Who would be happy if every parish had to have a TLM Mass

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piouswoman said:
And by the way, since the topic refers to the Tridentine Latin Mass, why not stay on topic?
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The topic is **not **the TLM. If you actually read the title, it is whether of not making the TLM mandatory in every parish would make anyone happy. I asked how this could possibly make anyone happy unless one was just a control freak and liked to bend others to their will, or they thought the normative Mass to be invalid. The only answer I received was that it was reverent. Good answer, except it is not the only reverent Mass. Even if one has the belief that the normative Mass can not be reverent, then there are still many other options. It is just as logical to make the Antiochan Rite, the Maronite Rite or the Byzantine Rite mandatory for ever parish to give choice in variety. Heck, with the Maronite Rite we can even predate Latin and get back to the Aramaic!!!

No, in none of this am I serious. I just am pointing out there is a reason why local bishops are able to determine such things without an across the board mandate. I do not foresee the Church ever overriding the prudential judgment of bishops and priests who know their congregations far better.
 
elt1956 said:
And then you have the nerve to criticize those you call Modernist Popes and Bishops? Maybe Bishops, but Popes? Just how great do you think you are?
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St Catherine of Siena wasn’t afraid to.

Talk about irony, She was declared a Doctor of the Church by a man she may have had the nerve to slap in the face.

See, that’s the thing that irks me, and I’m not directing this at you elt, but it really gets old seeing traditionalists get flamed for getting emotional while defending traditional catholicism.

Those who don’t have the traditionalist mindset, don’t get it. They simply don’t have a clue what makes a traditionalist tick. And really, a traditionalist can’t fully understand the contemporary mindset.One thing is certain though. The crisis today can’t be blamed on traditional catholicism.
 
I_Believe said:
St Catherine of Siena wasn’t afraid to.
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You state this in response to:
And then you have the nerve to criticize those you call Modernist Popes and Bishops? Maybe Bishops, but Popes? Just how great do you think you are?

So are you suggesting that piouswoman is as great as St. Catherine or that she thinks she is? I do not recall St. Catherine committing slander in her opposition to things the popes did. She was critical of actions, but seemed to have a love for her pope.
 
pnewton said:
You state this in response to:
And then you have the nerve to criticize those you call Modernist Popes and Bishops? Maybe Bishops, but Popes? Just how great do you think you are?

So are you suggesting that piouswoman is as great as St. Catherine or that she thinks she is? I do not recall St. Catherine committing slander in her opposition to things the popes did. She was critical of actions, but seemed to have a love for her pope.
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It is probably best to stay off the subject of whether piouswoman or anyone else is likely to be canonized, and stick with whether or not what they have posted has been true, charitable, and useful. On the latter, we here have at least some little qualification to give feedback. As for the former, it takes one to know one, so that lets most of us off the hook. 😉
 
EasterJoy said:
It is probably best to stay off the subject of whether piouswoman or anyone else is likely to be canonized, and stick with whether or not what they have posted has been true, charitable, and useful. On the latter, we here have at least some little qualification to give feedback. As for the former, it takes one to know one, so that lets most of us off the hook. 😉
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Agreed, and also it’s best to avoid accusing others of having no love for the Pope because they are critical of their public actions.
 
EasterJoy said:
It is probably best to stay off the subject of whether piouswoman or anyone else is likely to be canonized, and stick with whether or not what they have posted has been true, charitable, and useful.
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I did not ask if she was likely to be canonized. I asked “I Believe” what they meant by their response. I did not understand the connection. If you know what "I Believe meant, or have some guess, then I would be interested in knowing. As it is let me say, once again, I did not ask if anybody was likely to be canonized.

I have endeavored to stay on topic here and am sometimes confused by rambling interjections. If Catherine of Siena is related to having the TLM in every parish the connection is beyond me. Have you by any chance scanned most of this thread? If not, perhaps it would be better to wait more than a day and play catch up.
 
pnewton said:
I did not ask if she was likely to be canonized. I asked “I Believe” what they meant by their response. I did not understand the connection. If you know what "I Believe meant, or have some guess, then I would be interested in knowing. As it is let me say, once again, I did not ask if anybody was likely to be canonized.

I have endeavored to stay on topic here and am sometimes confused by rambling interjections. If Catherine of Siena is related to having the TLM in every parish the connection is beyond me. Have you by any chance scanned most of this thread? If not, perhaps it would be better to wait more than a day and play catch up.
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My canonization reference applied to your comment “So are you suggesting that piouswoman is as great as St. Catherine or that she thinks she is?” One doesn’t have to re-read the entire thread to see that the greatness of piouswoman is besides the point.

I am only suggesting that this way of putting your objection could have been dispensed with and without diluting your objections…that is, that a particular criticism of the heirarchy can be examined for its appropiateness without any reference to the person who made the criticism. For instance, you could have merely pointed out that the nature of the criticism piouswoman was raising differed in quality from St. Catherine’s, and left it at that.
 
Thankfully, our cathedral about 2 miles away has a Tridentine Mass at noon on Sundays in a side chapel. I haven’t been yet because my family doesn’t want to go that late (and, frankly, me neither most days). But, they just changed the later NO Mass to 11:30am so maybe I can convince us all to wait 30 mins more and participate in the Tridentine Mass in the chapel. I’ve never been to one and am eager to see what’s it’s like.

trob
 
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elt1956:
Wow, how confusing…that is why so early on, they chose Latin as the ecclesiastical language for the universal church. It proved itself for thousands of years until some modernists had an itching to change it all. And just look at the disastrous results! The church has since lost its identity.

What I am saying and hopefully you can admit this, is that Christ and His disciples certainly didn’t say “Mass” as we call it today, in Latin. Surely they celebrated it in their native tongue. You need to reach a bit out of the box you are in to see beyond your own ideas and dogmatic beliefs. 👍 Peace.

The quote boxes are really mixed up…but to answer your post, no, I don’t need to reach out, and I have no intention of doing so, that is exactly what is wrong with the church today, reaching out to please everyone, every language, every modern idea, every politically correct action. If they would get back to the Catholic Faith, we’d all be better off.
 
elt1956 said:
Dear piouswoman. How did you decide to use piouswoman as a means of identifiction on CAF? It doesn’t seem to fit. From Wikipedia the definition of Piety is.

A common element in most conceptions of piety is HUMILITY.Humility is the defining characteristic of an UNPRETENTIOUS and MODEST person, someone who does not think that he or she is BETTER or more important than others

Because you stir my anger, In My Own Human Frailty I Would also like to add Saint Paul’s Epistle to the Corinthians (l Cor 12:31, 13:1-8a) Strive eagerly for the greatest spiritual gifts. And I shall show you a still more excellent way.
If I speak in human and angelic tongues but do not have love, I am a resounding gong or a clashing cymbal.And if I have the gift of prophecy and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing.If I give away everything I own, and if I hand my body over so that I may boast but do not have love, I gain nothing.Love is patient, love is kind.It is not jealous, love is not pompous, it is not inflated, it is not rude, it does not seek its own interests, it is not quick-tempered, it does not brood over injury, it does not rejoice over wrongdoing but rejoices with the truth.It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
Love never fails.
The Word of the Lord

And then you have the nerve to criticize those you call Modernist Popes and Bishops? Maybe Bishops, but Popes? Just how great do you think you are?
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I am a traditional Roman Catholic. After forty plus years of abuse, confusion, error, blasphemies, sacrilege, watching my church fall apart, watching my family leave the faith, watching my friends live in sin and leave the faith, I think I am entitled to DEFEND my faith. And if you want to come on here and write a sanctimonious letter belittling me, then just go right on ahead. I KNOW THE TRUTHS OF OUR FAITH, AND I WILL DEFEND THEM IN THE FACE OF THOSE WHO WILL TEACH ERROR. It is about saving my soul and those of my family, and if you don’t like it, then that is too bad, I can live with it. If you want to call me by any other name than my chosen screen name, then go right ahead, no one is stopping you.
 
The quote boxes are really mixed up…but to answer your post, no, I don’t need to reach out, and I have no intention of doing so, that is exactly what is wrong with the church today, reaching out to please everyone, every language, every modern idea, every politically correct action. If they would get back to the Catholic Faith, we’d all be better off.
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If we’re going to insist on going back, I wish we’d go back to Greek. Maybe we’d understand the Scriptures, if we had to know the language they were written in. Oh, well. When they put the Mass into a vulgar language the first time, at least the traditionalists saved the Kyrie.

Pentecost says to me that the Holy Spirit does not prefer to work in a single language. On that day Babel was undone, and a better day the Church has not seen since. Let everyone hear the Good News in his or her own language, I say. But if the language that speaks to your heart is Latin, if the Mass that lifts your heart to heaven is the TLM, I hope nothing stands in your way.
 
pnewton said:
You state this in response to:
And then you have the nerve to criticize those you call Modernist Popes and Bishops? Maybe Bishops, but Popes? Just how great do you think you are?

So are you suggesting that piouswoman is as great as St. Catherine or that she thinks she is? I do not recall St. Catherine committing slander in her opposition to things the popes did. She was critical of actions, but seemed to have a love for her pope.
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Just re-read my entire post. If you still don’t understand what I’m getting at, then I’ll sum it up in a sentence or two.
 
pnewton said:
I do not foresee the Church ever overriding the prudential judgment of bishops and priests who know their congregations far better.
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just to knitpick…

*THE CODE OF CANON LAW

*Can. 333 §1 By virtue of his office, the Roman Pontiff not only has power over the universal Church, but also has pre-eminent ordinary power over all particular Churches and their groupings. This reinforces and defends the proper, ordinary and immediate power which the Bishops have in the particular Churches entrusted to their care.

§2 The Roman Pontiff, in fulfilling his office as supreme Pastor of the Church, is always joined in full communion with the other Bishops, and indeed with the whole Church. He has the right, however, to determine, according to the needs of the Church, whether this office is to be exercised in a personal or in a collegial manner.

§3 There is neither appeal nor recourse against a judgement or a decree of the Roman Pontiff.

our current Pope B16 likes Latin for some reason… we should probably like Latin for the same reasons… maybe, quite possibly, he thinks it may make us better Catholics? just offering a crazy notion…
 
johnnydigit said:
…our current Pope B16 likes Latin for some reason… we should probably like Latin for the same reasons… maybe, quite possibly, he thinks it may make us better Catholics? just offering a crazy notion…
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Not crazy, but not necessarily a logical conclusion, either.

Our current pope likes sausage, too. We’re allowed to prefer to eat vegetarian, as long as we are faithful to obtain proper nourishment and do not abuse our bodies with food.

He has seen the good to be accomplished by making the TLM more widely available to those who will be edified by it. It does not follow that he thinks that every Catholic will find it more edifying than the NO, nor that every parish must offer the TLM in order to make it sufficiently available. Knowing him, I kind of think that if he thought that, he would say so.
 
CradleCath said:
So you are happy with the state of the Catholic Church today?
It’s just coming out of (hopefully) a terrible scandal in which priests sexually abused our young people…Bishops were invovled in covering this up.

A large percentage of our laity does not attend mass regularly.

A large percentage of our laity do not believe in the Real Presence.

Our traditional orders of nuns are in dire need of money just to support the few elderly that still belong to the congregation.

In the past 40+ years we’ve seen enrollment in Catholic Schools drop from 4.4 million American children attending Catholic schools to 1.7 million children. This makes you satisfied & happy??

I could go on & on, but I won’t. If you, Eilish Maura are happy with the state of affairs in Catholicism today, then you are probably correct…we have no need of the Latin Mass, as far as YOU are concerned.

Myself, I’m not happy with the Catholic status quo, so I see a need for the TLM & the graces it brings, both to the laity & the priests who celebrate it. What the heck…call me a rebel. :cool:
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Hello Cradle Catholic. I think what I am angriest about is the fact that Bishops and Archbiships etc. who have had the sexual scandals in their dioceses have protected the perpetrators allowing them to continue their atrocities. These men should be walled away, far, far away from parishoners. :mad: Peace.
 
I_Believe said:
but it really gets old seeing traditionalists get flamed for getting emotional while defending traditional catholicism.

Those who don’t have the traditionalist mindset, don’t get it. They simply don’t have a clue what makes a traditionalist tick. And really, a traditionalist can’t fully understand the contemporary mindset.One thing is certain though. The crisis today can’t be blamed on traditional catholicism.
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Thank you for saying that, it is true.
 
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