Whore of Babylon

[Maccabees]

vern humphrey:

The “Beast” is fairly clearly the Roman Emperor. Revelation was written from Patmos (a prison island) during Domitian’s Persecution. Domitian was the second Emperor to officially persecute Christians - - Nero was the first.

Nero committed suicide, and there was a legend he would come back (the legend of Nero Revividus.) Domitian was like Nero in many ways (especially to Christians!)

If you look at the description of the Beast, he has a healed wound in the throat – Nero committed suicide by stabbing himself in the throat. The second beast makes the Nero-Domitian link pretty clear.

John uses the Pythagorian system to arrive at “the number oif the beast.” Irenaeus, who got his information from Polycarp, (who knew John) says John reckons according to the Greek (Pythagorian) system.

In ancient times, there were no separate symbols for numbers – letters were used instead. A man’s name could be read as a number, and Pythagoras had devised a system to translate the numbers into something that would supposedly tell you about the man.

The Greek form of Nero’s name would yield “666” when written in Hebrew. In the Pythathagorian system, the number 6 is “incomplete, imperfect, bad.” The triple repitition – “bad, bad, bad” is applied to Nero.

Now, we can’t PROVE John meant Nero (and Domitian) but in the earliest latin versions of Revelation, the number is given as “616” – which is what you get from the Latin version of Nero’s name.

Yeah but this interpretation while it makes sense does not attack the catholic church every protestant exegete must in the end disprove the catholic church ergo lets spin it into anti-catholcism from Luther to Jack T. Chick we are the whore of Babylon. This is a major reason why no protestant exegesis of Revelation makes sense.

 

[Maccabees]

Benadam:

Hi Mark,

No. The fact that the Catholic Church didn’t reject truth from sources outside of it’s own heritage qualifies it to those not broad minded to tell the difference between Truth and it’s imitation. This makes the Church the whore in that she looks idolatrous to them.

Also the fact that the feminine spirit it’s a symbol of is a personal projection of Eve. The fall disordered the quality or the proper orientation of human bonds. The maternal care given to Cain was tainted with the fears and consequent needs of his mother. The Mother child bond becomes the primary bond because it is not part of the freedom of self determination lost by sin. Since this bond is the precursor to reforming the self determined bond of Holy Matrimony it must be re-established in perfection in order that the bond of marriage and all bonds between persons can be made perfect. This is the importance of Mary’s perfection and sinless womb. The materal care that Cain recieved made Eve and her son an archetype of the male female bond. It is the source of the Whore riding the beast. The oedipus complex as well. So Mary becomes the New Woman who re-establishes that bond between man and woman by virtue of a sinless womb and perfect human love to her son. This recognition of Mary’s role in salvation history makes catholicism look pagan too. It is unfortunately this maternal dynamic has been expressed in the cultures that sprouted from Cain but not as the whore riding a beast but as nature worshipped by man. These cultures are limited to the created world in their understanding of God. They can rise to a pantheistic view of God at best. There’s alot more to the story if you wish. in case i’m blabbing on I give it a rest .

You think the Bible speaks of Mary such blasphemy you know Revelation only speaks of secular Israel and not Mary.
Jesus really didn’t like his mother.
Or so I have been told as he addressed her as woman.

Really this is the junk I hear.

 

[Benadam]

Maccabees:

You think the Bible speaks of Mary such blasphemy you know Revelation only speaks of secular Israel and not Mary.
Jesus really didn’t like his mother.
Or so I have been told as he addressed her as woman.

Really this is the junk I hear.

Maccabees,

for an instant I was frozen in the contrast of what I have come to know of you and those remarks You’re right that is just the tone it takes usually. It’s the pitiable sound a voice makes as gravity is experienced when a persons feet hang in the air rather than when it presses one’s feet frimly to the ground.

 

[MarkAnthonyCozy]

It gets even worse. A friend of mine passed me a book. It begins with the attempt to prove the absolute belief that the King James Version of the bible presents the exact precise words of God for English speaking people.

Then the presentation on how any manuscripts used other than the Textus Receptus used for the KJV have been corrupted by Satan and his church.

Then the presentation of Satan as the Beast, the Roman Catholic Church as the Whore of Babylon, and the Pope as the anti-Christ

Lastly the image of the beast that is to be worshiped is that of the Virgin Mary.

This is sinisterly evil stuff. They claim that the Jesus preached by the Roman Catholic Church is a counterfeit. It can easily pull anyone who doesn’t know Jesus and partake of the Eucharist.

Actually this is Satan’s attack on the Church. This stategy was used by Hitler, Islam, Marx, etc. De-humanize your enemies, paint them as demons or possessed by demons. Claim that the miracles wrought by God working through the Church are actually of Beelzebub. Read Matthew Chapter 12.

Once the Pharisees accused Jesus of working for Beelzebub he condemmed them for blasphemy of the Holy Spirit “in this world and the world to come.” Mt 12:32 From this point on Jesus began speaking in parables.

Though this presentation that I found ends with the Blessed Mary, this is really were Satan begins his attack. With Mary. This is how he has attacked the Church throughout the centuries.

Satan attacked mankind through the woman, Eve, the mother of all living.

God our Father, through His Son our Lord Jesus Christ, by the power of the Holy Spirit reclaimed us as His own through the woman, Mary, the mother of those who keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Rev 12:17

 

[Lorarose]

Just for specifics, Nero’s title in Greek (the language of Revelation) was Neron Caesar, which in Hebrew is NRWN QSR. In Latin, it is of course Nero Caesar or NRW QSR. In Hebrew, N=50, thus the discrepancy in 666/616.

More excellent info!
I’m learning so much on this thread.
I’m still trying to absorb Benadem’s post about Eve/Cain/the Whore/ and Mary. - excellent post!

 

[boppysbud]

Actually the [www.bible.ca site](http://www.bible.ca site) is published by members of “THE” Church of Christ, a fundamentalist Protestant denomination that claims it is not a denomination, just the one and only church that Christ has.

Funny the “church of Christ” denomination never existed before 1906, so Christ never had a church before 1906.

 

[Church_Militant]

Paris Blues:

Why on earth would people call the Church that? That’s pathetic! Maybe I should join a non-Catholic group and ask them why they think that, eh?

Paris I applaud your courage but the answer is right here on this home page:
catholic.com/library/Anti_Catholic_Whoppers.asp
catholic.com/library/Hunting_the_Whore_of_Babylon.asp
catholic.com/library/Is_Catholicism_Pagan.asp

This is where to find the whole load of these tracts.
catholic.com/library/anti_catholicism.asp
http://pages.prodigy.net/rogerlori1/emoticons/AN878.gif

Pax vobiscum,

 

[MaggieOH]

oudave:

Hi

Rev 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

This is the scripture that some get it from. I don’t believe in the rapture since it is not anywhere in scripture that I know of but this is where they get it.
The woman being the catholic church, seven mountains being that Rome is called the city that sits on seven mountains or hills.

At the time that the Book of Revelation it could just as likely be a reference to those Jews who were in league with the pagans because of their desire to get rid of those pesky Christians. The Jews were pretty good at stirring up trouble for the Christians at that time ya know.

Another more historical possibility is that the whore of Babylon is Nero’s wife who apparently did lead a secret life as a whore.

In either case the terminology points to pagan Rome and not Christian Rome.

So Woodrow and Dave Hunt have failed to impress and Jack Chick does not have a clue.

Maggie

 

[MaggieOH]

Yaegel:

She could be both Rome and Jerusalem. 1Cor 6.16 "Do you not know that he who joins himself to a prostitute becomes one body with her. For,as it is written, ‘The two shall become one’ ".

I like that answer. It goes a lot of hidden double meaning to what John was trying to convey in the Book of Revelation.

Maggie

 

[MaggieOH]

Benadam:

how about this. the seven hills are the seven continents.

It is a worlwide religion. Idolatry. Unconscious love of things mistakenly attached to people.

In our current time it represents those who prefer materialism over God

Maggie

 

[MaggieOH]

Maccabees:

Yeah but this interpretation while it makes sense does not attack the catholic church every protestant exegete must in the end disprove the catholic church ergo lets spin it into anti-catholcism from Luther to Jack T. Chick we are the whore of Babylon. This is a major reason why no protestant exegesis of Revelation makes sense.

Then you should have a look at the exegesis of the late William Barclay on the Book of Revelation. It does make sense from the Protestant (not fundamentalist/dispensationalist) point of view. His work is very scholarly and he makes several propositions on each of the issues. He even admits to Mary as the Woman even though he also dismisses that possibility. His commentary is very scholarly and gives an excellent historical background, or at least it is a background that I can believe and feel comfortable reading it.

Maggie

 

[MaggieOH]

hlgomez:

And they also claim that the anti-Christ (666) is the Pope.

Ok then, let’s examine what this “666” does. It says in the Book of Revelation 13:5-6; “The beast was given a mouth uttering proud boasts and blasphemies, and it was given authority to act for forty-two months. It opened its mouth to utter blasphemies against God, blaspheming his name and his dwelling and those who dwell in heaven.”

Now, looking at the verse above, can these Protestants claiming that the Pope is 666 prove that the present Pope, and all popes in history, ever uttered blasphemies and boasts against God?

Pio

Do you want to have some fun and find the Old Testament person to whom 666 also refers

MaggieOH

 

[Malachias111]

A page that covers the “Whore of Babylon” nonsense and has some surprising information about it all: kensmen.com/catholic/endtimes.html

 

[edwinG]

Maranatha:

Why is it that non-Catholic Christians fill their dogma with hatred toward Catholics but Catholics don’t reciprocate?

This is not true for this non catholic. I have been watching a story about Elizabeth 1 of England. Period about 1500’s/1603 roughly. Well they certainly conspired , killed and fought wars on a national level over this issue and it seems this issue is the root cause of all the cowboys in Ireland.
Clearly we should all just love one another. Hating is the tool of the evil one and cannot do Christ’s work.
Christ be with you
walk in love
edwinG

 

[MaggieOH]

Malachias111:

A page that covers the “Whore of Babylon” nonsense and has some surprising information about it all: kensmen.com/catholic/endtimes.html

I am not sure about surprising information because the owner of the site lost his way. There is quite a bit of propaganda and I think that there needs to be some caution exercised with regard to the material that is available on it. Some of the information is good… but… there are problems.

MaggieOH

 

[Maccabees]

MaggieOH:

Then you should have a look at the exegesis of the late William Barclay on the Book of Revelation. It does make sense from the Protestant (not fundamentalist/dispensationalist) point of view. His work is very scholarly and he makes several propositions on each of the issues. He even admits to Mary as the Woman even though he also dismisses that possibility. His commentary is very scholarly and gives an excellent historical background, or at least it is a background that I can believe and feel comfortable reading it.

Maggie

I like the Navarre series better besides it admits for the possibility of Mary being the Mother without a retraction and does not give me the nonsense that the catholic church is the whore of Babylon. SInce Barclay is protestant he has to reject Mary and he has to mention the silly Catholic Church is the whore of Babylon theory even when it makes no sense today.
Barclay may be a good protestant scholar but catholics can do better the Navarre series and now the Ignatius Commentary Series do a better job of explaining the difficult passages in the New Testament.

 

[Maccabees]

edwinG:

This is not true for this non catholic. I have been watching a story about Elizabeth 1 of England. Period about 1500’s/1603 roughly. Well they certainly conspired , killed and fought wars on a national level over this issue and it seems this issue is the root cause of all the cowboys in Ireland.
Clearly we should all just love one another. Hating is the tool of the evil one and cannot do Christ’s work.
Christ be with you
walk in love
edwinG

Oh you beleive everything Hollywood says about Christianity?
Look hollywood hates catholcism and there are several problems with this movie and history the catholic league printed this long ago.
This and old movie so I don’t have it maybe its on the net.
Anyway far more catholics were killed and persecuted in England than the other way around. The movies proclaim Elizabeth as something she is not. She killed more catholics than Mary killed protestants yet we have Bloody Mary and Eliazeth is known as the Virgin Queen who replaced the Virgin Queen of Heaven in the religions of England. Few People notice that exchange of devotion. And most historians think this whole Virgin Queen stuff is pure hogwash to build the myth of this very human figure to replace the adoration of the Mother of God pretty sick stuff.
Of course Elizabeth not only hated catholics she killed Puritans as well so she was an equal opporutnity religious persecutor with royalty like that no wonder the religious people of England fled to find America. But hey if you want to believe Hollywood go ahead and get hoodwinked. England rewrote history as the victim of catholcism when it was the other way around.
The situation in Ireland exists because the protestnat treated Irish catholics like dogs kinda like how protestant slave holders treated their black slaves. You wonder why their is resentment here?

 

[MarkAnthonyCozy]

Maccabees:

And most historians think this whole Virgin Queen stuff is pure hogwash to build the myth of this very human figure to replace the adoration of the Mother of God pretty sick stuff.
Of course Elizabeth not only hated catholics she killed Puritans as well so she was an equal opporutnity religious persecutor with royalty like that no wonder the religious people of England fled to find America. But hey if you want to believe Hollywood go ahead and get hoodwinked. England rewrote history as the victim of catholcism when it was the other way around.
The situation in Ireland exists because the protestnat treated Irish catholics like dogs kinda like how protestant slave holders treated their black slaves. You wonder why their is resentment here?

Careful my friend, we are to honor and venerate our Blessed Mother. Our adoration is for God and God alone.

History is written by the victors. Just think if U.S. history were to be written by Native Americans and African Americans. What a different perspective that would be.

 

[Benadam]

MaggieOH:

In our current time it represents those who prefer materialism over God

Maggie

Dear Maggie, prodigious apologist of note. The love of things mistakenly attached to a person rather than the things loved is the sublime and insidious form of idolatry today.

It’s sad when humanity can’t distinguish his relationship with things from his relationship with himself.

 

[Maccabees]

MarkAnthonyCozy:

Careful my friend, we are to honor and venerate our Blessed Mother. Our adoration is for God and God alone.

History is written by the victors. Just think if U.S. history were to be written by Native Americans and African Americans. What a different perspective that would be.

Actually it is perfectly right to say we worship and adore Mary.
However the worship and adoration we give Mary is different than what we give to God alone. It is ok because she is our Mediatrix of all Graces and Co-redemptrix. All this language is incomfortable for some catholics due to defensiveness because of Protestant criticism. But the Saints talked to Mary in such terms. Such as Saint Ligourt. English is not the best theological language here as the term adororation and worhsip don’t have levels of difference. The church has used the terms hyperdulia to indicate a worship and adoration given to the saints in common language one would use reverence and devotion to not give the impression of idolatry but when the saints works are translated you will find terms such as worship and adoration because reverence and decotion don;t quite capture the level the saints are trying to get at. There are a lot of symantics due to the English language being limited. The other terms used latria is to indicate a worship and adoration given to God alone such as the sacrifice of the mass and God as Trinity. What I am getting at is when you read that catholics worship and adore and yes pray to Mary those are all theological correct words to use. We don’t only ask Mary to pray for us we do pray to Mary as the word pray can convey the word meaning petetition for advocay etc.
Since English is such a bad theological language it seems we can go overbaord on Mary even catholic accuse other catholics such as Ligiouri and heck myself as going overboard but we are not it’s just the English language does not due Mary justice and there are not exact theological language that descirbes the level of worship we give her. Hyperdulia is the best way to describe this but the you have to explain that. But I concede there is worship and adoration we do give to God alone although it wouldn’t be out of line to say we worship and adore may and pray to her given the theological distinctions I have discussed.