Who wrote the Book of Mormon?

[Katholikos]

BYU-BOY:

If I felt that your intentions were to discover what Mormons believe I would labor dililgently to explain. However, my experiences these last few weeks have shown that the intentions of these forums have been to build personal pride and degrade others beliefs. You do not care what the Mormons believe, you only care to prove them wrong . . .

I am not writing this because your viewpoints disagree with mine. I write this because you are not looking to understand anothers viewpoint as you claim you are. You seem only to be trying to validate your own…

You may quite possibly be right in your assumption of having the complete truth. However, you are absolutely dead wrong on how you practice your beliefs, at least from what I have witnessed on this site.

BYU-BOY,

Some of us know Mormon doctrine because we have studied it. I looked at Mormonism long before I became a Catholic. I’ve read some of the early documents of Mormonism, and know what used to be taught and is not taught now – at least not openly – such as the belief that God had intercourse with Mary and thus produced Jesus. And that Jesus was a polygamist. And that the Bible is a polluted and insufficient guide from which the truth has been deliberately removed. (Guess who removed it!)

Mormonism isn’t just another denomination – it asserts that the Church I love is apostate and calls her “most abominable above all other churches,” and “a great abomination,” and says that “the devil is the foundation of it” 1 Nephi 13. Now that’s what I call “unChristian.” Then you teach that this “abomination” of a Church went into “apostasy” and God removed her from the face of the earth. You further teach that the Catholic Church’s claims to be the One True Church of Jesus Christ are a lie – because that claim belongs to YOUR church, which is the “restored” True Church. To which I say bull-oney.

You teach that the Trinity is three separate Gods. And that Jesus and Satan are brothers, and that we are all brothers and sisters of both Satan and Jesus. I could go on.

Please excuse me if I find these beliefs offensive. You are, I’m sure, a nice young man. My criticism of your religion is not in any way a personal criticism of you.

Your religion claims to be Christian, but it is polytheistic – you believe there are many gods. Judaism is the first monotheistic religion in the world, and Christianity is the fulfillment of Judaism. The very thought that there could be more than the One True God is repulsive. Your beliefs are based on a misreading of the Old Testament verses which – Mormons believe – imply that God is plural, such as “Let us make man in our image.” Judaism never read her own Scriptures the way Mormons do.

Joseph Smith was convicted of fraud in New York for bilking people out of money by promising that he could find buried treasure on their land by use of a magic “peep stone.” He later founded the Mormon religion.

You’ve never addressed my post regarding Mormonism and the Bible.

Peace be with you.

JMJ Jay

 

[BYU-BOY]

Katholikos,

I am grateful that you responded to my post. It seems to me that there is something deeper than what Mormons believe that is troubling you. The assertions that you make as doctrines of the LDS faith are fallacious and half truths at best. You only seem to know what you would like to know and nothing more. That is the reason that I didn’t respond to your last post. I felt that no matter what I wrote you would argue and construe my points and my beliefs. You seem to be more determined to learn about Christ from Judas of Iscariot than from a direct and true source.

However, you bring up several questions that have been re-occurring on this forum, so, I will do my best to answer the questions and assumptions that have been stated. Yet, I refuse to argue who is right and who is wrong. My intentions are to show you what a Mormon believes from the perspective of a devout Mormon and no further. I do not claim to be the complete source to your questions. I do claim though, that I have studied out in depth my religion and the accusations that have been levied against it. Nevertheless, I have learned from my own personal experiences that conviction is not found in trivial words of men but rather in the divine essence of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, the only way to obtain truth is through your literal relationship with God.

I have listed below the questions that you and others have stated on this forum. I will do my best to answer each in depth. I apologize to those on this forum who only want to discuss the origins of the Book of Mormon. I hope to address this question too. Yet, I will be using this forum to go through the different accusations that have been presented. Please feel free to add to my list of questions. I must let you know though, that it will take some time for me to go through every question. I am in my final year at BYU and have a heavy load of classes. In truth, I should be working on several different papers that are due at the end of the Thanksgiving break; however, I find this much more enlightening and enjoyable.

Questions

1. The belief that God had intercourse with Mary and thus produced Jesus.
2. That Jesus was a polygamist.
3. The Bible is a polluted and insufficient guide from which the truth has been deliberately removed.
4. The Catholic church is the great whore of all churches.
5. The LDS Church is the true church.
6. Belief in more then one God.
7. God is a corporeal being
8. Joseph Smith is a scandal and convicted of several charges for swindling.
9. Jesus and Satan are brothers.
10. Let’s not forget my favorite, “Man can become God.”

 

[Katholikos]

BYU-BOY:

Katholikos,

. . . It seems to me that there is something deeper than what Mormons believe that is troubling you.

It seems to me that you are wrong.

The assertions that you make as doctrines of the LDS faith are fallacious and half truths at best.

Which of the statements I have made about Mormon doctrine are fallacious and half-truths? Be specific. Now’s your chance. Otherwise, the statements will stand.

You only seem to know what you would like to know and nothing more.

I know what I know from the Book of Mormon, Doctrine & Covenants, the Pearl of Great Price, the writings of LDS authorities themselves, and history books.

That is the reason that I didn’t respond to your last post. I felt that no matter what I wrote you would argue and construe my points and my beliefs.

I inquired about the “corrected” Mormon Bible on the ‘God has Flesh and Bones’ thread. You didn’t respond. That’s what I’m referring to.

You seem to be more determined to learn about Christ from Judas of Iscariot than from a direct and true source.

The BOM, the other Mormon ‘scriptures,’ and the writings of the leaders of the Mormon church aren’t direct and true sources? Hmmmm.

I have learned from my own personal experiences that conviction is not found in trivial words of men but rather in the divine essence of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, the only way to obtain truth is through your literal relationship with God.

Sure. Forget logic. If you get a burning in the bosom, that’s verification from God, and you can be sure it’s true. Of course, it could also be acid reflux disease.

I have listed below the questions that you and others have stated on this forum. I will do my best to answer each in depth. I apologize to those on this forum who only want to discuss the origins of the Book of Mormon. I hope to address this question too.

But that’s where any discussion of Mormonism has to start – with the origin of the Book of Mormon and with the integrity of the person of Joseph Smith, the alleged prophet of God. If the BOM is not the “word of God” and Joseph Smith is a fraud, Mormonism falls. You’re getting the cart before the horse.
Discuss the essentials first.

Yet, I will be using this forum to go through the different accusations that have been presented. Please feel free to add to my list of questions.

I again ask you to examine the basic premises first. You must prove that the BOM is truly “another testament of Jesus Christ” on a par with the Bible and that JS is a true “prophet of God” before you can expect us to deal with any of its teachings.

It is irrelevant what you or any Mormon believes. What matters is what the LDS (Mormon) Church teaches – or has taught – either now or in the past.

What I personally believe is irrelevant – it’s what the Catholic Church teaches that matters.

Peace be with you, Jay

 

[Checkmate]

I didn’t read through all the replies, my (spiritual) eyes are teary from (spiritual) laughter…sorry…truly I am…Oy!

My favourites are the “honey-bees” that were mentioned in the New World before their arrival via the European immigrants, and the ever popular Great War of which there just flat ain’t no evidence.

Judge Judy says, “If it doens’t make sense, it isn’t true.”

Pie Iesu Domine…

 

[BYU-BOY]

Katholikos,
This will be my last reply to you. You are welcome to believe that you beat me or that I couldn’t take the truth. However, you are the exact person I refuse to talk to. I am not here to prove my religion to you. As a missionary I came across similar individuals such as yourself. Every time I asked them a simple question, “If our Lord and Savior personally came to you and told you that the Book of Mormon was true and that Joseph Smith was a Prophet of God would you believe?” Surprisingly more often than not I was given the answer no.

I know that Jesus Christ is the Savior and the Redeemer of the world because of the witness that the Holy Spirit has given me. I know that Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon, and the modern-day LDS church have been given to the world to help people find and discover truth. You can state that these convictions are the result of “acid reflux disease” just as I am sure that many might have said something similar when the two men who were walking to Emmaus stated the passage from Luke 24:32 after having Christ disappear from them: “And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?”

My own deep conviction of the truth comes from the same question that I asked those that disbelieved me as a missionary. However, I reversed the question, ““If my Lord and Savior personally came to me and told me that the Book of Mormon was NOT true and that Joseph Smith was NOT a prophet would I believe?” I have deep and profound belief and desire to follow the Savior. From this experience and others I have come to sincerely believe that the Lord wants me to be the best Mormon that I can possibly be. I also firmly believe that there are Catholics and Protestants that have similar testimonies of Christ. Does this make someone wrong and someone right? I don’t think so. The purpose of this life is to come closer to Christ. If that means you are able to achieve this through the Catholic church, then I encourage you to be the best Catholic there ever was. Yes, I do believe that there is “One True Church”, however, I do not believe that this church has a corner on the market in truth or happiness for that matter.

Let us be Brothers and Sisters in Christ. Whether we are a Catholic or Mormon brother and sister, we can still understand each other without believing the others doctrine.

BYU BOY
P.S. Your half truth - I find it interesting that Book of Mormon has never stated that the Catholic church is the “most abominable above all other churches,” and “a great abomination,” and says that “the devil is the foundation of it”. Granted Bruce R. McConkie stated this in his first addition of “Mormon Doctrine” (which has never received the Church’s official approval) but he was severely reprimanded by the church and in his later editions pulled these statements out. So, if you are going to quote something make sure that you quote it accurately.

 

[BYU-BOY]

I am still going to answer the 10 questions that I posted earlier. I will be creating a thread with the title, “The Truth about Mormons from a Devout Mormon.” All are welcome to participate in this forum. As stated many times, I refuse to demean my beliefs by arguing them. Either you believe them or you don’t. That is completely your prerogative. However, contention is not what I desire by sharing with you my beliefs. There is a great Book of Mormon scripture that quotes the Savior saying, “For verily, verily I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another.”

 

[rcwhiteh]

BYU-BOY;

I have to agree with Katholikos - you are sidestepping the important issue under discussion.

There is quite a body of evidence that points to the conclusion that the Mormon faith is a deluded one, and that Mormons have been defrauded of salvation by the lies of a false prophet. If Joseph Smith lied about the golden plates - if he lied about appearances by various celestial beings - if he lied about God being just another man who worked out his own salvation and became “exalted” - then he has perpetrated an unconscionable hoax on millions of people in the same way that religious charlatans have done for centuries.

There are a number of inconsistencies in the Mormon faith that all spring from the Book of Mormon; they are detailed in the library maintained on the Catholic Answers website. If you have the wisdom to refute them point by point, by all means do so; we will all be very interested in such an intellectual tour de force.

Be advised that if you embark upon this effort, leave “the burning in the breast” out of it. Intellectual rigor is what will carry the day here; vague appeals to questionable feelings will be ignored; indeed, they may be used to prove the insupportability of Mormonism.

We’re prepared to listen and respond politely; we only ask three things:

• Stick to the topic under discussion
• Avoid ad hominem attacks - this applies to the rest of us as well
• Don’t refer to the Book of Mormon for proof of any argument; its validity is what under dispute

With that said, I yield the floor to BYU-BOY, awaiting his reasoned response with polite interest.

 

[BYU-BOY]

rcwhiteh:

Be advised that if you embark upon this effort, leave “the burning in the breast” out of it. Intellectual rigor is what will carry the day here; vague appeals to questionable feelings will be ignored; indeed, they may be used to prove the insupportability of Mormonism.

We’re prepared to listen and respond politely; we only ask three things:

• Stick to the topic under discussion
• Avoid ad hominem attacks - this applies to the rest of us as well
• Don’t refer to the Book of Mormon for proof of any argument; its validity is what under dispute

With that said, I yield the floor to BYU-BOY, awaiting his reasoned response with polite interest.

RCWHITEH,

I appreciate the guidelines that you have laid forth. I have presented the answer to the first question, “Do Mormons believe that God had intercourse with Mary and thus produced Jesus.” in a new thread that I started. If my answers does not follow your guidelines please let me know.

BYU BOY

 

[Chris-WA]

BYU-BOY:

Katholikos,
I find it interesting that Book of Mormon has never stated that the Catholic church is the “most abominable above all other churches,” and “a great abomination,” and says that “the devil is the foundation of it”. Granted Bruce R. McConkie stated this in his first addition of “Mormon Doctrine” (which has never received the Church’s official approval) but he was severely reprimanded by the church and in his later editions pulled these statements out. So, if you are going to quote something make sure that you quote it accurately.

I had never heard that McConkie was reprimanded for this statement. What happened to him?

 

[BYU-BOY]

Elder McConkie was verbally reprimanded by the brothern of the church. He later offered a public apology on the radio for his remarks.

 

[Malachi4U]

When I lived in Utah PBS used to show Mormon history shows or other Mormon propaganda programs all the time. Your tax dollars at work. It is amazing when you read true history and then compare it to the history the LDS church portrays in its propaganda.

An example, poor ol’ joe was murdered while in a jail cell and unarmed is told by the Mormons I know and worked with. In fact poor joe was shoot while sreaming to fellow masons (attacking him) to have bitty on him while he was armed and fleeing out the back window of his bedroom above the jailhouse. Truth vs. fiction.

I talked with Mormons everday in Utah that had no idea joe copied so many of their rituals from the masons and was not unarmed and was not in a jail cell.

Anyway, the truth about Mormon history is out there, you just have to get through the propaganda of the corporation, no I mean business, no I mean church.:whacky:

The Mormon church is growing fast. It would be wise to get a free copy of the KJV Bible and a Book of Mormon at their web site. When the missionaries delivery the books invite them in and talk with them. You’ll have a great time and they are very nice people too. Who knows, you might bring one back home to Rome where we all belong!:clapping:

 

[Katholikos]

BYU-BOY:

Katholikos,
You are welcome to believe that you beat me or that I couldn’t take the truth.

If I am wrong, it should be easy to prove.

I am not here to prove my religion to you.

Then why are you posting at Catholic Answers? .

… “If our Lord and Savior … told you that the Book of Mormon was true and that Joseph Smith was a Prophet of God would you believe?”

Jesus has NOT told anyone that the BOM is true and that JS is his “prophet.” A “yes” means that Jesus Christ contradicts Himself and all He taught His Church through the Apostles. Jesus Christ is the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, God Himself. It is an ontological impossibility for God to contradict Himself. Happens in the LDS church all the time – if you want a God who changes his mind, Mormonism obliges.

In LDS doctrine, Jesus was one of countless spirit-children of Heavenly Father and an unspecified goddess-mother, conceived through sexual intercourse, who pre-existed in the spirit-world before he volunteered to come to earth to “save” mankind. Lucifer, the brother of Jesus and our brother (we are all former spirit-children of the same two dieties) also volunteered, but Jesus was chosen. Lucifer rebelled in anger. Thus began “The War in Heaven.” (Gospel Principles, pubished by the LDS Church, 1988, p. 16.)

I can believe that Satan is my brother and the brother of Jesus, or I can be a Christian.

I know Jesus Christ is the Savior and the Redeemer of the world because of the witness that the Holy Spirit … Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon, and the modern-day LDS church have been given to the world to help people find and discover truth.[/QU

OTE]

Sure. And The “truth” is available only in the “One True LDS church.” The original Church Jesus founded failed and for 19 centuries has misled billions and billions of Catholics – but Joe Smith, the “true prophet of God” was chosen to save us.

You can state that these convictions are the result of “acid reflux disease” just as I am sure that many might have said something similar when the two men who were walking to Emmaus …“And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he [Christ]…opened to us the scriptures?”

You are making a comparison between your subjective, emotional experience and the inspired Word of God.

… as a missionary… I reversed the question, ““If my Lord and Savior personally … told me that the Book of Mormon was NOT true and that Joseph Smith was NOT a prophet would I believe?”… the Lord wants me to be the best Mormon that I can possibly be.

Our beliefs are diametrically opposed. When we speak of Jesus, we are talking about two different persons. Your Jesus is a separate God, one of three gods, which Mormons call “the Trinity” in order to perpetuate the myth that their religion is Christian. It isn’t.

Continued

 

[Katholikos]

Part 2 - reply to BYU-BOY

I also firmly believe that there are Catholics and Protestants that have similar testimonies of Christ.

.
Impossible. When you say “Jesus” you mean the Jesus taught by Mormonism, who is not at all the Jesus a Christian has in mind.

Does this make someone wrong and someone right?

Yes, it makes Mormons wrong.

The purpose of this life is to come closer to Christ.

Yes, to become closer to the real Christ, not the ersatz one invented by Joseph Smith in 1830.
Yes, I do believe that there is “One True Church”, however, I do not believe that this church has a corner on the market in truth…And – you believe the Catholic Church has been “apostate” since shortly after the last Apostole died and that this Church is wholly and utterly corrupt and wrong about what it teaches. Only the “restored” LDS church is the One True Church. Bull-oney.

Let us be Brothers and Sisters in Christ.

First, we have to agree on who Christ is. He is certainly not Satan’s brother, as you and all Mormons believe.

Whether we are a Catholic or Mormon brother and sister, we can still understand each other without believing the others doctrine.

Mormonism is not just another Christian denomination, sharing a belief in the same God, the same Christ. We have nothing theological in common. Your “Christ” is just a guy with the same name. We are brothers and sisters because we are genetically related, not because of similarities in our religious beliefs.

P.S. Your half truth . . . Book of Mormon has never stated that the Catholic church is the “most abominable above all other churches,” and “a great abomination,” and says that “the devil is the foundation of it”. Granted Bruce R. McConkie stated this in his first addition of “Mormon Doctrine” (which has never received the Church’s official approval) but he was severely reprimanded by the church and in his later editions pulled these statements out. So, if you are going to quote something make sure that you quote it accurately.

Ludicrous, my friend. Just which of the thousands of 16th century and subsequent Protestant churches does the BOM refer to, if it is not the the only Church that existed for the first thousand years of Christianity? 1 Nephi was purportedly written between 600 and 592 B.C.

That happens a lot with Mormonism. The “authorities” change a teaching when it proves an embarrassment. Bruce McConkie wrote what was commonly held by Mormons at the time (1953). His book is still sold in LDS bookstores and was and is a recommended source of Mormon doctrine. Where’s the evidence that he was “severely reprimanded by the church”? Every Mormon book has been modified over time to aid the pretense that Mormonism is Christian.

Peace be with you, Jay

 

[Katholikos]

Malachi4U:

.
It would be wise to get a free copy of the KJV Bible and a Book of Mormon at their web site.

I want a copy of the KJV as Joe Smith “corrected” it, but the “missionaries” don’t give you that one. I also want the original edition of the Book of Mormon, before it, too, got “corrected.” Maybe BYU-BOY will offer me copies?

JMJ Jay

 

[Katholikos]

BYU-BOY:

Elder McConkie was verbally reprimanded by the brothern of the church. He later offered a public apology on the radio for his remarks.

Nothing in writing, huh? How convenient.

 

[Katholikos]

BYU-BOY:

I am still going to answer the 10 questions that I posted earlier. I will be creating a thread with the title, “The Truth about Mormons from a Devout Mormon.” All are welcome to participate in this forum. As stated many times, I refuse to demean my beliefs by arguing them. Either you believe them or you don’t. That is completely your prerogative. However, contention is not what I desire by sharing with you my beliefs. There is a great Book of Mormon scripture that quotes the Savior saying, “For verily, verily I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another.”

To state the obvious, you have not established that the Book of Mormon is “Scripture,” so you should refrain from quoting it as “scripture” until such time as you produce the evidence that it is what you claim it is. You have refused to do so.

“I refuse to demean my beliefs by arguing them” means that you have no defense for them.

Did Newton “demean his beliefs” in the Law of Gravity by proving it?

JMJ Jay

Peace be with you, Jay

 

[BJ_Colbert]

Katholikos,
I doubt you could prove to a group of Athiests that the Holy Bible is scripture. No matter how you argue that you have proof that the Bible is scripture, they will have proof of the opposite.
When my husband was married to his first wife in a Mass. After they divorced he was not allowed communion. He was told by two priests in his parish and one over the catholic radio, that “What God has joined together, let no man put asunder” He was told over and over that phrase. Then I told him to just go to confession and talk to the priest. He went and the priest refused to hear his confession. So I encouraged him to keep trying to talk to someone. He got an appointment with the head priest of his parish, who said that the other priest was wrong and he should ask for him when making confession. The other priest was too traditional. Then he had him fill out a bunch of papers and write a letter and submit it with $400.00 to a tribunal. Someone from the tribunal called and asked questions about his past life in a Catholic orphanage. They asked him if he was abused by the priests and he said no, only by the nuns. Within a week they had absolved him of all sin and sent a priest to our home to tell him to say 30 hail marys and he was totally forgiven. Now, how did that happen after over 25 years of being told there was no hope? Can you explain?
Why is the Catholic church not set up as Jesus set up his church when he was on earth with a prophet and 12 apostles? Why does the Catholic church have priests and nuns who are not allowed to marry and have children, when that is the most important part of life. What scripture tells you to give up baptizing by emersion as Jesus taught, and baptize by sprinkling?
What makes you believe so fervently that the Catholic church is the one and only true church? It is probably the same thing that makes me believe the LDS church is the true church restored to the earth in the same form as it was originally established on the earth by Jesus Christ. As for the Mormons believing the Catholic church is the devil’s church…that is emphatically not true. I am allowed to have my own free agency to believe and say what I wish to say without censure by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, but because I say something that I believe to be true does not mean it is church doctrine. I believe The Book of Mormon is true, because I have faith that it is, the same faith I have that Jesus is my savior and that Joseph Smith was a prophet in these latter days who restored the Church of Jesus Christ in its original form upon the earth.
In the days of ancient Israel and effective method of testing the claims of a professed prophet was prescribed. “When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shall not be afraid of him.” Conversely if the words of the prophet are verified by fulfilment there is at least proof presumptive of his divine calling. Of the many predictions uttered by Joseph Smith and already fulfilled or awaiting the set time of their realization, a few citations will suffice. One of the earliest prophecies delivered through him, which wile not his independent utterance but that of the angel Moroni was nevertheless given to the world by Joseph Smith, had specific reference to the Book of Mormon, of which the angel said:
“The knowlidge that this record contains will go to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, under the whole heaven.” This declaration made four years before the work of translation was begun, and fourteen years before the elders of the Church began their missionary labor in foreign lands. Since that time the Book of Mormon has been publised in many languages and the work of its world- wide distribution is still in progress

 

[mjdonnelly]

There is a South Park episode that explains it all.

 

[tkdnick]

Katholikos:

I want a copy of the KJV as Joe Smith “corrected” it, but the “missionaries” don’t give you that one. I also want the original edition of the Book of Mormon, before it, too, got “corrected.” Maybe BYU-BOY will offer me copies?

JMJ Jay

There are a couple seller’s on ebay who are selling sealed (still wrapped in the plastic) copies of the original version. I purchased one and though it hasn’t come yet, it sure looks from the pictures to be a copy of the original. And it’s coming from a bookstore in Utah, which seems to me to make it even more credible.

 

[tkdnick]

We’ve really lost the point of this thread…to discuss where the BoM came from. Why don’t we get back on that topic? And maybe to help that…I am curious to hear an LDS response to a previous post of mine regarding Joseph Smith’s age. Many LDS people I know make a big deal out the fact that Joseph Smith couldn’t have faked the BoM because he was an uneducated 14 yr old boy. But he wasn’t according to biographical information…He was 21. Can someone of the LDS faith please explain?