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mark_a
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Please continue. Also, I find your signature interesting. Care to elaborate?
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Benadam
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It may be hard for some to entertain Eve as the whore of babylon. I should say right off that Adam and Eve became a very Holy. I believe they returned to the righteous perfection that made a staight way for the Lord. How could any human have access to it unless it was recovered by our first parents. We know they wer a holy eneogh family that their descendant Enoch was translated into heaven without experiencing death. Apparently a family they could be proud of. I think their wakeup call was the events that lost them their own creations of man. Eve’s Cain killed Adam’s Abel. It’s a dynamic so very active in todays family. especially in our western culture where the idolatrous mind prevails . It stems from the overwhelming fear of loneliness that even leads to dispair in many people today. This dispaire echo’s the real loneliness that Adam and Eve were fearing after the fall. Without each other they would experience utter loss and abandonement. In Eve these fears were projected onto Cain as needs that formed a false purpose for his life in service of his mother and a false identity of self that formed to relieve the anxieties associated with the developement of consciousness in a world that lacked the love the infant expects. The seperation anxieties of his infancy were relieved by distortions of reality allowing him to remain in states of consciousness experienced before he became aware of the true reality of the world that lacked justice and love. When Cain was born Eve said " With the help of God I have got me a man" Contrast that with what she says when Seth is born. " The Lord has provided me with another offspring" there can be detected a change in conscious awareness of the meaning of herself and her children, as well as who God is in relation to her. For Cain though His meaning is found in the purposes established by his mothers fears of loneliness and abandonement. In imitation of God Eve created man. If you look carefully at the text you will see that Cain is an imitation of Adam. This is Cain’s false Identity. False Adam. Anti- Adam if you will. You know what I’m suggesting this is the archetype of.
Cain was bound to live out his purposes as established in her no matter how far he wandered. Who can escape family baggage? It’[s interesting when considering that the dynamic between them that the first activity in the world mentioned in Cain’s story is the building of a town. I suggest this town is the first Babylon. So Cain continues his appeasing of nature ( the offering rejected by God) born of a need for control that leads to seeking out spiritual communities (demons) that will allow the material community of Cain’s people to manifest spiritual goods and seduce the sons of Adam to join them in the defilement of the first covenant by practicing polygamy. This event becomes repeated history throughout the history of the People of God. Re-echoed in the mormon story. ( another thread) The times when the Israelites are seduced by women who were taught how to do it by the Prophet Balaam. Jesus mentions the continuation of that dynamic in Revelation too.
to be continued
Cain was bound to live out his purposes as established in her no matter how far he wandered. Who can escape family baggage? It’[s interesting when considering that the dynamic between them that the first activity in the world mentioned in Cain’s story is the building of a town. I suggest this town is the first Babylon. So Cain continues his appeasing of nature ( the offering rejected by God) born of a need for control that leads to seeking out spiritual communities (demons) that will allow the material community of Cain’s people to manifest spiritual goods and seduce the sons of Adam to join them in the defilement of the first covenant by practicing polygamy. This event becomes repeated history throughout the history of the People of God. Re-echoed in the mormon story. ( another thread) The times when the Israelites are seduced by women who were taught how to do it by the Prophet Balaam. Jesus mentions the continuation of that dynamic in Revelation too.
to be continued
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Benadam
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mark a:
I found it in the book of Job I think. Not sure but I am sure it’s a quote out of the OT.
I thought it fitting for a public debate forum once I began noticing the accuser whispering in the ears of debaters.
I found it in the book of Job I think. Not sure but I am sure it’s a quote out of the OT.
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Maccabees
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MaggieOH
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Actually William Barclay rejected any such notion of the Catholic Church as the whore of Babylon. As I said he gives a very good historical perspective on the issue, which is something that is rare amongst Protestants these day. No Barclay’s main thesis on this point is that the whore of Babylon brought us back to Nero and his wife, who apparently did act like a whore.
I agree with you about the Navarre, since it is a very good Catholic commentary. What I was aiming at in my comment is that Barclay is a good Protestant commentary that does not include the usual rapture nonsense.
Maggie
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kepha1
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I wouldn’t recommend anyone go shopping around looking at hate sites, but has anyone noticed the dominating colors are almost always red and black, the same colors as Nazism?
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mark_a
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After reading this, I guess my own baggage isn’t as heavy as I thought it was.
Please do continue. Very interesting.
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MarkAnthonyCozy
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English is the language used in this part of the world. If we are to evangelize our world then we must use this language as it is.
I never gave it much thought until I heard an apologist on EWTN radio correct himself after saying that Catholics adore Mary. He came back on the radio one week later stating that after being counciled on the subject he made an error in stating that Catholics adore Mary. He stated that adoration is for God and God alone.
This is why I passed it to you.
According to Webster’s dictionary “adore” has three meanings. The first meaning refers to the worship and honor of a diety. The second meaning refers to reverant admiration and devotion. The third refers to extreme fondness.
With this in mind a Catholic can adore God, Mary, or the family pet as long as a qualifying description is given as to which level of adoration is used. Without the qualifier one is left to assume which level of adoration one is referring when using this term.
Hence the wisdom of the EWTN Apologetics Team to reserve the term “adoration” for God and God alone… I’m assuming.
I’m going to go and pray my daily Rosary now.
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Theodred
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I’m not convinced that I have to qualify the statement, “I adore my wife”, just because some putz with an ideological agenda wants to force us to give up all common sense.
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MarkAnthonyCozy
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Théodred:
Striving for truth and reduced to a “putz,” Yiddish for a fool or an idiot.
One can “adore” one’s wife. “Adoration” is reserved for God and God alone.
This is off track of the subject and not worthy of further discussion on my part. I apologize if I have offended anyone.
**Adoration: **The acknowledgment of God as God, Creator and Savior, the Lord and Master of everything that exists. Through worship and prayer, the Church and individual persons give to God the adoration which is the first act of the virtue of religion. The first commandment of the law obliges us to adore God (2096, 2097, 2628; cf. 1083) Catechism of the Catholic Church 2nd Edition
Striving for truth and reduced to a “putz,” Yiddish for a fool or an idiot.
One can “adore” one’s wife. “Adoration” is reserved for God and God alone.
This is off track of the subject and not worthy of further discussion on my part. I apologize if I have offended anyone.
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Benadam
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MarkAnthonyCozy said:
I don’t think you’re off topic. Many people think of the Catholic response to Jesus’ mother as idolatry and part of the reason is the misconception of words such as adore.
I call it misconception in part. Because I believe that the obvious is denied in order to fulfill the requirements of an agenda. Who really doesn’t understand that there is a feeling people have for others that the word adore is commonly used to describe? The fact that the word and the feeling have an application reserved for divinity is really the knowledge that isn’t common. I would say uncommon eneogh among most people that only people who focus on theology would have a problem with it’s usage and only those ignorant among them or committed to an agenda would mention it. The ignorant would probably be nonexistent.
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Theodred
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MarkAnthonyCozy said:
*Adoratio, adorationis, f. means adoration or worship. The verb is adorare, which means to ask for, to praise, or to worship. Adoratio, adorationis, f. is the noun form of the verb adorare, which is clearly evident in the CCC:
(2096) Adoratio primus est virtutis religionis actus. Deum adorare est Eum agnoscere… (2097) Deum adorare est observantia et submissione absoluta agnoscere “nihilum creaturae,” quae nonnisi a Deo est…
The same is true in English. The verb form of “adoration” is “to adore”, just as it is in Latin. You are presenting a false dichotomy. If I adore my wife or my children, I am, indeed, guilty of adoration. English words, just like Latin words, often have multiple meanings, and it is extremely foolish to attach an absolute meaning to a word when such a meaning has never been exclusive of other possible meanings. Obviously my adoration of my wife and children is not the same as my adoration of God… obvious to everyone using common sense, of course.
*
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Benadam
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Do you know if they have physical proofs attached to the Sainthood of Adam and Eve?I have some thoughts that imply that maybe they aren’t. Yet.
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MaggieOH
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Yes, I would like to know why they would be considered to be saints. It is a new one on me that we would refer to Adam and Eve as saints…
Maggie
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GaryZak
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Once again, in any argument or debate, there MUST be OBJECTIVES or it’s just NONSENSE, sily NONSENSE…
Always asking myself what am I fostering LOVE or some form of tyrannical CONTROL… To WIN without LOVE breads NOTHING… And NOTHING but LOVE, true LOVE will LIVE forever…
1JN 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear because fear has to do with punishment, and so one who fears is not yet perfect in love.
HOW this became a ,“QUEST for CONTROLLING OTHERS,” I’ll always wonder…
mo-tive (motiv).What one intends to do or achieve : purpose, aim, design, goal, intent, intention, meaning, plan, ambition, aspiration, objective, object, mission, target, resolution, motive, scheme, project, proposal. Something that influences a decision or moves to action : motive, cause, consideration, motivation, reason. Capable of moving or of being moved. adj.mobile, active, dynamic, kinetic, motile, motive, moving, propulsive, unfixed, unstationary.Antonyms: immobile, unmoving, stationary, fixed.
Excerpted from American Heritage Talking Dictionary
Copyright © 1997 The Learning Company, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
LK 14:28 Which of you wishing to construct a tower does not first sit down and calculate the cost to see if there is enough for its completion?
14:29 Otherwise, after laying the foundation and finding himself unable to finish the work the onlookers should laugh at him
14:30 and say, ‘This one began to build but did not have the resources to finish.’
ushistory.org/declaration/document/rough.htm
Always asking myself what am I fostering LOVE or some form of tyrannical CONTROL… To WIN without LOVE breads NOTHING… And NOTHING but LOVE, true LOVE will LIVE forever…
1JN 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear because fear has to do with punishment, and so one who fears is not yet perfect in love.
HOW this became a ,“QUEST for CONTROLLING OTHERS,” I’ll always wonder…
mo-tive (motiv).What one intends to do or achieve : purpose, aim, design, goal, intent, intention, meaning, plan, ambition, aspiration, objective, object, mission, target, resolution, motive, scheme, project, proposal. Something that influences a decision or moves to action : motive, cause, consideration, motivation, reason. Capable of moving or of being moved. adj.mobile, active, dynamic, kinetic, motile, motive, moving, propulsive, unfixed, unstationary.Antonyms: immobile, unmoving, stationary, fixed.
Excerpted from American Heritage Talking Dictionary
Copyright © 1997 The Learning Company, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
LK 14:28 Which of you wishing to construct a tower does not first sit down and calculate the cost to see if there is enough for its completion?
14:29 Otherwise, after laying the foundation and finding himself unable to finish the work the onlookers should laugh at him
14:30 and say, ‘This one began to build but did not have the resources to finish.’
ushistory.org/declaration/document/rough.htm
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Benadam
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mark a:
Cain became an idol to his mother and his mother became an idol to him. The sin of Eve was that Cain became in part a relief from the anxiety attached to the fears of loneliness. It was probably (name removed by moderator)erceptable to her that he was serving that purpose. Cain responded to that purpose as unconscious of it as well. But it did defile him nonetheless and that unconscious purpose put smoke on the mirror that he used to see himself. It is also significant that the fear that gave him purpose was the fear that his mother had of losing the image of God. So his purpose at it’s deepest was to replace the image of God. This is what Adam lost and only Adam could restore having been the only person to experience it in it’s primary form. So, Cain goes off and begins the first cultures without the clarity offered by Adam’s primary experience of innocence and relationship with God. On top of the unconscious desire for feminine approval, this distorts the true meaning of man and God. This distortion is what is seen in the myths of matriarchal religions. Notice it’s need for feminine attention and think of what Christ said about the Pharisees wearing bigger phalactories and praying in public fasting for attention, taking the seats next to the host. He called their Jerusalem Babylon. Think too, keeping in mind that need for attention, of the fact that it was those cultures that recorded their histories in writing making them look like the oldest religions. It makes sense that cultures distorted by Cain’s need for feminine attention would write their histories down and Adam’s wouldn’t. They can claim now in the modern world that their is no evidence that the Judeo-Christian tradition is what it says it is according to the archeological record. Making Christians and Jews look like liars. That hidden agenda has a combination lock.
No offense to our protestant brothers but that need for feminine attention can be seen as a cause of protestantism as well.
I think this view of history shows how Catholicism would be mistaken for the whore of babylon and explains why many would want it to be as well. mark, I have no problem with answering questions about these ideas so feel free.
Questions will prevent me from babbling on about something I’m only interested in too.
The pathology I’ve described so far is the pathology of idolatry. It’s a pathology created when the mother is made into an idol. It’s the basic pattern that descibes the pathology of all personality disorders that manifest from maternal care. That includes almost all possible personality disorders from childhood that aren’t chemical imbalances.
Cain became an idol to his mother and his mother became an idol to him. The sin of Eve was that Cain became in part a relief from the anxiety attached to the fears of loneliness. It was probably (name removed by moderator)erceptable to her that he was serving that purpose. Cain responded to that purpose as unconscious of it as well. But it did defile him nonetheless and that unconscious purpose put smoke on the mirror that he used to see himself. It is also significant that the fear that gave him purpose was the fear that his mother had of losing the image of God. So his purpose at it’s deepest was to replace the image of God. This is what Adam lost and only Adam could restore having been the only person to experience it in it’s primary form. So, Cain goes off and begins the first cultures without the clarity offered by Adam’s primary experience of innocence and relationship with God. On top of the unconscious desire for feminine approval, this distorts the true meaning of man and God. This distortion is what is seen in the myths of matriarchal religions. Notice it’s need for feminine attention and think of what Christ said about the Pharisees wearing bigger phalactories and praying in public fasting for attention, taking the seats next to the host. He called their Jerusalem Babylon. Think too, keeping in mind that need for attention, of the fact that it was those cultures that recorded their histories in writing making them look like the oldest religions. It makes sense that cultures distorted by Cain’s need for feminine attention would write their histories down and Adam’s wouldn’t. They can claim now in the modern world that their is no evidence that the Judeo-Christian tradition is what it says it is according to the archeological record. Making Christians and Jews look like liars. That hidden agenda has a combination lock.
No offense to our protestant brothers but that need for feminine attention can be seen as a cause of protestantism as well.
I think this view of history shows how Catholicism would be mistaken for the whore of babylon and explains why many would want it to be as well. mark, I have no problem with answering questions about these ideas so feel free.
Questions will prevent me from babbling on about something I’m only interested in too.
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Norm
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I think if Luther knew what a mess he started he would fall dead in his tracks. God have mercy on his soul. :yawn: Sleep on that one.
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Exporter
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**MACCABEES, wrote: “**Actually it is perfectly right to say we worship and adore Mary.
However the worship and adoration we give Mary is different than what we give to God alone. It is ok because she is our Mediatrix of all Graces and Co-redemptrix”
You have said because she is our Mediatrix of all Graces we can/should WORSHIP Mary.
My questions are: 1. If by an act of God Mary was removed from Heaven could we still recieve the Graces of God?
However the worship and adoration we give Mary is different than what we give to God alone. It is ok because she is our Mediatrix of all Graces and Co-redemptrix”
You have said because she is our Mediatrix of all Graces we can/should WORSHIP Mary.
My questions are: 1. If by an act of God Mary was removed from Heaven could we still recieve the Graces of God?
- You have said that it is perfectly right to worship Mary. Have you read the Catechism lately? How is the Worship of Mary “different” from Worshiping God?
- If you actually Worship Mary, what can she do for you?
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Norm
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doubtingsoul
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As “The” Church of Christ was the “denomination” I was raised under, I can give a little info here. The Church of Christ was founded in 1906, but it was an attempt to restore “lost” tradition, and to base their beliefs/forms of worship on the precise words of the Bible and nothing else. Hence their complete abhorance over musical instruments in church (in fact, most COC’s have it written into their lease that no musical instrument is allowed in the building) because, according to them, the Bible says to worship by singing but not by playing the piano (Psalms is ignored for this purpose).
The result of all this is a hate-riddled, exclusionist community (I speak only of my experience with it, I have met other COC’s since who are much more level-headed than this) in which all outsiders are automatically going to hell. Incidentally, the two groups most hated (again, in my experience) are Catholics (of course) and, rather surprisingly, Baptists.
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