Who would be happy if every parish had to have a TLM Mass

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laudamus_te said:
And again, I would be greatly consoled to believe that consecration was not valid, after seeing the wine being toted from EEM to EEM in a kool-aid pitcher, to refill glasses. A blatant liturgical abuse, by the way.
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A horrific video of a Catholic NOVUS ORDO Mass.

Nope, nothing wrong here folks, nothing to see here, no abuses, move right along…
 
piouswoman said:
A horrific video of a Catholic NOVUS ORDO Mass.

Nope, nothing wrong here folks, nothing to see here, no abuses, move right along…
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I would probably have pooped my pants, had I been there just to see the blasphemy. :mad:
 
piouswoman said:
A horrific video of a Catholic NOVUS ORDO Mass.

Nope, nothing wrong here folks, nothing to see here, no abuses, move right along…
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Yep, I’ll just be happy with by “reverent NO” and bury my head in the sand!

The fact that one single instance of abuse takes place somewhere should have every true Catholic on his knees saying prayers of reparation to console our Lord’s Sacred Heart and Our Lady’s Immaculate Heart, and then speaking out in order to prevent it from happening anywhere.
 
laudamus_te said:
And again, I would be greatly consoled to believe that consecration was not valid, after seeing the wine being toted from EEM to EEM in a kool-aid pitcher, to refill glasses. A blatant liturgical abuse, by the way.
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For sure. And invalid or illicit, the use of glass chalices has been strictly forbidden.
 
Cat said:
Are you being sarcastic? I don’t understand what you are saying to me. I don’t understand the question marks and the rolleyes.

Do you disagree with my assessment of TLM? Then please come right out and say it honestly, without sarcasm or cartoons, and explain why you think I am incorrect. Thank you.

And please forgive me for not having a modern mindset when it comes to comedy. I seem to have a mental block when it comes to determining whether someone is being sarcastic, and if so, why. I need honest conversation, not clever banter. I wish I were cooler. But I’m not.
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Ok, let’s try this. You likened the vestments of a priest praying the TLM to costumes. How would you describe the vestments of an NO priest ?

You say the “music” of the TLM is rehearsed. Would it be safe to assume you view contemporary “music” in the NO as improvised ?

You say the TLM is choreographed. Versus the NO, which is… what ? How do they do it ? What is the term you would use to describe the rubrics of the NO ?

Answer if you like, or not. If you want honesty, I’ll say it honestly. You don’t have any idea why a traditionalist defends the TLM. You are telling us you prefer the look of the NO versus the look of the TLM. You lead me to believe you may think the TLM is overkill. Too fancy.

Everything you have described about it is the least of the concerns of the traditionalist. Try comparing the prayers of the TLM versus the NO’s prayers. Look at the prayers of the priest and the servers that are said before the TLM even begins. Compare these to how the priest begins the NO.

If you can truly see the difference, then you can begin to understand what all the fuss is about. And of course, then you will be able to determine if it even is worth fussing about.

Yes, I’ve been sarcastic and uncharitible. Please accept my apology.

I’m still learning the faith I walked away from as a teen. I’m trying the best I can to accept both the NO and the TLM. Today, I went to an NO at my home parish and heard a wonderful homily. But before the Nicene Creed, we had a surprise. Out of the blue came the Ave Maria. I prayed along of course, and frankly, I thought it was a nice touch. But it’s not in the Missal. I don’t think it’s in the GIRM as an option.

I didn’t go prepared to look for liturgical abuse, and I don’t see the Ave Maria as one. But my point is, with the NO, there is too much wiggle room. These surprises are distracting, even if but for a moment. The TLM doesn’t enable these distractions.

I’m rambling now, so I’ll hand over the soapbox…
 
piouswoman said:
What’s your point? If one truly* loves,* then they will tell the*** truth***, it may not be popular, but it is TRUTH.

You can find a scriptural quote to give a great impression for just about anything…but to stand and defend** truth **is the more important endeavor.
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The truth? Here is more truth.
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It is not jealous, (love) is not pompous, it is not inflated,
5 it is not rude, it does not seek its own interests, it is not quick-tempered, it does not brood over injury, 6 it does not rejoice over wrongdoing but rejoices with the truth. 7 It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
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It is why Paul advises us:
Col. 4:6 Let your speech be alway with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man.
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It is the very marriage between Truth and Love and should cause us to question the truth when someone’s anger is all we see. LIkewise, when any poster here uses tactics that lack integrity. Any violation of Truth or Charity is a departure from where God wants us.

No, my head is not in the sand as has often been said. I know some crazy stuff has happened and still happens today by those defiant to the Church. But I also do not blame the Church, but rather those who defy it. Mahoney, for example, is not my problem to address, except through prayer. He belongs to God and the Holy Father.
 
I_Believe said:
Ok, let’s try this. You likened the vestments of a priest praying the TLM to costumes. How would you describe the vestments of an NO priest ?

You say the “music” of the TLM is rehearsed. Would it be safe to assume you view contemporary “music” in the NO as improvised ?

You say the TLM is choreographed. Versus the NO, which is… what ? How do they do it ? What is the term you would use to describe the rubrics of the NO ?

Answer if you like, or not. If you want honesty, I’ll say it honestly. You don’t have any idea why a traditionalist defends the TLM. You are telling us you prefer the look of the NO versus the look of the TLM. You lead me to believe you may think the TLM is overkill. Too fancy.

**Everything you have described about it is the least of the concerns of the traditionalist. Try comparing the prayers of the TLM versus the NO’s prayers. Look at the prayers of the priest and the servers that are said before the TLM even begins. Compare these to how the priest begins the NO.

If you can truly see the difference, then you can begin to understand what all the fuss is about. And of course, then you will be able to determine if it even is worth fussing about.**

Yes, I’ve been sarcastic and uncharitible. Please accept my apology.

I’m still learning the faith I walked away from as a teen. I’m trying the best I can to accept both the NO and the TLM. Today, I went to an NO at my home parish and heard a wonderful homily. But before the Nicene Creed, we had a surprise. Out of the blue came the Ave Maria. I prayed along of course, and frankly, I thought it was a nice touch. But it’s not in the Missal. I don’t think it’s in the GIRM as an option.

I didn’t go prepared to look for liturgical abuse, and I don’t see the Ave Maria as one. But my point is, with the NO, there is too much wiggle room. These surprises are distracting, even if but for a moment. The TLM doesn’t enable these distractions.

I’m rambling now, so I’ll hand over the soapbox…
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Very nice post, and you have cut right to the heart of the matter in the bolded portion above. Thank you.
 
pnewton said:
The truth? Here is more truth.

It is why Paul advises us:
It is the very marriage between Truth and Love and should cause us to question the truth when someone’s anger is all we see. LIkewise, when any poster here uses tactics that lack integrity. Any violation of Truth or Charity is a departure from where God wants us.

No, my head is not in the sand as has often been said. I know some crazy stuff has happened and still happens today by those defiant to the Church. But I also do not blame the Church, but rather those who defy it. Mahoney, for example, is not my problem to address, except through prayer. He belongs to God and the Holy Father.
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With respect, all of this talk of LOVE reminds me a bit too much of the era I grew up in…the hippie era…you know, “make love not war”…and here’s another corker…“war is not good for children and other living things” Now, love is a good thing, but when the modernists take it and run with it, it becomes not only monotonous but very trying on the nerves. It is today used as an excuse to avoid saying the TRUTH, because the TRUTH may not be pleasant to hear, it may not be politically correct. Remember, that it is through *true charity * that one is willing to take an unpopular position to speak the truth, regardless of the consequences.

Since we are quoting scripture…how about this one?

“Do not think that I came to send peace upon earth: I came not to send peace, but the sword.”

Our Lord spoke these words, do you question His love?
 
piouswoman said:
“Do not think that I came to send peace upon earth: I came not to send peace, but the sword.”

Our Lord spoke these words, do you question His love?
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Jesus was speaking of the kingdom of heaven. Do you believe the frequency of offering the TLM is worth setting a man against his father, a daughter againtst her mother. Do you equate the TLM being offered in every parish with whether we love Christ first above all things? That is the context of your quote.
 
pnewton said:
Jesus was speaking of the kingdom of heaven. Do you believe the frequency of offering the TLM is worth setting a man against his father, a daughter againtst her mother. Do you equate the TLM being offered in every parish with whether we love Christ first above all things? That is the context of your quote.
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It isn’t about the frequency of the TLM, it is about upholding the doctrines of our faith. The truths of our faith are preserved in the TLM as a consequence of its perfection. And yes, if holding the truths of our faith mean setting a man against his father and a daughter against her mother, then that is what it takes. Amen.
 
There is simply no backing down from the truth. There is simply no compromising of the truth.
 
I_Believe said:
Well then, volunteer to be a moderator. Then you can lock every thread when the trads start winning the argument.
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I didn’t try to moderate and its not only traditional catholics here that get too wrapped up into “winning.” However, if one is to go off on a different subject it is confusing if the new topic is not well defined. By the way, I do not mind pointing out that we should all have the integrity to follow the rules we agree to by coming here.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=116150
Do not use abbreviated terms such as “Prots” or “radtrad” etc. that may be offensive to the group to which they refer. Full names are best.
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Brother_John said:
. . . we should go back to Latin. . .
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Latin was never thrown out. In fact, I believe that the such widespread use of vernacular in the N.O. is an abuse of the spirit of Vatican II. (I post this as a person who prefers the N.O. Mass). The documents that came out of Vatican II all state that Latin is the preferred language of the Liturgy. If there is any question, we should look to what the Vatican does and, in fact, Masses (N.O.) at the Vatican are said in Latin.

I think it is very important that we don’t equate TLM with Latin because Latin is the proper language of the Novus Order Mass also.
 
I chose “yes” in the poll. I’d like to see parishes have both the NO and TLM masses. If parishes have many masses on a weekend, then it would be nice to have at least one of the masses as a TLM. If there aren’t many masses on a weekend (like only one or two), then it would be good to designate one or two Sundays a month with a TLM. We do not have a TLM at my parish yet, but we currently have a Latin NO which is done every other week at the high mass.
 
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