Whore of Babylon

[catholic2]

Benadam:

Hmmm well, you can probably find visible possibilities that fit the pattern figured in revelation. St Paul, I think it was in Thessaloinians 2, Said the religion of anti-christ isn’t visible. What I scratch my chin over now is how would Satan hide a religion? I think in the unconscious motivations within man that stem from history supressed or repressed. Yep and it keeps on poking it’s big ugly heads out. What is within man he is currently unconscious of that can develope into religious deception?

I for one wouldn’t spiritualize this too much, perhaps revealing my limitations. Extrapolating the hidden anti-christ into collective man would stretch my thoughts to the breaking point. Rather, as in 2nd Thessalonians, the good in collective man is what is keeping the anti-christ from emerging, and this positive quality will experience an exodus from earth in some huge spiritual event… in the twinkling of an eye; then the anti-christ will emerge.

 

[Benadam]

catholic2:

I for one wouldn’t spiritualize this too much, perhaps revealing my limitations. Extrapolating the hidden anti-christ into collective man would stretch my thoughts to the breaking point. Rather, as in 2nd Thessalonians, the good in collective man is what is keeping the anti-christ from emerging, and this positive quality will experience an exodus from earth in some huge spiritual event… in the twinkling of an eye; then the anti-christ will emerge.

Catholic2 you cracked me upwith that. you wouldn’t what?.. you love it…you know you do…

 

[boppysbud]

Doubtingsoul, I too was brought up in the “church of Christ” sect. I know all about the depth of exclussionism and hatred present in that denomination. My entire family has disowned me for “leaving Christ and his only real church”. My stepmother died a couple of weeks ago and the only reason I knew was that I read about it in the on-line newspaper. No one spoke to me to tell me, I was not invited to the funeral, nor was I mentioned among the survivors in the obituary. It was if I didn"t even exist.

doubtingsoul:

As “The” Church of Christ was the “denomination” I was raised under, I can give a little info here. The Church of Christ was founded in 1906, but it was an attempt to restore “lost” tradition, and to base their beliefs/forms of worship on the precise words of the Bible and nothing else. Hence their complete abhorance over musical instruments in church (in fact, most COC’s have it written into their lease that no musical instrument is allowed in the building) because, according to them, the Bible says to worship by singing but not by playing the piano (Psalms is ignored for this purpose).

The result of all this is a hate-riddled, exclusionist community (I speak only of my experience with it, I have met other COC’s since who are much more level-headed than this) in which all outsiders are automatically going to hell. Incidentally, the two groups most hated (again, in my experience) are Catholics (of course) and, rather surprisingly, Baptists.

I have found that most campbellites base their faith and practice more on doing the opposite from Catholics than on the Bible.

Have you ever seen the cofC published book called “Catholicism Against Itself”, it is a lavishly illustrated 2 volume set full of the lies that www.bible.ca prints and other things that are true but shocking to the fundamentalist mindset like Benedictines making a liquor.

I really have no respect for the “world’s only Christians”, not after the treatment I have recieved at the hands of my “christian” family, whose views represent the majority of their sect. It almost makes me not want to call myself Christian and just call myself Catholic.

 

[romano]

Théodred:

Temple Judaism.

Go to the top of the class.

 

[Maccabees]

Church Militant:

I know that we discussed your propensity for shock tactics before and I frankly would never do things the way you do as it leads to too much hassle and controversy about things which we are not bound by the church to even believe. Namely the very apparitions that these terms came from.
.

Shock tactics? I am using the same tactics the church itself has used virtually all the popes in this century used it. Vatican 2 used it. The catechism used it. I think catholics should be familiar with these terms if not it reflects poor knowledge heck half the catholics I know don’t know what transubstantiation is that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t discuss it because the average American catholic doesn’t have a knowledge of the current catechism. If its in the cathechism it is worthy to be discussed that why its in there its not there to hide from protestants its their to proclaim to protestants. You seem ashamed of the church’s teachings. Look if you want to be hide what the church teaches or become a James White or a cafeteria catholic picking and choosing your doctrine find go ahead many catholics are looking for an official pronouncement on contraception as they same the word of the popes are not good enough the words of the catechism are not good enough. They are trying to either hide the fact theta contraception is intrinsically evil or they are a cafeteria catholic which ultimately is what you are becoming when you deny Marina doctrine that the church uses on a regular basis. The church used the term Virgin Mary for 500 years before it was infallibly declared so of course the church takes thins slowly that doesn’t mean you have are free to reject that Mary is ever Virgin or that contraception is intrinsically evil. There are many catholics beliefs few are infallibly declared and many takes hundreds or thousands of years to be done usually when there is some need to clarify these issues. The church would not use these terms so of then if they didn’t believe it much like the church used the Term Mary ever virgin for ages before it was declared.
The basic tenets of this belief has already been set before in the work of the fathers heck catholic answers defend these positions.
This not an apparition which is optional to believe in. WE don;t have Guadeloupe in the catechism. We have things of the regular fide in the catechism what the catholic church believes as a regular rule of faith just because contraception, homosexuality abortion are not infallibly declared and neither some fo the Marian titles it doesn’t matter we believe these things.

May I suggest reading some catholic answers.

Read the entire article here

catholic.com/thisrock/1992/9211fea3.asp

**CRI’s Attack on Mary: Part IV **

By "Father Mateo"
The Christian Research Institute (CRI) next turns its guns on the titles “coredemptrix” and “mediatrix,” with which Catholics sometimes invoke Mary. “Coredemptrix” implies that Mary cooperated with her Son in redeeming mankind; “mediatrix” means that, in subordination to Christ, she promotes our access to the Father. (As CRI notes, “mediatrix” may include also the title “dispensatrix,” which implies that Mary has a role to play in the distribution of graces of redemption to us, her children.) .

CRI quotes Catholic theologian Ludwig Ott: " ‘Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it done to me according to thy word.’ The Incarnation of the Son of God and the redemption of mankind by the vicarious atonement of Christ were dependent on her assent.83

CRI writes, "Nowhere does the Bible teach such an inflated conception of Mary’s role - as though the fate of all humanity was hanging on her choice. God determined before time began that he would redeem the world through the death of his Son…. No human being could have stood in the way of this; to hold otherwise would mean denying the central biblical doctrine of God’s sovereignty" (CRl’s emphasis).84

I fear that the writer has made up his mind and does not wish to be bothered by the facts - in this case, by the fact that Catholics, whose belief is as Ott describes it, nevertheless affirm God’s supreme sovereignty. Another fact which CRI ignores is human freedom, a biblical doctrine as well as a fact of our daily experience. Reconciling God’s supreme dominion with human freedom, while doing violence to neither, is one of theology’s knottiest problems - certainly not one to be solved in this article. Yet the Bible does teach that we are free and that we can throw a wrench into the engine of God’s eternal plans - in fact, we often have. Man cannot ultimately defeat God’s purposes, but by God’s permission and providence man can certainly sabotage them temporarily.

ITs really sad when a catholic takes the postion of CRI and not catholic answers.

 

[romano]

Hey guys! My Bible says BABYLON. It doesn’t say ROME. It says BABYLON. Get it?

 

[Maccabees]

romano:

Hey guys! My Bible says BABYLON. It doesn’t say ROME. It says BABYLON. Get it?

That would be present day Iraq. Actually their are a bunch of new theories on Iraq now that relate to the whore of Babylon in the christian bookstores. Its ironic that nothing like this existed in this in the 1980’s but hey america gets involved there and presto its biblical propehcy.
Most of what passess for Biblical prophecy in the fundie circles is actually newspaper theology.

 

[lefthand36]

Church Militant:

Maccabees, says

I don’t think that these titles have been approved by the church. If not then you may be treading on very thin ice. I do not like either term because they are misleading by their very nature…as is your discussion of the word studies about worship. I understand what all this means and insofar as it goes I essentially agree, but I hope that the terms “Mediatrix of all Graces and Co-redemptrix” are not the terms they choose to define these concepts.

Pax vobiscum

I agree. I believe this is what I was trying to get across, but you explained it better than I could have.

God bless,

 

[lefthand36]

MaggieOH:

Hi Brenda,

The de fide doctrine does not put Mary on the same level of Jesus as Redeemer. What it does is recognize the necessity for Mary’s fiat “Let it be done unto me according to thy word”. Without that fiat the Messiah could not come into the world and the Redemption could not have happened.

I hope this helps you to have a little bit better understanding of the meaning of this term.

Maggie

Maggie,

I agree with this statement, and that does help a lot. But the Messiah would and could come into this world without anyone’s help, if He chose to do so, but He gives us a choice. Human cooperation and our free will means that God forces nothing on us. God can move mountains, but I do not believe that He forces His teachings upon us, so I am thankful that God did choose a person so worthy of such a great honor. And thank goodness, that she, with the guiding of the Holy Spirit, so willingly accepted the invitation.

The Lutheran church does not believe that we have free will. I begin to strongly disagree with this, because I believe that God has given us the choice of deciding if we are to believe in Him or not. Thank goodness I am a believer.

Thanks,

 

[Gratias_Grace]

Maranatha:

So you’re saying they are not one in the same? You’re saying the Pope is not the Bishop of Rome?

I know Rome has seven hills and I know what it says in the Bible. I don’t try to run and hide with semantics.

We won’t convince anyone with those tactics.

NO!

I was saying that a RC (a Roman Catholic) has to follow what is thaught in the Vatican (VC) where the pope as the leader of the whole Catholic Church sits. The Church of St. Peter is buildt upon the grave of St. Peter. That Church is in the Vatican City outside the seven hills of Rome.

That the pope also is the bishop of Rome doesn’t change that he governs the whole Catholic Church from the Vatican City.

G.Grace

 

[Maranatha]

nordskoven:

The Whore of Babylon is the European Union with it’s monetary unit, the EURO, featuring the goddess Europa riding Zeus as a red bull. Was that so hard? Look up the Club of Rome, the fulfillment of Daniel’s revived Roman Empire and the mystery of the city on seven hills.

I don’t know about that but I believe their refusal to accept their Christian heritage and insistence on building their federation on secular foundations portents it’s short lifespan.

 

[Gratias_Grace]

nordskoven:

The Whore of Babylon is the European Union with it’s monetary unit, the EURO, featuring the goddess Europa riding Zeus as a red bull. Was that so hard? Look up the Club of Rome, the fulfillment of Daniel’s revived Roman Empire and the mystery of the city on seven hills.

Well, some mean it is Western Culture with America as the cultures center:
home.pages.at/stargazers/endworld/fin-signs/greatcity.htm

Another webpage think it’s Iraq.
blessedquietness.com/journal/prophecy/babylon.htm

Well, at least it’s good that the catholic church is not alone about being atributed to be a whore. The whore can now be the Western culture, the European Union, America, Iraq …

Pick your own country!

Jesus founded the Catholic Church on Peter (Kepha) and in His Church we are safe if we try the best we can to live in a way that pleases God!

:bible1: “…your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. 33But strive first for the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.lm 34‘So do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will bring worries of its own. Today’s trouble is enough for today” (Mat 6:32-34). :bible1:

**Blessings **

G.Grace

 

[Maccabees]

lefthand36:

I agree. I believe this is what I was trying to get across, but you explained it better than I could have.

God bless,

WEll that’s just it when they put these terms in official documents for all to see they are not merely thinking of a concept they are explaining what the church already believes. The Pope, Vatican 2, and the cathechism are not a mere theologian ponderig the possibility of limbo and thus is not presented in such documents but this is the regular fide of the church the regular teaching of the church is the cathechims, the Pope and his encynicals. This is like saying women’s ordination is an option because it hasn’t been infalliably declared not to be.Look when all the catholic teachings agree on something its regular teaching and there is no need for that. This comes down to cafeterai catholcism and the rebels looking for everything in the cathechism to be infalliably defined they often are not. I find it really sad you guys have chosen to be cafeteria catholics and have chosen to side with the CRI instead of Catholic Answers. To be a true catholic you should accept all that is in the cathechism. I contend you still have a protestant mindset.

 

[Maccabees]

**

**Finally, in a discourse given before his election as Pope, we have a good commentary on the mind of him who is now Pope. Cardinal Pacelli said that our souls were "redeemed by the blood and sorrows of the Redeemer *and ***

by those of His Virgin Mother"[26](javascript:OpenNote(202,0,26)-an excellent description of a joint price, but hardly applicable to mere receptivity. In closing, let us remark on the very fact that the Holy Father, knowing full well that the great majority of theologians have understood so many earlier texts (both his own and those of his predecessors) as teaching Mary’s immediate co-operation in the objective redemption, still chose to add further weight to earlier testimonies. It is one of the gravest duties of the Holy See to guard against errors in doctrine, Now if this teaching were an error, it would be a monstrous error indeed. As Father Lennerz says well: "We are not dealing in this matter with some pious ‘Mariological’ question, but with the nature and essence of the very work of our redemption."[27](javascript:OpenNote(202,0,27) How then could the Holy See, if its words were being so seriously perverted, and that by not just a few, but by the vast majority of theologians, not only refrain for so many years from issuing any correction, but instead, continue to heap text upon text to support the “error”?

To find out why Mary as CoReedmer and Mediatrix is important to our cathlic faith read catholicculture.org/docs/most/getwork.cfm?worknum=202

Stop trying to hide the fact we know that Mary plays a role in our salvation.

**

 

[Theodred]

That Church is in the Vatican City outside the seven hills of Rome.

True, the Vatican is on the wrong side of the river.

It doesn’t matter, though. There’s another city on seven hills: Jerusalem!

 

[mark_a]

Maccabees:

That would be present day Iraq. Actually their are a bunch of new theories on Iraq now that relate to the whore of Babylon in the christian bookstores. Its ironic that nothing like this existed in this in the 1980’s but hey america gets involved there and presto its biblical propehcy.
Most of what passess for Biblical prophecy in the fundie circles is actually newspaper theology.

I have heard while listening to Dr. Tony Evans the same things about Iraq, some biblical referances to “tar” (oil), the EU, etc. All the while he is saying “listen to me”, “note what I am telling you” etc., implying that he has the inside scoop on end times theology.

 

[Gratias_Grace]

Théodred:

There’s another city on seven hills: Jerusalem!

Yes!
members.aol.com/johnprh/whore2.html#dis

 

[mark_a]

Benadam:

Questions will prevent me from babbling on about something I’m only interested in too.

Please babble more.

 

[MaggieOH]

whilst reading through the posts again, I had some really wild thoughts on the discussion that has been taking place.

1. Another way to regard Mary as co-redemptrix is to think about doubles tennis. In doubles there are two players that make the team. In mixed doubles it is a man and a woman (if that can be verified) together. They co-operate with one another in order to win the match. Therefore, if you think of Jesus and Mary as a mixed doubles in tennis, you have two people, a Mother and Son co-operating with one another to bring about the Redemption of the World. Whilst Jesus suffered and died on the Cross, Mary suffered with Him and she was there at the foot of the Cross. When God sent the angel to her, Mary co-operated with God’s plan of salvation by saying yes.
2. If the tennis analogy does not grab you then try this point . If you want to think in terms of the modern world, then who has the most power today? The USA or Washington. Right? So who is accused of being the lackey of Washington? Tony Blair in England and John Howard in Australia. Forget about the seven hills for a moment. Who has been doing the bidding of George Bush? Tony Blair.

See, problem solved. London is the whore of Babylon.

Maggie

 

[Maccabees]

Your are wild Maggie Oh

To me it comes down to this its been taught the entire 20 th century in many church documents, cathechism, popes, Theologian Ludwig Ott is ok with it, Bishop Sheen was Ok with it, Catholic Answers is ok with it, EWTN is ok with it, all the Popes in the 20th century are ok with it, Respected and Orthodox Father Most is ok with it, etc etc. But a brand new catholic is not ok with this?
I think I will choose the church who knows what she is talking about over a neophite catholic who is in denial that she has protestant barriers that are blocking her understanding of catholcism.

Just look who attacks this doctrine using the cathechism James White, Dave Hunt and all same anti-catholic apologist who hate the church. These guys are never right so I will go against them if your on their side and your catholic I ask you why are you agreeing with these folks?