Who Will You Vote For in 2012?

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Supporting Church references for your conclusion, please.
In the US Bishops guideline for voting:
  1. There may be times when a Catholic who rejects a candidate’s unacceptable
    position [abortion] may decide to vote for that candidate for other morally grave reasons.
    Voting in this way would be permissible only for truly grave moral reasons, not to
    advance narrow interests or partisan preferences or to ignore a fundamental
    moral evil.
I understand this is difficult for some people, but the fact is, some voters might consider job losses, higher taxes, health care, feeding the hungry, and other very important issues to be a “grave moral reason”. In fact, they may be, or know someone, who is in immediate danger regarding these issues. I don’t think there’s anything moral about voting in a “pro-life” candidate who will raise housing taxes so high that people will lose their homes and/or farms, or that will be denied health care coverage, or who will be made ineligible to receive food stamps, or who will be denied extended unemployment coverage. I don’t think there is anything immoral about voting for a candidate who will extend benefits to those who need it. And I think a lot of people agree with me… Yes, absolutely, abortion is a grave matter, but it’s not the only grave matter. It’s not the only issue to affect people today and now.
 
I remember how Bush made it clear that he was not going to use a Roe v. Wade litmus test on his nominations. I also remember that it was Kennedy (Reagan’s appointment) that voted to maintain Roe v. Wade. One of the definitions of insanity is to do the same thing over and over and expect different results. Abortion will always be my highest factor in voting. I am not convinced that it is for the Republican Party, or more to the point, for all Republican candidates.
He reinstated the Mexico CCity Policy, appointed towo pro-life judges to the USSC and a dozen or so to Federal District Courts. he also prmoted and signed the first restriction on an abortion procedure since Roe was imposed.

. Politics aside a person who supports abortion on demand is so morally flawed they should not be trusted to hold elected office at any level of govt.
 
In the US Bishops guideline for voting:
  1. There may be times when a Catholic who rejects a candidate’s unacceptable
    position [abortion] may decide to vote for that candidate for other morally grave reasons.
    Voting in this way would be permissible only for truly grave moral reasons, not to
    advance narrow interests or partisan preferences or to ignore a fundamental
    moral evil.
I understand this is difficult for some people, but the fact is, some voters might consider job losses, higher taxes, health care, feeding the hungry, and other very important issues to be a “grave moral reason”. In fact, they may be, or know someone, who is in immediate danger regarding these issues. I don’t think there’s anything moral about voting in a “pro-life” candidate who will raise housing taxes so high that people will lose their homes and/or farms, or that will be denied health care coverage, or who will be made ineligible to receive food stamps, or who will be denied extended unemployment coverage. I don’t think there is anything immoral about voting for a candidate who will extend benefits to those who need it. And I think a lot of people agree with me… Yes, absolutely, abortion is a grave matter, but it’s not the only grave matter. It’s not the only issue to affect people today and now.
What is diffcult for people to beleive is that anyone could read the Bishops statement and beleive they can support a pro-abortion canidate becuase the “feel” they are better on other issues. . To do so takes selective reading of only a few lines of USCCB documents and totally ignoring the vast amount of documents the Church has issued on this subject.
 
Very rare if not practically non existent seems to me to mean just that. It clearly does not mean to me a general support of the death penalty in cases of murder and other henious crimes. And I think you touched upon something to consider. Perhaps JP2 did mean sometimes we have to pay the price to keep society from playing God with the death penalty. In any case God bless and peace.
Interesting how many on the Left ignore the Churchs clear teaching regading abortion while trying to twist Church teaching on Captial punishment to fit their political views
 
Nice to know that someone agrees with me
I’m sure they all agree with you. But until they learn to keep their hands to themselves, the truth hurts.

Tyranny comes in many forms.

Abortion would be illegal in my state, so I tend to point the finger at progressives/liberals, Bill Mahr, John Stewart and other folks like that.
 
Voting in the USA seems to have come down to one issue:

“Which party will give ME the most stuff?” And then the person picks the party that will hand over the stash. For Democrats, that means access to ABC, abortion, and welfare for the poor (mostly black Americans). For Republicans, less regulation and taxes so businesses can make more profits.

And nothing but nothing is going to shift anyone’s position. No matter what Obama does between now and Nov. 2012, he will still have many voters including Catholics. That is how entrenched the sides have become. No matter what issue comes up, it will be defended. He wasn’t elected only based on his race, that was the cherry on top. Black Democrats would still have voted for a Democrat, even Hillary, before they would ever even consider the other candidate.

I have told many people this - if someone who was anti-abortion, small-government, strong on national defense, strong on the border and who would lower taxes, and he or she had a (D) after his/her name, I’d vote for that person. But I seriously doubt if anyone on the other side would consider switching no matter what.
I think we need to recognize that New Deal and Great Society programs are almost certain to remain in place, no matter what. Imaginably, the Paul Ryans of the congress might propose some trimming, and some Democrat or other might propose some additions, but fundamentally it will be almost impossible to change any of them.

And Democrats are at least as much in bed with big business as the Republicans are. Look who got the big Wall Street money in 2008. It wasn’t the Republicans. We need to rid ourselves of stereotypes that no longer bear any reasonable relationship to reality.

It is probable, though, that Obama will promise some new “pie in the sky” thing for the 2012 election; some middle class bribe, just as he did in 2008. Repubs almost certainly won’t, and will try to repeal Obamacare, a middle class welfare bribe that most are now seeing as illusory. There could be a “once bitten, twice shy” reaction among many.

“White guilt” voters and the dedicated left won’t change, of course.

But when it comes to abortion, one party is totally, utterly dedicated to abortion on demand, and one generally opposes it. If one feels a moral obligation to oppose abortion on demand and our being forced to support it, then one has to oppose those who favor it, and to do it effectively (voting third party isn’t effective). It’s really not complicated at all.

When it comes to Catholics, though, I’m not sure the support for Obama is necessarily very strong. In 2008, 54% of white Catholics voted against him. It was only the Hispanic Catholic vote that gave him a majority of Catholics. Will the 54% increase? It could. Evidently, some 30% of Catholic women have had abortions; a fact that makes one think the majority of them might feel personally invested in it. And, there would have been complicit persons (parents, boyfriends) who might feel the same way. There is still some room for movement, though. Those who are not complicit in abortion and who voted for Obama in the belief that he would somehow serve “social justice” might well come to realize the truth; that it’s all talk and no do.

And among Hispanics? I don’t know. I know a fair number of them, and those of Mexican heritage, at least, absolutely resist being forced to do anything that costs money, even more than native born whites do. A much greater number of them than whites simply refuse to take employer-based health insurance, because they think of it as coercion. Will they figure out, by 2012, that Obamacare is not “free”; that if they have a decent job it’s going to cost them and that they will be forced to buy insurance or get fined? Maybe the ones I know are unique, but as I said, they are extraordinarily resistant to economic coercion. It’s one thing to be on the receiving end of social programs. It’s entirely another to be on the paying end. And never have I met a people as averse to paying interest as Mexican-Americans are. Obama will lean mightily on Bernanke to keep rates down, but it might not be possible to keep the lid on through November, 2012. Obama can go down and joke about alligators all he wants, but Mexican-American Hispanics, at least the ones I know, care a lot more about things like coerced costs and interest rates than they do about people who want to come across the border. And, at least among Mexican-Americans, 'gay marriage" is anathema. They are among the most “homophobic” people on the face of the earth. How many of them really oppose abortion on demand? We don’t know, but it’s almost certainly greater than among white Americans. Without a convincing promise of economic benefit, they might abandon Obama in greater numbers than we might now think.
 
What is diffcult for people to beleive is that anyone could read the Bishops statement and beleive they can support a pro-abortion canidate becuase the “feel” they are better on other issues. . To do so takes selective reading of only a few lines of USCCB documents and totally ignoring the vast amount of documents the Church has issued on this subject.
I think it’s more difficult to believe that someone would vote for someone who would make immediate aspects of life more difficult for others for the sole purpose that they’re the only “pro-life” candidate. And I think I’m not the only one…otherwise Obama wouldn’t have won the last election.
 
I think it’s more difficult to believe that someone would vote for someone who would make immediate aspects of life more difficult for others for the sole purpose that they’re the only “pro-life” candidate. And I think I’m not the only one…otherwise Obama wouldn’t have won the last election.
I find it hard ti believe that anyone would jusfiy the killing of othersfor the "greater good"promote social . The Church most certainly doesnt. The Church makes it clear that no isse or cobination of issues trumps abortion.

I
 
Given that 12 of the last 16 justices have been appointed by Republicans, I think it is fair to say that the Republicans have had much more influence over the make up of the court in the last 40-odd years than the Democrats have. I think that it is also fair to say that Clinton’s appointees have turned out to be pro-choice, but it is a bit early to say how Obama’s will stack up. I fully expect Kagan to be pro-choice, I am less sure about Sotomayor, but neither has a long enough track record to say much authoritatively about how they will turn out. On the other side of the ledger, I think that Roberts clearly supports allowing laws that limit abortion, but I don’t see anything that convinces me that if push came to shove he would vote to actually overturn Roe v. Wade. Alito’s position seems reasonably clear from his ealier rulings as a lower court justice, but Roberts’ exact position on the issue remains unclear.
I think its more relavent to look at the nominations to the Supreme court since the 1973 Roe v Wade decision. Reagan gave us three: Sandra Day O’connor, Scalia, and Kennedy. I will grant you that O’connor was an unfortunate pick, but Scalia was good, and I think I already pointed out that Anthony Kennedy was the 3rd choice of Reagan - his first choice was Bork, but the catholic Democrats in the senate prevented him from being approved. George HW Bush gave us Clarence Thomas and anyone who is old enough will know that the Democrats fought tooth and nail to prevent him from getting approved - even to the point of giving him a “high tech lynching”. George W Bush gave us Roberts and Alito and its impossible to say either way how they would vote on a challenge to Roe V Wade. But I am hopeful that they would vote to overturn it. So that’s four good picks out of six - and one of the bad ones can be blamed on the Democratic Senate. Compare that to the picks of the Democrat presidents: Clinton gave us Breyer and Ginsburg - two solid pro-abortion rights justices. Obama, the most pro-abortion rights president in history picked the next two - Sotomayer and Kagan. You’re right, Sotomayer is the one that has the remotest possibility of being a surprise vote to overturn. But I wouldn’t bet on it. So, six to four after 1973, and the Democrat senate in 1987 essentially kept Reagan from getting his choice approved. Given that, I think its much closer to the truth to say that the Democrat party has had almost as much an influence on the supreme court as the GOP - atleast since 1973.

Ishii
 
I find it hard ti believe that anyone would jusfiy the killing of othersfor the "greater good"promote social . The Church most certainly doesnt. The Church makes it clear that no isse or cobination of issues trumps abortion.

I
I didn’t see that written in the US Bishops voting guide. What I did see is that we are called to not be single issue voters. They place very big importance on the abortion issue, but they also listed various issues that were to be considered as well. And while they said that being pro-choice “may disqualify” a vote, they certainly did not forbid it, and therefore they do not make clear in any way that no issue or combination of issues trumps abortion. It does not. Many issues are important and are considered in the overall picture. Now, you are free to vote as you please. I will too. We all vote with our conscience and want to make the world a better place. We all want abortion to be not chosen. But we don’t all go about it the same way. We all want what’s best for our society. We’re not all going to go the same route to make that happen – because there is no single route.
 
Abortion would be illegal in my state, so I tend to point the finger at progressives/liberals, Bill Mahr, John Stewart and other folks like that.
How would those TV personalities be able to influence a vote for or against abortion?
 
That’s absolutely true.

And…?
"One of the best"! How magnanimous of this clown to tell our military families that their "leader" thinks of them so highly! The gravity of Memorial Day, and its ceremonies SHOULD compel a real man to perhaps spend the day talking to families or visiting the wounded. Apparently, there aren't enough of his voters who care whether the Commander-in-Chief to spend his day in solemnity. :( Rob
 
They all have their hands in on the progressive movement that’s brought us abortion on demand.
Just because someone leans left or is an out and out liberal doesn’t mean that one is pro-abortion. No more than being a rightist means that one is pro-war and anti-poor people. :confused:
 
What is diffcult for people to beleive is that anyone could read the Bishops statement and beleive they can support a pro-abortion canidate becuase the “feel” they are better on other issues. . To do so takes selective reading of only a few lines of USCCB documents and totally ignoring the vast amount of documents the Church has issued on this subject.
BHO believes in abortion right up until the cord is cut, and wants taxpayer dollars to pay for them. He is unmoved by the fact that his own brother George remains impoverished in Kenya. BUT, he really cares about the rest of us!!!!! :rotfl: Rob
 
“One of the best”! How magnanimous of this clown to tell our military families that their “leader” thinks of them so highly! The gravity of Memorial Day, and its ceremonies SHOULD compel a real man to perhaps spend the day talking to families or visiting the wounded. Apparently, there aren’t enough of his voters who care whether the Commander-in-Chief to spend his day in solemnity. 😦 Rob
Absolutely ridiculous. How does golfing after laying the wreath denigrate the military in any way? Did any of our previous Commanders-in-Chief spend Memorial Day in mourning or visiting survivors? Which of his Republican challengers spent the day that way? Most of them spent the day campaigning.
 
Just because someone leans left or is an out and out liberal doesn’t mean that one is pro-abortion. No more than being a rightist means that one is pro-war and anti-poor people. :confused:
Absolutely true. But the left-leaner is presented with the difficulty of not being able to vote for the candidates he otherwise prefers if he’s Catholic and faithful to the teachings of the Church, because virtually all Democrat candidates are pro-abortion, and in supporting them, he’s supporting abortion. I’ll grant that there might be enough truly prolife Democrat officeholders on the national level to take up every last seat in an SUV. But that number wouldn’t give very many liberals a Democrat to vote for.
 
Just because someone leans left or is an out and out liberal doesn’t mean that one is pro-abortion. No more than being a rightist means that one is pro-war and anti-poor people. :confused:
I don’t know any conservatives who are either one. Doesn’t help to be a liberal regardless of what stance you have on abortion. You can’t promote the liberal ideology and not expect abortion, gay marriage, euthanasia to be added to it.

How many pro life, pro traditional marriage liberals have a voice in mainstream media?

How many dare make those views openly known in Hollywood? New York?
 
I didn’t see that written in the US Bishops voting guide. What I did see is that we are called to not be single issue voters. They place very big importance on the abortion issue, but they also listed various issues that were to be considered as well. And while they said that being pro-choice “may disqualify” a vote, they certainly did not forbid it, and therefore they do not make clear in any way that no issue or combination of issues trumps abortion. It does not. Many issues are important and are considered in the overall picture. Now, you are free to vote as you please. I will too. We all vote with our conscience and want to make the world a better place. We all want abortion to be not chosen. But we don’t all go about it the same way. We all want what’s best for our society. We’re not all going to go the same route to make that happen – because there is no single route.
If one believes a Catholic can support a pro-abortion canidate it is eithet because they have not researched the issue or have wllfully decided to ignore Church teaching You are welcome to vote the way you please but please do not try and twist Church teaching to support your disent.
 
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