Who would be happy if every parish had to have a TLM Mass

[piouswoman]

there you go throwing facts around again

:getholy:

 

[I_Believe]

By the way, I do not mind pointing out that we should all have the integrity to follow the rules we agree to by coming here.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=116150

lol, I thought of that before I posted. I think that applies when using the abbreviation as an insult. For example, if I were a liberal, I might say, “don’t bore me with your trad blab”.

But anyhow, I’ll humor you. Review my post in question. It has been edited for clarity

 

[laudamus_te]

Well then, volunteer to be a moderator. Then you can lock every thread when the truth is revealed.

Yes, that’s even better!

 

[holdencaulfield]

What are we arguing about again? I forgot.

 

[piouswoman]

What are we arguing about again? I forgot.

I think it started with this pnewton chestnut:

Originally Posted by pnewton View Post
Jesus was speaking of the kingdom of heaven. Do you believe the frequency of offering the TLM is worth setting a man against his father, a daughter againtst her mother. Do you equate the TLM being offered in every parish with whether we love Christ first above all things? That is the context of your quote.

 

[holdencaulfield]

I think it started with this pnewton chestnut:

Originally Posted by pnewton View Post
Jesus was speaking of the kingdom of heaven. Do you believe the frequency of offering the TLM is worth setting a man against his father, a daughter againtst her mother. Do you equate the TLM being offered in every parish with whether we love Christ first above all things? That is the context of your quote.

I’m really sick of all the people here who trash the TLM. If one prefers NO, that’s fine, however it must be done properly. Other Rites such as the Byzantine Rite are great as well. However here is what made me become a Traditional Catholic. Realizing that the Second Vatican Council didn’t change anything in the way of faith. Realizing that the First Vatican Council stated that although Popes can teach Infallibly, they are fallible if anything they teach contradicts Tradition. The main point however is that when you are in presence to Christ truly and physically in the same room as you, you should treat Him with respect and reverent worship.

 

[pnewton]

I think it started with this pnewton chestnut:

Logically, if I was giving the context of your quote, I would have had to have your quote first.

BTW, here is the whole passage

Matthew 10:32-39

Everyone who acknowledges me before others I will acknowledge before my heavenly Father. But whoever denies me before others, I will deny before my heavenly Father. "Do not think that I have come to bring peace upon the earth. I have come to bring not peace but the sword. For I have come to set a man ‘against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and one’s enemies will be those of his household.’ "Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and whoever does not take up his cross and follow after me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.

 

[pnewton]

I’m really sick of all the people here who trash the TLM.

I do not know to whom you refer, but I have never made even the slightest disparaging comment about the TLM. I have seen only the slightest criticisms here at CAF by anyone. The reverse is not true for the ordinary form of the Mass which is frequently lampooned. I truly wish all that desire this form of worship could have it made available for you. I have always respected the right of those who find greater connection with Christ in the TLM to have that experience available. The only thing I do not see is that it is necessary for every parish, regardless of size or proximity to other parishes, to have a TLM weekly as a requirement from Rome.

 

[Marvin_Schmidt]

I think the reason many Priests and Parishoners don’t like TLM is because it dones not allow for “creativity” of expression. You know, no guitars, drums, etc. AND you have to follow the rules. I converted in 1963, and had the privelege of learning what was then TLM. At least when I moved from LA to Tucson to France to Germany the Mass was essentially the same. Now, if I visit one of the beautiful Parishes in Pasadena, or Burbank, I sometimes hardly recognise the Mass. That may be an exageration, but not by much.

There ARE rubricks for the NO Mass, but there is also too much freedom to do as the preist wishes, even adding to or changing the language of the Mass.

To be sure, I would rather attend a well said and proper NO than a poorly said TLM, but would would rather attend a well said TLM. I watched the Mass on EWTN on September 14, 2007 and realized how much I missed that. I like our ritual, but then I’m an “old guy”

Marv Schmidt

 

[MrS]

I think the reason many Priests and Parishoners don’t like TLM is because it dones not allow for “creativity” of expression. You know, no guitars, drums, etc. AND you have to follow the rules. I converted in 1963, and had the privelege of learning what was then TLM. At least when I moved from LA to Tucson to France to Germany the Mass was essentially the same. Now, if I visit one of the beautiful Parishes in Pasadena, or Burbank, I sometimes hardly recognise the Mass. That may be an exageration, but not by much.

There ARE rubricks for the NO Mass, but there is also too much freedom to do as the preist wishes, even adding to or changing the language of the Mass.

To be sure, I would rather attend a well said and proper NO than a poorly said TLM, but would would rather attend a well said TLM. I watched the Mass on EWTN on September 14, 2007 and realized how much I missed that. I like our ritual, but then I’m an “old guy”

Marv Schmidt

Welcome “old guy” to the CAF, where life if fun, and the livin’ is easy. Yeah, right.

You are right on with the creativity insight. I was unable to attend my home parish this weekend (a reverent NO Mass with a great pastor who is slowly refining the “errors” that have crept into the parish over the years).

So I had to settle for a late-in-the-day option at another, very large, parish… and tolerate the creativity. Not fun.

another “old guy”

.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

I certainly would. I think it should be changed.

Be careful what you wish for. If fewer people show up for the TLM than the other masses, how would that look?

 

[wraithx]

Vatican II doesn’t mandate a Mass fully in the vernacular. I think rather than debating this issue, people should get used to the fact that whether your parish says the new Mass or the traditional Mass, within 10 years they will ALL be in Latin as Vatican II demands - it is certain that Pope Benedict is pushing things in that direction. Deo gratias!

 

[Sure]

But that is exactly what has happened. The vernacular use has led to many changes in wording, personal interpretation by priests, and use of novelty in the Holy Mass. The loss of tradition has caused many of the younger generations of Catholics to really not understand their faith.

You are using the “guns kill people” argument. It doesn’t work. The reason that there are many “changes in wording, personal interpretation by priests, and use of novelty in the Holy Mass” is because priests, either through ignorance or ill intent, commit these abuses. It’s not like the priest is saying Mass and just thinks, “Oh my gosh, I can’t help it. Must…change…the…words. Aaaauuuugh.”

Take any really good priest that you know. Ask him to say the ordinary form of the Mass. Is he going to start ad-libbing and changing prayers? No. Will he be tempted to change things? No.

 

[pnewton]

Vatican II doesn’t mandate a Mass fully in the vernacular. I think rather than debating this issue, people should get used to the fact that whether your parish says the new Mass or the traditional Mass, within 10 years they will ALL be in Latin as Vatican II demands - it is certain that Pope Benedict is pushing things in that direction. Deo gratias!

Interesting theory. We are coming up on three years so far. I see nothing to support this idea. Maybe CAF will be around in a few more years to see how this turns out.

 

[Digitonomy]

within 10 years they will ALL be in Latin as Vatican II demands - it is certain that Pope Benedict is pushing things in that direction.

That is not the message I got from Benedict’s letter that accompanied Summorum Pontificum:
Benedict XVI:

it is clearly seen that the new Missal will certainly remain the ordinary Form of the Roman Rite, not only on account of the juridical norms, but also because of the actual situation of the communities of the faithful

 

[PreVatIISenior]

I chose “yes” in the poll. I’d like to see parishes have both the NO and TLM masses. If parishes have many masses on a weekend, then it would be nice to have at least one of the masses as a TLM. If there aren’t many masses on a weekend (like only one or two), then it would be good to designate one or two Sundays a month with a TLM. We do not have a TLM at my parish yet, but we currently have a Latin NO which is done every other week at the high mass.​

Now you have me bamboozled!
What exactly are the differences between Latin NO and Latin TLM?

 

[PreVatIISenior]

Look at the prayers of the priest and the servers that are said before the TLM even begins. Compare these to how the priest begins the NO.​

I admit, while being a lover of the NO, that if I could make a change to it, it would be to have the Penitential Rite restored to being proclaimed while standing at the foot of the altar (albeit in English) with priest and people, perhaps together, confessing their sinfulness using the old format. It could be beneficial, it seems to me, that everyone could bow low during its recitation, thus each of us expressing in our own bodies the repentence that we are expressing in our prayer.​

 

[PreVatIISenior]

There is not one error to be found in the pre VII Mass. There is no error in Catholicism before VII.

---

There is also not one error to be found in the post VII Mass. There is no error in Catholicism after VII.

---

If you rebel at my second statement, then you should also rebel at the first.

 

[piouswoman]

There is not one error to be found in the pre VII Mass. There is no error in Catholicism before VII.

---

There is also not one error to be found in the post VII Mass. There is no error in Catholicism after VII.

---

If you rebel at my second statement, then you should also rebel at the first.

The first part of your second statement is arguable, the second part is false.
Your third statement makes no sense.
lumengentleman.com/content.asp?id=15
The above link provides a brief overview and comparison of the two rites.

 

[Jimsdun]

This is such a balanced post. Thank you so much.

My proposal would be that TLMs should be offered throughout each diocese, perhaps every 25-30 miles, or perhaps for every 100,000 people.

I think it’s not practical to have a TLM required at every parish. Our parish has six Sunday Masses and two Saturday Vigil Masses. These Masses are pretty much packed. I think there is some kind of “rule” about priests offering more than three Masses in a day (perhaps there are dispensations to allow for this when necessary). But I think it would be tough on the priests and the organist to offer yet another Mass, and one that requires a lot of rehearsal (a TLM), especially when the TLM is offered only two miles away from our church (actually two TLMs on Sunday). People in our city who want TLM can become part of that community (it’s not technically a “parish,” since it is offered at an oratory).

I also think that in the rural areas, it’s not practical to see each parish offer a TLM. Many times, priests are serving at multiple rural parishes, and they drive from church to church on Sunday just to offer one Mass at each. Exhausting.

But usually there are fairly large towns or even small cities about every 30 miles or so (except in the extremely rural areas of the U.S.). I think it’s reasonable that there should be at least one weekly TLM somewhere in these cities. A 30-mile drive is no picnic, especially with small children or for the elderly. And in this day of conserving gas, many may even say it’s a sin. (I don’t agree.)

But I know that many people are willing to drive long distances to worship freely. (I know a lot of Protestants who drive further than 30 miles to worship at certain churches.)

Does this sound like a reasonable and workable idea?

Hopefully as more priests with the proper training are ordained, we will actually see something like this happen in the U.S.

I honestly don’t think you will ever see the end of the vernacular Mass. The Church has matured, and this is part of that maturity–offering Holy Mass in the language that people understand without having to refer to a missal.

I do think you will see less abuses and more careful attention to following the rubrics. I also think you will see even more “music of the culture.” JMO, of course.

But I trust that our Holy Father and Magisterium will be in control, and that, as Jesus promised, nothing will prevail aganist the Catholic Church. He will present His Bride spotless before the throne.

Thank you. Very good post.
The question was “Who would be happy if each parish had a TLM?” Not that we could expect every parish to have one. It would be a nice luxury, but unrealistic to expect or demand it. Especially when there are so few priest that know Latin anymore… There is only one parish in my diocese that offers an authorized TLM