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piouswoman
Guest
I wasn’t judging, merely wondering why the repeats. And as to the errors that Pope St. Pius X was writing about, well, it says clearly at the top of the page…the errors of MODERNISM.
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piouswoman
Guest
Funny, someone tried to nail me just recently on this or perhaps another thread that “traditionalists” always quote Scripture, and then they went on to say that it was typical of what the Pharisee’s did. LOL…pretty hypocritical I would say.
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pnewton
Guest
There are those who really believe that, yes. As the TLM becomes more available, if it does, realitiy will prove it still to be less desired than the regular Mass. At least that is my prediction. Of course there is no explanation as to the obvious contridiction that the great revival the TLM will bring and the fact is not not preferred by most.
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Silver_Thread
Guest
I’m 65 and I couldn’t have said it better. Thank You!!
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I_Believe
Guest
Well said. Though I put my soul in peril by leaving the Church from about 1972 until a little over a year ago, I can say I’m thankful I didn’t put myself in a position to become jaded by the “user-friendly” catholicism so many blindly defend.
May the Mass once again return to the High Altars that sadly have been deemed " a good place to keep the Tabernacle ", and nothing more.
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I_Believe
Guest
Of course. Those who know nothing of traditional catholicism will not embrace it easily. The average Catholic today can’t handle it. But there will be those who will be changed by the TLM. And they will talk about it, and share their renewed faith with others.
If those who embrace traditional catholicism are to be mocked and dismissed as “a mere minority” for their level of devotion and personal sacrafice required to defend catholicism as it was before the revolutionary changes and heresy crept into todays catechism, so be it.
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pnewton
Guest
That is my very point. Having the TLM more widely available, while needed is not the panacea that some see it as. It is needed for those who find Jesus more worshipped and honored there. It is needed to bring healing to those who feel disenfranchised since it was changed. I think most here who do not attend the TLM realize the value it can bring to unity among Catholics since there are Catholics on both sides of the issues who “can’t handle” the others Mass. I could go along with whatever comes down and believe the average Catholic a little more flexible.
I am not mocking these people as a mere minority, although I have used that term for the SSPX. But the numbers belie the argument that if we switch back to the TLM all things will change.
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elt1956
Guest
Oh for Pete’s sake!!! The following website was given on this forum by YOU. Give me a break!!
This was written by Pope Pius XII and found on the following website. I think he was Pope BEFORE Vatican II wasn’t he? I seem to remember seeing his picture when I was in Grade School.
www.friarsminor.org/boston.html
THEREFORE, THAT ONE MAY OBTAIN ETERNAL SALVATION, IT IS NOT ALWAYS REQUIRED THAT HE BE INCORPORATED INTO THE CHURCH ACTUALLY AS A MEMBER , but it is necessary that at least he be UNITED TO HER (CHRIST) BY “DESIRE AND LONGING.” .
However, this desire NEED NOT ALWAYS BE EXPLICIT, as it is in catechumens; but when a person is involved in INVINCIBLE IGNORANCE, God accepts also an IMPLICIT DESIRE, so called because it is included in that good disposition of soul WHEREBY A PERSON WISHES THEIR WILL BE CONFORMED TO THE WILL OF GOD. These things are clearly taught in that dogmatic letter which was issued by the Sovereign Pontiff, Pope Pius XII, on June 29, 1948, “On the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ”. For in this letter the Sovereign Pontiff clearly distinguishes between those who are actually incorporated into the Church as members, and those who are united to the Church only by desire.
Discussing the members of which the Mystical Body is composed here on earth, the same August Pontiff says: “Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith, and who have not been so unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body, or been excluded by legitimate authority for grave faults committed”.
Toward the end of this same Encyclical Letter, when most affectionately inviting to unity those who do not belong to the body of the Catholic Church, he mentions those who “are related to the Mystical Body of the Redeemer by a certain unconscious yearning and desire”, and these he by no means excludes from eternal salvation, but on the other hand states that they are in a condition “in which they cannot be sure of their salvation” since “they still remain deprived of those many heavenly gifts and helps which can only be enjoyed in the Catholic Church”.
With these wise words he reproves both those who exclude from eternal salvation all united to the Church only by implicit desire, and those who falsely assert that men can be saved equally well in every religion.
Pius XII does say:
Therefore, no one will be saved who, KNOWING the Church to have been divinely established by Christ, NEVERTHELESS REFUSES to submit to the Church or withholds obedience from the Roman pontiff, the Vicar of Christ on earth.
And I will say again, if Pope Pius XII who speaks for Christ didn’t throw them out of Heaven, then neither will I. Judge not that you not be judged. BUT OH MERCY. Was he really talking about folks who are not Catholic??? Was he really talking about my neighbor or relative who is not Catholic, but could have as much faith in Christ as you do? OH FOR SHAME!!!, Will the horrors never end???,:ehh:
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elt1956
Guest
I do agree whole heartedly that it is going to take more than the return of TLM to change the attitudes of both “Modernists” as they are called by the Traditionalists and “Traditionalists”.as they call themselves.
Divisiveness rather than cohesion among members of the Body of Christ seems to be the result of hard headedness on both sides. It is a war within the church brought on by proponents of each. Both sides are right according to staunch supporters of both the NO and TLM. There is no understanding of the other given. No acceptance of opinion. Both sides think they are favored of God and both sides want to “win”. To what point? A division within in the church? Is this what everyone wants, just so they can say they are RIGHT? The only way for the Church to win is “not to play the game”. Peace.
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elt1956
Guest
Well, I forgive you anyway. I need the practice. Pope St. Pius X wrote this in 1907. That leaves a lot of latitude for MODERNISM between then and now. So what specifically was he talking about?
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elt1956
Guest
HYPOCRITICAL??? No way, not me!!!
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elt1956
Guest
The Church has always been in Schism with some form of religion or another, at least according to the view from the other side of the Tiber, but this time, if it exists, it is from within, caused by those whose pride cause them to believe they can make decisions for the Pope. Unbelievable!!!
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elt1956
Guest
The Muslims are outstripping EVERY religion. Does that mean everyone is losing faith? BUT as you can see from reading the newspapers, there are also divisions among the Muslims as the difference in beliefs between the shiites and sunnis. Sound familiar? How about Modernists and Traditionalists?
Peace.
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elt1956
Guest
What was the problem in exonerating the Jewish people? Oh yes, I remember now, the WHOLE Jewish population of Palestine shouted “Crucify Him”. Also PLEASE give me an example of Gnosticism that is stated in the NEW MODERN CCC. I haven’t read the whole book YET. What is YOUR definition of true as opposed to “false” ecumenism. Internationalism???
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Cat
Guest
When you talk about “hard-heartedeness,” you’re talking about your Church!
As far as I know, the Catholic Church still considers the NO Mass the Ordinary Form, and fully supports it and encourages its use.
As for those who believe that a TLM will bring about spiritual revival–we’ve had TLM in our city since the mid 1980s–a daily TLM and at least three TLMs on Saturday and Sunday. A respectable group of Catholics attend, but it is hardly the spiritual “sun” of our city.
There are TLMs all over our diocese. (Our bishops, including our current bishop, have implemented TLMs since the mid-1980s.)
Certainly Catholics attend, and I’m glad they have the opportunity.
But these Masses have not brought about any kind of spiritual revival among Catholics and Protestants. Perhaps in the lives of the individuals who are attending, there is revival and joy, but it hasn’t spread and caused non-Christians to “call upon the Name of the Lord.”
I consider our city and our diocese a “laboratory” of sorts to study the effects of TLMs. It really doesn’t seem to be doing all the great things that many of you predict will happen. Do any of you have an explanation as to why the TLM doesn’t seem to be having any momentous effects in our city?
I do realize that there could be things happening in the spiritual realm that I can’t see. I am a firm believer in the power of prayer, and I personally think that the presence of the contemplative Order in our city is keeping our city going. Perhaps the TLMs are having the same effect. Perhaps if we didn’t have them, things would be unbearable here.
And I will say this–in our diocese, there has been only one incident of a pedophile priest, and this happened back in the 1970s, and there has not been any court ruling that I know of. (I think the incident is only in the accusation phase.) But the 1970s were well before the TLM was established. So perhaps we might infer that the TLM is keeping our priests sexually pure?
But I’ll be honest, folks, I don’t believe that the TLMs are the answer–I believe that committed, humble Christians who yield themselves to God daily are the answer. And I believe these Christians can be found at the NOs as well as the TLMs, and–shockingly–I believe that these Christians can be found in Protestant communities, too. (The Catholic Catechism will back me up in this shocking opinion.)
As far as I know, the Catholic Church still considers the NO Mass the Ordinary Form, and fully supports it and encourages its use.
As for those who believe that a TLM will bring about spiritual revival–we’ve had TLM in our city since the mid 1980s–a daily TLM and at least three TLMs on Saturday and Sunday. A respectable group of Catholics attend, but it is hardly the spiritual “sun” of our city.
There are TLMs all over our diocese. (Our bishops, including our current bishop, have implemented TLMs since the mid-1980s.)
Certainly Catholics attend, and I’m glad they have the opportunity.
But these Masses have not brought about any kind of spiritual revival among Catholics and Protestants. Perhaps in the lives of the individuals who are attending, there is revival and joy, but it hasn’t spread and caused non-Christians to “call upon the Name of the Lord.”
I consider our city and our diocese a “laboratory” of sorts to study the effects of TLMs. It really doesn’t seem to be doing all the great things that many of you predict will happen. Do any of you have an explanation as to why the TLM doesn’t seem to be having any momentous effects in our city?
I do realize that there could be things happening in the spiritual realm that I can’t see. I am a firm believer in the power of prayer, and I personally think that the presence of the contemplative Order in our city is keeping our city going. Perhaps the TLMs are having the same effect. Perhaps if we didn’t have them, things would be unbearable here.
And I will say this–in our diocese, there has been only one incident of a pedophile priest, and this happened back in the 1970s, and there has not been any court ruling that I know of. (I think the incident is only in the accusation phase.) But the 1970s were well before the TLM was established. So perhaps we might infer that the TLM is keeping our priests sexually pure?
But I’ll be honest, folks, I don’t believe that the TLMs are the answer–I believe that committed, humble Christians who yield themselves to God daily are the answer. And I believe these Christians can be found at the NOs as well as the TLMs, and–shockingly–I believe that these Christians can be found in Protestant communities, too. (The Catholic Catechism will back me up in this shocking opinion.)
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pnewton
Guest
FYI - In another thread I read where a poster, HOPEFUL in the UK, attends the TLM in Glasglow. She stated there where 25 people there. Not to place too much emphasis on anecdotal evidence, let me just encourage to watch where the TLM is instituted in some of these areas and see if they become the majority, or even a substantial minority.
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laudamus_te
Guest
I hope you are not saying that the Christians in the Protestant communities will be saved in their religions. That is an heretical belief. Only if they have NO KNOWLEDGE of the Truth of the Catholic Faith can we believe they have a chance.
I wouldn’t say, either, that the TLM is the answer per se, but it is the first step towards a return to a better understanding among Catholics of what is the Truth. The TLM is the cornerstone of our Faith. It is the most perfect sacrifice which we can offer to God. It was the perfect sacrifice for 1600+ years, the canon of the Mass virtually unchanged during that time. It is pleasing to God. The NO is a banal, on-the-spot fabrication (to quote our Pope). Graces flow from the TLM which do not flow from the NO, and the proof is the decimation of our Church since VII. Watch the transformation, it will take place. Slowly, but it will take place.
J
Joannm
Guest
Are you privy to the Lord that you know how and when He distributes His graces?
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I_Believe
Guest
Well, you are focusing on the TLM. I’m talking about traditional catholicism versus all this Thomas Merton type stuff. A priest can teach traditional catholicism from the pulpit of his NO parish. But how many do ?
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laudamus_te
Guest
No, but I have eyes in my head. As I said, the evidence is there for all to see. The NO has not borne good fruit.
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