Who would be happy if every parish had to have a TLM Mass

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Brian777 said:
The priest does not have his back to us!!!

He is facing God Almighty!!!1

that is what ad orientem, or, more accurately, versus deum is all about.

think about a congressman, or a lobbyist, or a petitioner, going forth to the government, he always faces thoes whom he is addressing for the benefit of his constituents.

Raymond Arroyo from EWTN, intervied cardinal Ratzinger once, and The good Cardinal said he would like to see a mass return to versus deum. theres your reference.

God Bless
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Ad Orientem has nothing to do with “facing God” but with facing East which traditionally the direction from where the Lord will return. God is everywhere, so no matter where you are facing you are facing God. Also we are not facing Jesus in the tabernacle because the focus of the Mass is not the tabernacle but the sacrifice on the altar.

For me, I would not mind ad orientem, in fact the way our church is situated I usually sit on the side of the church where the priest is facing the other direction. But I also prefer the venacular because I love to pray the words of the Mass in a language I understand.
 
Joannm said:
Ad Orientem has nothing to do with “facing God” but with facing East which traditionally the direction from where the Lord will return. God is everywhere, so no matter where you are facing you are facing God. Also we are not facing Jesus in the tabernacle because the focus of the Mass is not the tabernacle but the sacrifice on the altar.

For me, I would not mind ad orientem, in fact the way our church is situated I usually sit on the side of the church where the priest is facing the other direction. But I also prefer the venacular because I love to pray the words of the Mass in a language I understand.
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you can have a vernacular ad orientem. and yes, ad orientem, more accurately VERSUS DEUM, has everything to do with facing God, in the TAbernacle. see that is what High Altars are all about. the Tabernacle and the Altar are all one. Plus facing “litugical east” helps us remember the idea that the priest is our judge, and our intercessor, and our mediator in God’s eyes. Only through the Catholic Priesthood and the actions of its members can we be saved. Again the idea is that when a group of people go before the government, they face the representatives, not each other with their backs to the ones they are really talkin to? besides, are the people in the pews more important than God that he should see the priest’s back while we get an engaging view, are we God?
 
Brian777 said:
you can have a vernacular ad orientem. and yes, ad orientem, more accurately VERSUS DEUM, has everything to do with facing God, in the TAbernacle. see that is what High Altars are all about. the Tabernacle and the Altar are all one. Plus facing “litugical east” helps us remember the idea that the priest is our judge, and our intercessor, and our mediator in God’s eyes. Only through the Catholic Priesthood and the actions of its members can we be saved. Again the idea is that when a group of people go before the government, they face the representatives, not each other with their backs to the ones they are really talkin to? besides, are the people in the pews more important than God that he should see the priest’s back while we get an engaging view, are we God?
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OK, but you can turn it around and say that the priest acts in personi Christi. Might not Christ want to look you in the eye when bidding you to confess your sins, lift up your hearts, and so on? Shall we imagine that we sit in a court in which the judge turns his back on us?

As for East, did Jesus not say that we will not worship in a particular place, but in spirit and in truth? It is only in spirit that we turn our backs on God, not in physical body. “As often as you did it to the least of these, you did it to Me.” Jesus did not advocate turning our backs on each other in order to turn toward Him, but rather that we would serve Him best by seeing Him in those we regarded as the least. Those who would be great should be the servants of all others. When He talked to His priests about their authority and the place they would take, He turned it upside down from the way secular society saw it.

In the NO, the focus of everything is the Sacrifice at the altar. All eyes focus, not only in one direction, as if to possibly face something far away, but in one spot. One spot, where Eternity becomes present, where there is at once the entirety of the Pascal Mystery. All eyes on Christ, in the person of the priest.

I’m not trying to make myself right and you wrong. I’m saying that the two Masses can bring us to the same reality in different ways.
 
Brian777 said:
you can have a vernacular ad orientem. and yes, ad orientem, more accurately VERSUS DEUM, has everything to do with facing God, in the TAbernacle. see that is what High Altars are all about. the Tabernacle and the Altar are all one. Plus facing “litugical east” helps us remember the idea that the priest is our judge, and our intercessor, and our mediator in God’s eyes. Only through the Catholic Priesthood and the actions of its members can we be saved. Again the idea is that when a group of people go before the government, they face the representatives, not each other with their backs to the ones they are really talkin to? besides, are the people in the pews more important than God that he should see the priest’s back while we get an engaging view, are we God?
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The tabernacle on the altar is a relatively “new” invention. Up until around the 16th century it was usually not part of the high altar. The Baroque period brought with it a emphasis on the tabernacle with them becoming very ornate and the focal point of the church. So the custom of facing east had nothing to do with the tabernacle. In most cathedrals in Europe the tabernacle was never on the high altar but in a seperate chapel, as it is in St. Peter’s, where, by the way, facing East means facing the people.
 
Does ANYBODY actually believe that just because we “face” the priest or have the priest’s “Back” to us is really going to keep one from going to heaven by “Not doing it right”. What really is RIGHT is your humble heart and love of God. Way too much attention is placed on “doing the mass right”. All our focus is and should be on God. If we have to face the priest"s face or his back should not really be of such importance. What happens to a blind person when he can’t see which way the priest is facing. Is he going straight to hell because he is in a mass where the “priest is facing the wrong way?” Are we to be his judge? So if we go completely by what the traditionlist say, we NO must all be going to hell. Isn’t that putting you all in the position to be judge and jury.
“Judge not, lest ye shall be judged” Let’s quit all this “My way is right and YOUR way in wrong” Let’s get back to the basics of just honoring God in whichever mode your parish is in. I really don’t think we are honoring God by all this complaining and judging. Are we? Just by being in this thread, I have noticed, myself, that I
have been guilty of “forgetting” to honor God but “remembering” to argue about which way is right. I will be leaving this thread. It is not healthy to my love of God. May God lead all of you to do the same.
 
Joannm said:
The tabernacle on the altar is a relatively “new” invention. Up until around the 16th century it was usually not part of the high altar. The Baroque period brought with it a emphasis on the tabernacle with them becoming very ornate and the focal point of the church. So the custom of facing east had nothing to do with the tabernacle. In most cathedrals in Europe the tabernacle was never on the high altar but in a seperate chapel, as it is in St. Peter’s, where, by the way, facing East means facing the people.
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I know and that really intrigued me that the pre-conciliar Mass was infact said facing the people, BUT, if you look at a few of the pictures of Papal Masses, there is usually a huge set of candles, and a huge crucifix in betwen Pope and congregation, this actually allows almost no visual of the sacrifice atall, something i find much worse then simply seeing the back of the priest.

also, at mass we are there to worship God, serving others is important, but Mass is about us serving God, therefore everyone should be focused in one direction.

You know we could argue this forever, but the fact is, that the Pope has expresses his own interest in seeing a return, so if he implements it, who are you to say No? And if he finally says that he wont imlement this change, then who am I to say he should?
 
Brian777 said:
The priest does not have his back to us!!!

He is facing God Almighty!!!1

God Bless
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So, you KNOW exactly where God Almighty is, so that he can be properly “faced” ?

Is the Mass offered to God, or is it offered for the people?
 
agr4028 said:
So, you KNOW exactly where God Almighty is, so that he can be properly “faced” ?

Is the Mass offered to God, or is it offered for the people?
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God is in the tabernacle, now i will admit that withoout a centrl tabernacle, ad orientem may be rather odd, but still it is tradition, and because of our Catholic traditions, we have weathered every storm God has sent at us to test us. Plus everyone of us knows who he is, and what God expects him to do.

Aslo the mass is offered to God, for the sake of the people. in pagan sacrifices and the old testament sacrifices the priest was at the altar and the laity were backed away from it. Ad orientem just helps us remeber that the Mass is not a communal meal, unlike the protestant thought. It is a Sacrifice, first and foremost, and should be treated as such
 
agr4028 said:
You sure about that? What was the Last Supper?
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Read the Words of Scripture, yes the Last Supper was the Passover Meal, but the act that Christ conjures up, for lack of better terminology is that of his Sacrifice. It is the Sacrifice on Calvary that becomes truly present in every Catholic sanctuary throughout the world. Hence this beautiful painting…

ok never m ind imageshack doesnt wanna work… but ill put it up as soon as i can get it up.

now the Mass is a spiritual meal but again, first and foremost it is a SACRIFICE
 
Auntie_M said:
I am very sorry you feel our Lord has “lied”. Since HE said the gates of Hell would not prevail. My Catholic Church is still right where it always has been. In Rome, where the chair of Peter is and our Pope. If you don’t want “moderism” then we should not even be inside a building. Jesus taught on mountain sides, valleys, where ever He went, he taught the good news. And Jesus never spoke Latin. But if you NEED all the “show” to feel His presence, then maybe it isn’t the “moderism” that you talk about, maybe it’s just that you need to go to your closet and pray in secret. 🙂
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Why do you assume things about how I feel? If your post wasn’t so bereft of knowledge and understanding about our faith I wouldn’t bother to answer, but really the things you say are the type of unfounded and clueless statements that I have heard from those who, to state it in a nutshell, hate tradition, are threatened by the truth, and don’t want to bother to find out anything about the history of the church. You must think the church began with Vatican II. Yes, the modernists have really succeeded in erasing from the minds of modern Catholics all that is beautiful, ancient, traditional, and above all…what is most pleasing to God.
 
piouswoman said:
Why do you assume things about how I feel?.. but really the things you say are the type of unfounded and clueless statements that I have heard from those who hate tradition, are threatened by the truth, and don’t want to bother to find out anything about the history of the church.
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Anyone else see the contradiction here?

None of us should be jumping to conclusions about what other think and feel.
 
pnewton said:
Anyone else see the contradiction here?

None of us should be jumping to conclusions about what other think and feel.
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Your post is not correct. There is NO CONTRADICTION.

Clearly, if you read the post, Auntie M most certainly assumed an opinion of how I felt.

I most certainly DID NOT assume anything about Auntie M, but merely stated that her remarks are typical of the remarks I have been hearing. That is a statement of fact, not assumption.
 
piouswoman said:
I most certainly DID NOT assume anything about Auntie M, but merely stated that her remarks are typical of the remarks I have been hearing. That is a statement of fact, not assumption.
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Really? You have had people state that they hate tradition and are threatened by the truth?
 
pnewton said:
Really? You have had people state that they hate tradition and are threatened by the truth?
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Are you telling me that if they don’t say it in so many words, that even when it is most obvious, when they have argued defiantly and vigorously against the truths of our faith, that I may* not* assume that they hate tradition? Yet someone who doesn’t know me from Adam, on a public forum like this, can assume anything they want simply because they don’t like to hear what I am saying? That is EXACTLY what you are telling me, whether you realize it or not. Have you forgotten how to be reasonable, logical and sane in favor of nit-picking? Use some diplomacy.
 
piouswoman said:
Are you telling me that if they don’t say it in so many words, that even when it is most obvious, when they have argued defiantly and vigorously against the truths of our faith, that I may* not* assume that they hate tradition? Yet someone who doesn’t know me from Adam, on a public forum like this, can assume anything they want simply because they don’t like to hear what I am saying? That is EXACTLY what you are telling me, whether you realize it or not. Have you forgotten how to be reasonable, logical and sane in favor of nit-picking? Use some diplomacy.
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:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
 
piouswoman said:
Are you telling me that if they don’t say it in so many words, that even when it is most obvious, when they have argued defiantly and vigorously against the truths of our faith, that I may* not* assume that they hate tradition? Yet someone who doesn’t know me from Adam, on a public forum like this, can assume anything they want simply because they don’t like to hear what I am saying? That is EXACTLY what you are telling me, whether you realize it or not. Have you forgotten how to be reasonable, logical and sane in favor of nit-picking? Use some diplomacy.
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Brian777 said:
God is in the tabernacle, now i will admit that withoout a centrl tabernacle, ad orientem may be rather odd, but still it is tradition, and because of our Catholic traditions, we have weathered every storm God has sent at us to test us. Plus everyone of us knows who he is, and what God expects him to do.

Aslo the mass is offered to God, for the sake of the people. in pagan sacrifices and the old testament sacrifices the priest was at the altar and the laity were backed away from it. Ad orientem just helps us remeber that the Mass is not a communal meal, unlike the protestant thought. It is a Sacrifice, first and foremost, and should be treated as such
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Excuse me?
“and because of our “Catholic traditions”, we have weathered every storm God has sent at us to test us”???
It seems to me that many on this forum think they are in control of all situations, not God. Is this possible? Or have you forgotten faith in God and put it into yourselves??? Or am I forgetting the words our Savior gave to us about the Church being proteced? They were"…
Please fill in.
 
piouswoman said:
Are you telling me that if they don’t say it in so many words, that even when it is most obvious, when they have argued defiantly and vigorously against the truths of our faith, that I may* not* assume that they hate tradition?
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You may assume what you want, but then you are no different than those who make assumptions about you. That is what I am saying. In other words, by what manner you judge other, so you are also judged.

It may not be tradition they hate. It may not be truth they are afraid of. It might be you and your approach.
 
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