it right now.
 
TMC said:
Many Catholics with properly formed consciences have concluded that there are issues that can outweigh the fact that one candidate is more pro-choice than the other. The whole point of our disagreement, I think, is that some Catholics believe that the only thing Catholics should do is to vote for the person they perceive to be the most pro-life, where pro-life refers only to the abortion issue. I think that Catholics should do more than that, and that a Catholic with a properly formed conscience can decide that it is moral and proper to vote for a candidate despite the fact that he or she is worse on that one issue than the other candidate.
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Tell me one issue that is greater than the intentional and so-called legal murder of 50,000,000+ innocent lives since 1973. Please.
 
estesbob said:
A self fulfilling prophecy-the abortion issue is lost therefore its OK to vote for those who support abortion. Or to put it another way “Its ok to support evil as long as you believe evil has won”

Your post, BTW, validates the observation in my signature.
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Exactly.

I wonder, as bad as things looked during WWII, what would have happened if the allied nations just “gave up,” and walked away.

or

Woudl the USA ever have come into existence of the revolutionaries–who face incredible odds–just gave up and walked away.

or

Most importantly of all, would Christianity ever have taken root of the early martyrs just gave up and walked away.
 
Those 50,000,000 lives are on the Republicans hands. They ruled on Roe v. Wade and they never tried to stop it. The biggest attempt to stop it was by Democratic Governor Bob Casey in 1992.
 
irishpatrick said:
Tell me one issue that is greater than the intentional and so-called legal murder of 50,000,000+ innocent lives since 1973. Please.
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If you were capable of reading and understanding my posts (no insult intended), I would expect that you would have seen that I have never asserted that there was “one issue” that was greater than abortion.
 
estesbob said:
Its not what I "believe " its what the Church teaches. i was very carefull to back up my assertions with direct quotes from members of the magestrium and church documents. Your only rebuttla was to claim they didnt mean what theyclearly said.

When one rejects the teachings of the Church it is easy to tell their conscience is not properly formed.
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There is a sad truth that logic will never overcome “no logic”. When certain people are presented with facts and statements and wisdom contrary to what they have been brought up to believe, they will either ignore your argument, or attempt to argue against it without any real logic on their part citing opinions over the facts you show.

Estesbob, you are absolutely correct in that no issue(s) can amount to persuading a devout Roman Catholic from voting against a Pro-Abortion candidate. All pope’s have said it, and it is for this reason that I see a growing concern from within our Church that leads our flock astray directly or through omission.

You cannot be Roman Catholic and support Abortion, and when you fail your duty to vote for the Dignity of Life, you support Abortion through the sin of omission.
 
Demforlife said:
Those 50,000,000 lives are on the Republicans hands. They ruled on Roe v. Wade and they never tried to stop it. The biggest attempt to stop it was by Democratic Governor Bob Casey in 1992.
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The Dems are saints, they haven’t fought like evil alley cats for over three decades to keep abortion legal–that was all the GOP.

Nah, the Dems don’t support Planned Parenthood. They don’t support lawsuits at every turn to keep abortion legal; they don’t have litmus tests and formal party planks stating they are for abortion. Nah–the GOP is really all those things and more. 👍
 
They support Planned Parenthood because they want to protect women’s healthcare that has nothing to do with abortion. Democrats always support the Hyde Amendment. The Republicans have destroyed the pro-life movement by associating their anti-poor, anti-elderly, anti-middle class, anti-immgrant, and anti-union policies with defending the unborn. People are repulsed by the Republicans on most issues and the only thing that gets them votes are abortion and playing off ignorant people’s fears of minorities.
 
TMC said:
If you were capable of reading and understanding my posts (no insult intended), I would expect that you would have seen that I have never asserted that there was “one issue” that was greater than abortion.
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I realized that–I placing a challenge to you since you have tried to challenge us. Name on issue (outside nuclear war) that is greater than abortion. If you cannot, then why are you arguing?
 
Demforlife said:
They support Planned Parenthood because they want to protect women’s healthcare that has nothing to do with abortion. Democrats always support the Hyde Amendment. The Republicans have destroyed the pro-life movement by associating their anti-poor, anti-elderly, anti-middle class, anti-immgrant, and anti-union policies with defending the unborn. People are repulsed by the Republicans on most issues and the only thing that gets them votes are abortion and playing off ignorant people’s fears of minorities.
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Nonsense…uter and absolute nonsense. Planned Parenthood kills more babies then anyone else in the nation and the dems fight like crazy to fund them and to keep them going…it has nothing at all to do with womens health because women can get that anywhere–but they cannot get abortion anywhere.

The GOP is not any off those things you claim…and that can be proved, yet that would take us way off target and is not worth the time anyway because you won’t believe facts.

People are repulsed by Republicans? Really? Did you see how many people voted for McCain? He was a terrible candidate and he was just a few percent away from winning. How about Bush I and II, or Reagan…people hated them–really? See, the left says things and they think by saying it it must be true. Utter nonsense. Laughable nonsense.
 
irishpatrick said:
I am all for being charitable…yet an evil law and evil practice are evil no matter how we sping it. In the end, there are ways to reduce abortions…but frankly that just is not enough. Abortion should be banned by law…anyone who does it after that is doing so against the law.

A moral people does not stand for killing its own, just as slavery also could not stand.
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Well, I disagree that abortion must be banned by the laws of men. Women do not need the laws of men to tell then not to have abortions - no women WANTS to have an abortion. It is a violation of natural law. Women have abortions out of ignorance, fear and coercion. If laws are needed, it is to protect women from these things, not to strip us of our dignity, and take away the trust God has given to us and put it into the hands of government.

God gave to women the responsibility to protect the most vulnerable of humans - FOR A REASON. We are best suited for it. He trusts us - maybe you should too. Help us to do our job and we will do what we have always done - protect our babies.

You may not like the New Feminism - but here it is.
 
Demforlife said:
They support Planned Parenthood because they want to protect women’s healthcare that has nothing to do with abortion. Democrats always support the Hyde Amendment. The Republicans have destroyed the pro-life movement by associating their anti-poor, anti-elderly, anti-middle class, anti-immgrant, and anti-union policies with defending the unborn. People are repulsed by the Republicans on most issues and the only thing that gets them votes are abortion and playing off ignorant people’s fears of minorities.
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Do you understand how Planned Parenthood came to be? Margaret Sanger is a horrible person, (founder of Planned Parenthood). Allow me to shed some light:

Margaret Sanger is an advocate for eugenics. She built Planned Parenthood not in order to protect women, but to stop minorities from reproducing. You can read a large segment here: forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=71868.0

I warn you, it is quite long, but Planned Parenthood is not an institution for good, not when they own the largest Abortion Clinic in the nation.
 
SwordandShield said:
Do you understand how Planned Parenthood came to be? Margaret Sanger is a horrible person, (founder of Planned Parenthood). Allow me to shed some light:

Margaret Sanger is an advocate for eugenics. She built Planned Parenthood not in order to protect women, but to stop minorities from reproducing. You can read a large segment here: forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=71868.0

I warn you, it is quite long, but Planned Parenthood is not an institution for good, not when they own the largest Abortion Clinic in the nation.
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I do not support Planned Parenthood, and am well aware of the harm it has done to women.
 
bellasbane said:
Well, I disagree that abortion must be banned by the laws of men. Women do not need the laws of men to tell then not to have abortions - no women WANTS to have an abortion. It is a violation of natural law. Women have abortions out of ignorance, fear and coercion. If laws are needed, it is to protect women from these things, not to strip us of our dignity, and take away the trust God has given to us and put it into the hands of government.

God gave to women the responsibility to protect the most vulnerable of humans - FOR A REASON. We are best suited for it. He trusts us - maybe you should too. Help us to do our job and we will do what we have always done - protect our babies.

You may not like the New Feminism - but here it is.
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But you support laws against rape and murder? You just said “if laws are needed, it is to protect women from these things…” So which is it? Do you need laws, or not?

And this part -

"not to strip us of our dignity, and take away the trust God has given to us and put it into the hands of government."

is just mellowdrama. Please. No one is trying to strip women of their dignity. They are trying to afford the unborn the dignity of being born, as God intended. Do you honestly believe that the goal of the pro-life movement at its core is first to rip away women’s dignity, and not to save babies lives? Again, don’t be so mellowdramatic.
 
He_Man said:
But you support laws against rape and murder? You jusy said “if laws are needed, it is to protect women from these things…” So which is it? Do you need laws, or not?
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Why don’t you click on my banner - that will explain a lot.
 
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