Who Will You Vote For in 2012?

  • Thread starter Thread starter gilliam
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Supporting Church references for your conclusion, please.
faithfulcitizenship.org/church/statements

In Forming Consciences for Faithful Citizenship the USCCB states:
  1. There may be times when a Catholic who rejects a candidate’s unacceptable
    position [abortion] may decide to vote for that candidate for other morally grave reasons.
    Voting in this way would be permissible only for truly grave moral reasons, not to
    advance narrow interests or partisan preferences or to ignore a fundamental
    moral evil.
So even though it is true that abortion is the most important issue for Catholics in mainstream American politics and it is extremely difficult to justify voting for pro-choice politicians here, it is at least a possibility in extraordinary circumstances. (Circumstances that I would personally say do not currently exist in the United States, but the bishops have no specific teachings on when a pro-life politician would be immoral enough to warrant voting pro-choice)
 
GOP platform: “courts must have the option of imposing the death penalty in capital murder cases, etc.”

CCC 2267: “The Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty”

Now contrast the Catholic Church and the Democrat party on abortion rights:

Democrats stand behind the right of every woman to choose
ontheissues.org/celeb/Democratic_Party_Abortion.htm

CC 2270: “Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception. From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person - among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life.

So I ask you Cmatt, which platform is more in opposition to Catholic moral teaching on the sanctity of life - the GOP or the Democrat party?

Ishii
Ishii, what you originally asked was what part of the Republican platform is out of sinc with Catholic teaching and I gave you an example. The CCC clearly states the death penalty should only be an option only in those very rare, if not non-existent cases where society can not be protected by imprisonment. But the GOP platform states it should be available not only in murder cases but for other henious crimes as well. 🤷

What the Democratic Party says about choice is totally unrelated to what you originally asked. But just as many Catholics it appears to me overlook the death penalty, choice is not a primary issue in which I base my vote on of the many issues I consider. I am not a single issue voter Ishii and the Catholic bishops even have said Catholics are not So this next question you asked is moot to me.

Peace to you Ishii and God bless!
 
Let me tell you something Rich, my ex-sister-in-law lost her job to a layoff. She has three children that she is raising on her own. She has been looking, and has been unable to find a job. The extension of her unemployment benefits is the only way that she was able to pay her bills and feed herself and her kids. NO ONE CARES about other people’s problems and it can’t be anymore obvious than when people state that it is selfish to vote in favor of such benefits over the abortion issue. These are people who are already born, and struggling. The extension of unemployment benefits is insignificant to those unaffected by it. And even more, it’s hated to those who have to pay it.

Health insurance for kids until their 26? Who cares? Not those who don’t need it. What about those who need it? Who cares. They’re on their own, or at least some think they should be.

Ex-sister-in-law has been going to food banks lately. The cost of food is rising, and she doesn’t have enough money to support herself and the kids. She is in the process of applying for food stamps. I hope she gets them. I don’t know what she will do if she doesn’t. I guess she could keep going to the food bank and hope they can always provide for her. Because she still hasn’t been able to find a job.

Sorry, but abortion is not my single most important ever in the world issue. Women will continue to have abortions if they want them, whether they’re legal or not, whether legislation screws up every other secular insitution or not, whether they’re expensive or cheap, whether they have to drive to another state or not, whether a doctor or a meat packer performs it, and whether I agree with it or not. But my family and friends need help now. If there is a politician out there running who can help my family and friends now, or they have already done so, and I think they will continue to do so, then that candidate has my vote.

There is no perfect candidate. There is only a lesser screw-up.
Rence I think you said it all. That is I believe too a huge problem with society today. Too many people don’t care about other people, the less fortunate, thy neighbors. They think as long as the rich get their tax cuts for instance, then all will be fine with the world. I can only imagine they think individuals and faith based groups can handle all the problems. And can only guess they must think Jesus would turn away government’s additional offer to provide a role in aiding and serving and helping others. But I don’t believe for a nanosecond Jesus would ever turn away such help for the poor and those in need. God bless you Rence for caring and saying what you said.
 
Nevertheless, Bush appointed two justices who are reasonably regarded as prolife. Obama appointed two who are reasonably regarded as pro-abortion. Kennedy notwithstanding, it has to be admitted that EVERY prolife justice is a Repub appointee, while EVERY Dem appointee is pro-abortion.
Given that 12 of the last 16 justices have been appointed by Republicans, I think it is fair to say that the Republicans have had much more influence over the make up of the court in the last 40-odd years than the Democrats have. I think that it is also fair to say that Clinton’s appointees have turned out to be pro-choice, but it is a bit early to say how Obama’s will stack up. I fully expect Kagan to be pro-choice, I am less sure about Sotomayor, but neither has a long enough track record to say much authoritatively about how they will turn out. On the other side of the ledger, I think that Roberts clearly supports allowing laws that limit abortion, but I don’t see anything that convinces me that if push came to shove he would vote to actually overturn Roe v. Wade. Alito’s position seems reasonably clear from his ealier rulings as a lower court justice, but Roberts’ exact position on the issue remains unclear.
 
Well, actually, if they have been Baptized Catholic, the Church teaches they are Catholic, no matter who they vote for…who they vote for isn’t going to erase the indelible mark made by Baptism.

When I read the voting guidelines put out by the US Bishops, I didn’t see any forbidding of voting for pro-choice candidates. What I read was a list of issues to consider, and that we are not supposed to be single issue voters. And that the position of pro-choice may disqualify a vote, but not anything that required we not vote for a pro-choice candidate. We can argue back and forth about it. But there it is in black and white. I’ve talked with two different priests about it at length and I am comfortable with my decision to vote with my conscience. Everyone has to do the same.

Voters are stil going to vote for issues that are most important to them. Abortion is an important issue for sure, but it’s not going to be the deciding factor for many people. People want to make sure their livelihoods, their homes, their ability to feed themselves and their families are protected first.
Good points Rence. It always surprises me when a Catholic, especially those who consider themselves faithful to all teaching, then tells another Catholic they are not to identify themselves as a Catholic though their Church teaches both are Catholics. I think in some cases such a position might only serve to drive others further away. And I read the same thing you did about Catholics are not being single issue voters. Unless perhaps abortion was the only issue 2 candidates differed on. Peace.
 
They are trying to challenge it at a constitutional level. I doubt they will be successful. The Republicans have worked hard to get their base to say they don’t like it and want it repealed. If people actually knew how they benefited from the reform the Republicans would be shown the door and their blind allegiance to big corporations like the insurance industry would be exposed. Don’t worry though, it probably won’t happen.
Have you read any portions of the bill? Do you favor the provisions regarding seniors? Do you favor the provisions regarding selling of ones home starting in 2012? Are you aware of all the little “goodies” that are in the bill that have nothing to do with health care? Do you favor all the companies that are being allowed to opt out of the health care program? Do you favor the Congress not having to rely on that plan for their own health care? To say that we will benefit by this program is a far, far stretch. I think if more people took the time to find out more about it, the numbers that now oppose it would grow even bigger than they are now.
 
Ishii, what you originally asked was what part of the Republican platform is out of sinc with Catholic teaching and I gave you an example. The CCC clearly states the death penalty should only be an option only in those very rare, if not non-existent cases where society can not be protected by imprisonment. But the GOP platform states it should be available not only in murder cases but for other henious crimes as well. 🤷

What the Democratic Party says about choice is totally unrelated to what you originally asked. But just as many Catholics it appears to me overlook the death penalty, choice is not a primary issue in which I base my vote on of the many issues I consider. I am not a single issue voter Ishii and the Catholic bishops even have said Catholics are not So this next question you asked is moot to me.

Peace to you Ishii and God bless!
Manifestly, the U.S. penal system is unable to protect others from some violent offenders. Killings, rapes and maimings happen in prisons and killings, rapes, tortures and maimings are ordered from prisons and carried out on the outside. Until every potentially violent prisoner in the U.S. is in a Supermax kind of situation, that will not change.

Now, what did Pope JPII mean when he said the conditions for capital punishment are “practically nonexistent”? Nobody knows, because he didn’t elaborate. Quite possibly he meant that modern societies could afford Supermax type imprisonment if they just had the will to do it, and ought to dedicate the resources to it. But nobody knows. The CCC has taken a leaf from his statement and narrowed the permissibility of capital punishment in general terms, but without stating the conditions in practical terms. But it has always been the position of the Church that capital punishment is permissible as a general principle.

I’m sure someone on here will also remind us that the Catholic Church has long taught that prevention is not the only basis for the state justly imposing capital punishment. But I’ll let somebody else do that.

I say all of that as an opponent of capital punishment who nevertheless supports Republicans (despite being a Democrat from birth) precisely because the Democrat party is utterly wedded to abortion on demand. Imposing capital punishment on a handful of those guilty of heinous crimes is a far, far thing from the killing of tens of millions of innocents.

I oppose capital punishment only because Pope JPII spoke against it. But I am certainly not persuaded that it is PRESENTLY something the need for which is non-existent.
 
Now, what did Pope JPII mean when he said the conditions for capital punishment are “practically nonexistent”? Nobody knows, because he didn’t elaborate. Quite possibly he meant that modern societies could afford Supermax type imprisonment if they just had the will to do it, and ought to dedicate the resources to it.
Very rare if not practically non existent seems to me to mean just that. It clearly does not mean to me a general support of the death penalty in cases of murder and other henious crimes. And I think you touched upon something to consider. Perhaps JP2 did mean sometimes we have to pay the price to keep society from playing God with the death penalty. In any case God bless and peace.
 
45 people who will vote for Barack Obama. If these are Catholics, they should be ashamed of themselves. :mad:
 
They are trying to challenge it at a constitutional level. I doubt they will be successful. The Republicans have worked hard to get their base to say they don’t like it and want it repealed. If people actually knew how they benefited from the reform the Republicans would be shown the door and their blind allegiance to big corporations like the insurance industry would be exposed. Don’t worry though, it probably won’t happen.
If this legislation is so wonderful, why have so many exemptions been issued before it is even fully in force? Why does any company or state need an exemption from this life-saving legislation?

🤷:confused:
 
Very rare if not practically non existent seems to me to mean just that. It clearly does not mean to me a general support of the death penalty in cases of murder and other henious crimes. And I think you touched upon something to consider. Perhaps JP2 did mean sometimes we have to pay the price to keep society from playing God with the death penalty. In any case God bless and peace.
He almost had to mean that, because heinous crimes are committed all the time in prisons and by orders from prisons. He was European, and perhaps things are different there when it comes to security, but it’s hard for me to believe he was utterly unaware of what goes on in U.S. prisons.
 
Voting in the USA seems to have come down to one issue:

“Which party will give ME the most stuff?” And then the person picks the party that will hand over the stash. For Democrats, that means access to ABC, abortion, and welfare for the poor (mostly black Americans). For Republicans, less regulation and taxes so businesses can make more profits.

And nothing but nothing is going to shift anyone’s position. No matter what Obama does between now and Nov. 2012, he will still have many voters including Catholics. That is how entrenched the sides have become. No matter what issue comes up, it will be defended. He wasn’t elected only based on his race, that was the cherry on top. Black Democrats would still have voted for a Democrat, even Hillary, before they would ever even consider the other candidate.

I have told many people this - if someone who was anti-abortion, small-government, strong on national defense, strong on the border and who would lower taxes, and he or she had a (D) after his/her name, I’d vote for that person. But I seriously doubt if anyone on the other side would consider switching no matter what.
 
But it is a NON-NEGOTIABLE issue along with Euthanasia, Fetal Stem Cell Research, Human Cloning & Homosexual “Marriage”. These five issues are called non-negotiable because they concern actions that are always morally wrong and it is a serious sin to endorse or promote any of these actions.
The fact is, what is non-negotiable are issues that will affect people who are in danger of going hungry or who are in danger of losing their homes, or who are in danger of losing their livelihoods.
 
45 people who will vote for Barack Obama. If these are Catholics, they should be ashamed of themselves. :mad:
I'm not even a Catholic, but as a Christian, I'm ashamed for them. Look at yesterday: This so-called Commander-in-Chief laid a wreath at the Tomb of the Unknowns, and later referred to our US military as "ONE OF THE BEST fighting forces in the world". Then, he played yet ANOTHER round of golf! What a farcical man. He would be sad and pathetic were he not dangerous, and destructive of our nation. :o Rob
 
If this legislation is so wonderful, why have so many exemptions been issued before it is even fully in force? Why does any company or state need an exemption from this life-saving legislation?

🤷:confused:
30% of the latest exemptions went to Nancy Pelosi's district. She jammed the damned 2700 page debacle down our throats while holding Congress hostage over Christmas! The radical left is in denial about this, as well as his entire horrific Presidency. Hey it's THEIR kids too whose futures are being wrecked by this corrupt man!!! Rob
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top