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bpbasilphx
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I sure wouldn’t be. I attend a Melkite parish.
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CradleCath
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with a more open heart. The words of Pope Pius XII regarding the salvation of those not joined in the Catholic Chruch through no fault of their own are:
THEREFORE, THAT ONE MAY OBTAIN ETERNAL SALVATION, IT IS NOT ALWAYS REQUIRED THAT HE BE INCORPORATED INTO THE CHURCH ACTUALLY AS A MEMBER , but it is necessary that at least he be UNITED TO HER (CHRIST) BY “DESIRE AND LONGING.” .
However, this desire NEED NOT ALWAYS BE EXPLICIT, as it is in catechumens; but when a person is involved in INVINCIBLE IGNORANCE, God accepts also an IMPLICIT DESIRE, so called because it is included in that good disposition of soul WHEREBY A PERSON WISHES THEIR WILL BE CONFORMED TO THE WILL OF GOD. These things are clearly taught in that dogmatic letter which was issued by the Sovereign Pontiff, Pope Pius XII, on June 29, 1948, “On the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ”. For in this letter the Sovereign Pontiff clearly distinguishes between those who are actually incorporated into the Church as members, and those who are united to the Church only by desire.
Discussing the members of which the Mystical Body is composed here on earth, the same August Pontiff says: “Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith, and who have not been so unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body, or been excluded by legitimate authority for grave faults committed”.
Toward the end of this same Encyclical Letter, when most affectionately inviting to unity those who do not belong to the body of the Catholic Church, he mentions those who “are related to the Mystical Body of the Redeemer by a certain unconscious yearning and desire”, and these he by no means excludes from eternal salvation, but on the other hand states that they are in a condition “in which they cannot be sure of their salvation” since “they still remain deprived of those many heavenly gifts and helps which can only be enjoyed in the Catholic Church”.
With these wise words he reproves both those who exclude from eternal salvation all united to the Church only by implicit desire, and those who falsely assert that men can be saved equally well in every religion.
Pius XII does say:
Therefore, no one will be saved who, KNOWING the Church to have been divinely established by Christ, NEVERTHELESS REFUSES to submit to the Church or withholds obedience from the Roman pontiff, the Vicar of Christ on earth.
Peace.This needs & deserves a repost. Shades of Leonard Feeney…the doctrine of “extra ecclesiam nulla salus” was explained correctly, just as you have proclaimed…when I was still in school, 100 yrs. ago.
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Richie_Nelson
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It is a nice way of saying that just because someone follows all the catholic rules to a “t”, doesn’t mean that they aren’t a jerk.Okay, Ritchie would you clarify this for moi? The only thing I can relate it to is that before I married my non-Catholic (horrors) husband of 45 years he wanted to know if Catholics were Christian. There seems to be a mystic around the RCC that confuses Protestants. And some Catholics keep it that way by their holier than thou attitudes. (YES TO ALL WHO ARE KEEPING SCORE, WE WERE MARRIED IN THE ONE AND ONLY ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH BUT WE WEREN’T PERMITTED BEYOND THE ALTAR RAIL AND THE PASTOR REFUSED TO MARRY US. THE ASSISTANT PASTOR WAS THE ONE TO BLESS OUR MARRIAGE. IT SEEMS HIS BLESSING WORKED. )
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Rabbititus
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It probably won’t take fifty years - probably less - I was being conservative in my estimate. The TLM will likely spread rapidly if seminaries are required to teach it in the upcoming years.I agree. I don’t think proponents of one, or the other need become rabid in their opinions. I am just hoping both TLM and NO will be offered in enough parishes everyone can experience both before the next 50 years fly by. Of course it did take almost 40 years for TLM to fall into disuse, so I guess 50 years might be the average before it is accepted again by those who prefer the NO.Peace.
I do think that if Benedict has a long papacy that there is a high possibility of some major changes being made to the NO to bring it more in line with the TLM - which may have the effect of lessening demand for the older mass. I’d predict changes that bring the new mass more in line with the old one textually and rubrically.
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Brennan_Doherty
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Just to clarify…I agree. I don’t think proponents of one, or the other need become rabid in their opinions. I am just hoping both TLM and NO will be offered in enough parishes everyone can experience both before the next 50 years fly by. Of course it did take almost 40 years for TLM to fall into disuse, so I guess 50 years might be the average before it is accepted again by those who prefer the NO.
The TLM did not “fall into disuse” as if people just dropped it or lost interest over the years. It was essentially abrogated and replaced with the New Mass immediately and everywhere.
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elt1956
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SURELY not 100 years ago. Its been only 95 for me.This needs & deserves a repost. Shades of Leonard Feeney…the doctrine of “extra ecclesiam nulla salus” was explained correctly, just as you have proclaimed…when I was still in school, 100 yrs. ago.
Peace.
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elt1956
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Guess I was just thinking of the Latin, the vestments and other rituals that were replace.
Peace.
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elt1956
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Dear Digito. Is there love and considration in bickering and squabbling? I think everyone has a right to express their viewpoint and give the reasons, if they wish, for having that viewpoint, but to continually counter attack another’s position is what Helen Rose calls bickering and squabbling. All you have to do is say what you think without saying why the other opinion is less. After all,in this instance, no one will prove the other right, or wrong, so what is the reason to keep “at it”?.
Peace.
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Jimsdun
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There is so much “illicit abuse” at my parish that I don’t even have to go around looking for it. It’s in my face even if I try to ignore it.
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Freshman88
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That isn’t true.
Catholic-Jerks are not following all the “rules” (Catholicism is not a judicial religion, “teachings” is a better substitute). The Church calls all its members to be compassionate and charitable, if they are acting like a “jerk” chances are that they are not answering this call
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CradleCath
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CradleCath
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You remind me of my son & his family. They still live in the college town where he attended the University.
I can remember how proud I was that each of my four children immediatly sought out the Newman center in each of the Universities that they chose. Then one Thanksgiving break my oldest son, having just left for college a couple of months prior, came home, attended Mass & said to me, “I don’t know how much longer I can go to the Newman center for Mass.”
Freshmen can’t keep a car on campus, so going to the regular parishes wasn’t much of an option. However, my husband & I went to visit the second week of Dec. & I was SHOCKED. The altar was in the round with everyone crowding close to the priest. The pews have no kneelers & the words of the hymn are broadcast on a large overhead screen…much like those used in a large sporting event. And the DANCERS!!! 50 YR. old women running around the “altar” with scarves, acting out the gospel AS IT WAS BEING READ. And, from what I could see this was commonplace. Almost everytime I attended Church on his campus, I saw this junk. Needless to say, he became a dedicated walker & walked to Sacred Heart, a faithful parish in the same city. He could do several miles a day…simply because he couldn’t take the “look at me” Masses. And I promise you, he didn’t go looking for abuses. They abound/abounded in Bishop Gaydos diocese.
(Not surprisingly, sexual abuse of pubescent & post-pubescent boys abounded in this same diocese.)
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pnewton
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What diocese would that be?
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johnnydigit
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to the OP, yes at least one TLM should be required and pushed. even if no one at the parish likes it or wants it, there should be at least one and some effort put into promoting it because our Holy Father has recommended it and so our bishops and priests should support him.
it’s time for authority to take action for our own good, even if we don’t like it.
it’s time for authority to take action for our own good, even if we don’t like it.
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elt1956
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piouswoman;3453966:
however believe that those who, in all innocence, do not know the truth about our Church, yet live their lives according to Christ’s Words & the Truth of God written on every man’s soul, will be deprived of heaven. Neither does the Roman Catholic Church. If they have the DESIRE to worship as God wants them to worship & do not know that they aren’t…He will take them to heaven at the end of their journey on earth.
Ahhhhhhhhhh! Another voice of sanity. This makes three of us who have responded to the question as to whether or not Protestants can reach heaven. in a hopeful way.
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Darnok
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Hello,
I personally voted “no” on this poll. I do support the return of TLM. However, I get concerned when it comes to absolute statements. While I do believe TLM should be considered, it should be directed to parishes where there is a desire for it. I would fail to see the logic in scheduling a Trid. Mass when the parish doesn’t want one.
I personally voted “no” on this poll. I do support the return of TLM. However, I get concerned when it comes to absolute statements. While I do believe TLM should be considered, it should be directed to parishes where there is a desire for it. I would fail to see the logic in scheduling a Trid. Mass when the parish doesn’t want one.
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Phemie
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Sorry, that’s simply wrong. You can’t force a priest to celebrate a form he doesn’t know and is not comfortable with, nor can you force a poor parish to spend large amounts of money to be able to celebrate a form that is not the norm. For those parishes who both have parishioners who want the EF and are able to celebrate it, kudos! Would I like to have it in my parish? You bet! Do I think it would be fair to impose it on my pastor who doesn’t want to celebrate it? NO. Do I think we can afford the vestments and furnishings we’d need to celebrate it? NO.
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piouswoman
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MrS
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Rabbititus
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This might be a silly question, but I’ve seen this reason given a couple times already - are there special furnishings and vestments needed to celebrate the TLM? I know there are a couple of things priests used to wear that were made optional in the NO that would have to be purchased, but not that all of the vestments would have to be different. And aside for six candles, a crucifix, and altar cards, I can’t think of a lot of expensive things one would need to add to a church to celebrate it. I’ve read that the TLM has been celebrated in bombed out churches and on battlefields - so it must not be inherently expensive and stuffy.
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