Who's Going to Pay the Bills?: Purpose-Driven Coronavirus Business Shutdowns Cause Economic Catastrophe

[Erikaspirit16]

A lot of countries have gotten it right. Taiwan is a shining example. S. Korea, Finland, Singapore, Germany…they’ve all done a good job. So has New Zealand. 5 million people, 1,472 confirmed cases, only 9 deaths (death rate of 1.3%). Every case since April 1 has been traced. Yesterday they had only 1 new case, and Jacinda told NZ to go from level 4 alert to level 3. “We want to be cautious and careful…” [Meanwhile Georgia–with twice the population–had 745 new confirmed cases yesterday and their reaction was "Let’s party!] Now how did NZ do it? Luck? Small size? Nope. Planning. Amazing concept, right? But they had a “NZ Influenza Pandemic Plan,” 181 pages long and revised in Aug. 2017. https://www.health.govt.nz/system/f...demic-plan-framework-action-2nd-edn-aug17.pdf So when they realized what was happening in China, Jacinda didn’t go golfing or hold rallies, she pushed the button to activate the plan. Magic. Leadership counts.

 

[JoeFreedom]

Some thoughts:
Some states are arbitrarily making decisions, and while they have the right according to that decision at the time, they are most definitely, in my opinion (which is shared by many other people) that their governor’s decisions are arbitrary, irrational, over-reactionary, and unreasonable, and not based on safety at all, but more so on a display of control and power to indicate that they have the power and they are the ones doing “something”.

I think it is wrong to point to any other amount of deaths, as the comparison is apples to oranges. One can easily make the argument we are doing fantastic a job because the number of heart disease deaths in American is around 1,000,000 per year (or ~86,000 per month).

I would agree Trump is doing what he can with an unprecedented situation.

I would finally agree with the studies that are coming out over and over again that show the death rate is more likely well under 1% (some studies have shown as low as 0.1%), and that is a good thing. While the virus is highly transmissible, it is not the doomsday death sentence so many thought it was.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

The decisions made by the various states are being constantly reviewed, updated, and revised and conditions warrant. No one in public service wants to make arbitrary decisions, although it can look arbitrary to those on the outside who do not agree with the specific decisions made. Despite the popular memes, these leaders do not crave power for the sake of exercising power. The majority of them use the power they have to the best of their ability to benefit their constituents as well as they can.

I would not agree that Trump has done the best he could in an unprecedented situation, although he is doing slightly better now than he was at first when he was slow to acknowledge the need for serious action. (I do not count his “travel ban” since that was low-hanging fruit and did not inconvenience any voters.)

Even if the death rate is only 1%, that would still be over 3 million Americans if everyone becomes infected (which is projected). That would be four times as many dead as the terrible 1918 pandemic, when the population of the US was 1/3 of what it is now. That makes this pandemic 12 times as serious as the worst pandemic the US has see in a century.

No one is calling this a doomsday death sentence, but it is serious enough to justify a temporary partial slowdown (not even a shutdown) of business.

 

[JoeFreedom]

No one in public service wants to make arbitrary decisions

Come on. This is just nonsense. No one (this is an absolute) wants (and you know their intentions?) to make arbitrary decisions (please explain all the arbitrary decisions being made).

I’m not going to bother responding to you anymore because you are so far off from anything that we could ever agree on.

No one is calling this a doomsday death sentence

Yes, yes, they have. Here and in the media. Consistently.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

I’m not going to bother responding to you anymore

Thank you!

 

[Erikaspirit16]

the studies that are coming out over and over again

This ranks up there with Trump’s “Some people say…” Notice I gave links. Feel free to do the same. Otherwise it’s just your opinion.

in my opinion (which is shared by many other people)

And of course “many other people” is a small minority–20%. Not my opinion, a poll: Poll Finds Large Majority Of Americans Support COVID-19 Shutdown : Coronavirus Updates : NPR

Let’s put that 20% in perspective: How many Americans believe in UFOs? 16.7% think they’ve seen one. 47% believe in aliens. 39% think aliens have visited the earth in the past. 18% believe in alien abduction. “I have a hunch” as Trump would say, that there a large overlap between those who think the pandemic lockdown is too strict and those who believe in alien abduction. https://www.huffpost.com/entry/new-...ericans-believe-in_b_59824c11e4b03d0624b0abe4

their governor’s decisions are arbitrary, irrational, over-reactionary, and unreasonable

Well, that’s your opinion. I’m not sure what your alternative would be: a three-month debate over this point of trivia or that point of trivia, during which hundreds of thousands of people would die? Now of course they could have thought all this out beforehand, as NZ did, and had a plan in the drawer ready to go. Probably some of them had something, but I’m guessing none of them had a thorough plan. They should have–then all this “Should we open liquor stores?” stuff could have been ironed out with more careful thought. But if they didn’t, they had to make quick decisions. And revising those decisions the next day or the day after would just sow more confusion and doubt.

I think it is wrong to point to any other amount of deaths, as the comparison is apples to oranges.

I assume you’re talking about the covid-19 deaths being compared to Vietnam deaths (which as of yesterday were fewer than the covid-19 deaths). You may think it’s wrong. I think it’s right. VN tore the country apart for years and years. But people (you?) are being very nonchalant about 59,000+ covid -19 deaths. I really don’t get that. Esp. since I’m going to make the assumption that the same people who are rabidly anti-abortion are the ones saying, “Hey, it’s only 59,000+ deaths! What’s the big deal?”

 

[AlNg]

“Hey, it’s only 59,000+ deaths! What’s the big deal?”

But are these deaths due to covid-19 and not some other underlying cause? And does quarantine and shutting down businesses actually defeat covid-19 or does it just prolong it? Why are deaths higher in some Catholic countries but not as high in Protestant Sweden which does not have lockdowns?

 

[Erikaspirit16]

Now if anyone here actually wants to learn something, read “The Great Influenza” (1918-20) by John Barry, written in 1994. There are parallels all through the book–lack of supplies, rumors, quack cures, total lack of federal leadership (Do you know what pronouncements Pres. Wilson made about the influenze? None. Not a peep) etc.

But Barry wrote an “Afterward” in 2017, and he had some interesting conclusions. They’re worth taking seriously because he spent 7 years writing his book, and he is still considered something of an expert despite not being a doctor–he even has some recent interviews on YouTube. So here are his conclusions:

“So the final lesson of 1918, a simple one yet one most difficult to execute, is that those who occupy positions of authority must lessen the panic that can alienate all within a society…Those in authority must retain the public’s trust. The way to do that is to distort nothing, to put the best face on nothing, to try to manipulate no one.”

 

[Erikaspirit16]

But are these deaths due to covid-19 and not some other underlying cause?

Yes. The total is actually much, much higher. For example the W. Post had an article yesterday comparing deaths in a recent week with the same week last year–tens of thousands of more deaths. A nursing home near me had several patients die of covid-19 (they matched the symptoms perfecdtly) but the families didn’t want the dead bodies tested because they felt the tests could be of more using tetsing people who were still alive. So these people will be counted as dying of something else. And if someone dies of pneumonia that was due to their weakened condition from the virus, isn’t that a legitimate covid-19 death? Nitpick all you want. Try to explain away 59,000+ deaths.

And does quarantine and shutting down businesses actually defeat covid-19 or does it just prolong it?

Read a book. “Defeat it” as in “cure it”? of course not. But if I’m in my house alone I can neither get it nor spread it. If it doesn’t spread, it runs its course (two weeks or so per person) and that’s the end of it if it can’t find new hosts.

Why are deaths higher in some Catholic countries but not as high in Protestant Sweden which does not have lockdowns?

I’m not sure the virus targets certain religions. But the idea that Sweden has a “low” death rate is fallacious (I heard Rush L. make the comparison to Michigan, but of course that’s apples and organges.) Compare apples to apples: Sweden to its neighbors Finland, Denmark, and Norway–all with similar numbers of people, similar cultures, similar demographic makeup. And all the neighbors have strict lockdowns. As of last Sat. here are the numbers of deaths per million people: Sweden–no lockdown, 187.5; Denmark–lockdown, 65.98; Norway–lockdown, 34.4; Finland–lockdown, 27.1. In other words, Sweden’s death rate is anywhere from 2+ to almost 7 TIMES its neighbors.

As for Italy, Spain, etc. the virus was spreading long before they realized it–probably 3-4 weeks. By the time they realized what was going on, huge numbers had been infected. And then it became a matter of testing–like the US, they didn’t have enough tests. They tested only those who showed serious symptoms and / or were in essential jobs or vulnerable living conditions. So by the time they got tested, they were for the most part seriously ill. Thus a high death rate. Sweden was able to test more people at the beginning of the illness and quarantine them before they spread it. So a lower death rate. It not BECAUSE OF the lack of lockdown, it’s DESPITE the lack of lockdown.

 

[JoeFreedom]

are being very nonchalant about 59,000

I AM NOT BEING NONCHALANT. Please do not assume I some anti-life jerk. This is what irks me about this. People are being pitted against each other and called out like we LOVE that people are dying. Yet when I say that, it goes unheard. I’m not sure why you don’t understand that comparing virus deaths to war deaths is not the same, especially when I used the example of comparing it to heart attack deaths to illustrate my point.

If you want to say that covid is now so much worse because covid has killed 59000 people and that is more than Vietnam, then I can easily say that covid is not much worse because covid has killed 59000 people but so far, much greater deaths (~100000) have resulted from heart attacks.

 

[JoeFreedom]

A nursing home near me had several patients die of covid-19 (they matched the symptoms perfecdtly) but the families didn’t want the dead bodies tested because they felt the tests could be of more using tetsing people who were still alive.

I’m going to use your logic against you. So a few people near you is now indicative of the entire population? Post links. Show proof. Just your opinion.

 

[Erikaspirit16]

why you don’t understand that comparing virus deaths to war deaths is not the same, especially when I used the example of comparing it to heart attack deaths to illustrate my point.

Sorry, I don’t. I don’t get your point. At all. Are you saying that a year’s worth of heart disease deaths is gong to be more than a year’s worth of covid-19 deaths in the US? Probably. But so what? Enlighten me.

As for you in particular being nonchalant about 59,000+, please read my post–and respond to what I actually wrote, not what you THINK I wrote. I wrote:

But people (you?) are being very nonchalant about 59,000+ covid -19 deaths.

Notice the “you” in parentheses with a question mark. I didn’t say YOU were being nonchalant…it was a question. But yes, a lot of people ARE nonchalant. People are out demonstrating because they can’t get a haircut. But no one’s out protesting because 59,000+ people have died. Frankly, I don’t get that.

I’m going to use your logic against you. So a few people near you is now indicative of the entire population? Post links. Show proof. Just your opinion.

Sure. No problem. Happy to help. But one note before I give some links: the word “prove” has become a loaded word in the last few years. Quite often people demand a mathematical level of proof rather than simply “all the evidence shows X, so X is probably true.” I can’t “prove” anything in a mathematical sense. But there’s plenty of evidence.

Start with this: “Sears does not know for sure if his mother died of COVID-19. He declined the test offered by the nursing home. The staff had said they were very sure she had the disease caused by SARS-CoV-2. He did not think getting her tested would be the right call. She was already so sick, he said, that a diagnosis would not change her condition. And he knew tests were limited at the nursing home. At the time, it was one of the last available tests.” And here’s the link: 'It's scary how quick:' Losing a loved one, likely to COVID-19, in 9 hours

Please note of a couple things. First, nursing homes / assisted living facilities are very reluctant to be named as a place where covid-19 is present or has caused deaths. This is for obvious reasons: It makes them look bad and hurts future business. Second, Maryland Gov. Hogan ordered today that all of these homes and facilities MUST test residents and staff and report to state authorities.

Failure to count COVID-19 nursing home deaths could dramatically skew US numbers

How accurate is the US coronavirus death count? Some experts say it's off by 'tens of thousands' - ABC News

State Reporting of Cases and Deaths Due to COVID-19 in Long-Term Care Facilities | KFF

https://www.modernhealthcare.com/safety-quality/weve-been-ignored-nursing-homes-plead-more-testing

A search on “nursing home covid-19 deaths no testing” = 211 million hits.

 

[JoeFreedom]

Let me try to reexplain my point. This is your quote below:

As of last night (April 27), the US had 988,197 confirmed cases and 56,521 deaths. Very close to Vietnam war deaths (58,220) and in less than two months, not spread over 13-14 years. Clearly, at least to rational observers, things are not going well.

You clearly made a comparison that the 56000 deaths in Vietnam was spread out over 13 years to the 59000 deaths from covid in the last two months, concluding as a result of the comparison that “things are not going well”.

By making that comparison, you have compared deaths from two completely unrelated causes. Therefore, if you want to make that conclusion based on that comparison, then I can do the same. Which I did. Let me substitute:

As of last night (April 27), the US had 988,197 confirmed cases and 56,521 deaths. Not even close to heart disease deaths (100,000) and in less than two months, Clearly, at least to rational observers, things are going well.

But thank you for not including me in being non-chalant. Any death from covid is tragic, as it is a loss of human life.

The problem with any of us providing articles is that there are just as many articles out there with other doctors and other studies showing the opposite information. And I do not care to make the effort of collecting article links my main job. I already have two of those. My job and my family. I read and hear and watch and get information, but I do not record it, bookmark it or mentally note it for future preparedness for online debates. Not a good use of my time.

 

[Erikaspirit16]

Now I recognize some of my old right-wing friends here. So let me inject a few more actual facts into the discussion. First up, that, as Trump said numerous times he was “way ahead of anybody else…I stopped people from China very early—very, very early.” Really?

Jan. 30–WHO declares “a public health emergency.”
Jan. 31 Trump announced travel restrictions from China–coming into effect Feb. 2 and incomplete (US citizens were apparently immune, as were their families, etc. and were exempt from the ban).
Jan. 31 Italy suspended flights from China.
Jan. 31-Feb. 1: 46 (!) countries imposed travel restrictions on China that came into effect BEFORE the US restrictions.
Feb. 2–US restrictions came into effect. 12 other countries imposed restrictions at the same time.

So was Trump “very, very early”? Absolutely not. He was behind 46 other countries. At the time the US restrictions came into effect, there were 58 countries with restrictions. Did the US lead the pack? No–it was in the rear of the pack. And of course the US restrictions had all these loopholes (as do current bans on travel from Mexico–it doesn’t include US citizens. Why? Are they immune?)

 

[Erikaspirit16]

As of last night (April 27), the US had 988,197 confirmed cases and 56,521 deaths. Not even close to heart disease deaths (100,000) and in less than two months, Clearly, at least to rational observers, things are going well.

OK, now I get your point, I think… It’s similar (? again–question!!!) to the argument that “Well, we have about 60,000 deaths from the regular flu, so covid-19 isn’t so special.”

But we do all we can to reduce the number of deaths by other diseases, including the flu.

Most of the covid-19 deaths in the US were avoidable. If, instead of mocking the danger, Trump had actually started preparations, it would be a totally different story. And if you want to see what the different story looks like, have a look at Taiwan, S. Korea, Singapore, New Zealand, and even Germany. They all took it seriously from the very beginning. Some countries, like Taiwan and New Zealand already had pandemic plans in place. They mandated that hospitals have at least a month’s worth of supplies on hand. They turned out tests as fast as they could or bought them from Germany (WHO tests). They locked down things immediately. The US (Trump) did none of this. He went golfing and held rallies.

 

[JoeFreedom]

Okay, I’m out on the Trump thing and the entire issue itself because you and I do not see eye-to-eye, and I disagree with you 100% and I do not have it in me to go around on this issue as I have with others.

 

[1cthlctrth]

https://thespectator.info/2020/04/0...much-if-the-patient-goes-on-ventilator-video/
Hospitals have incentive to list deaths as covid-19 deaths, even if covid-19 has nothing to do with the death.

 

[Erikaspirit16]

Hospitals have incentive to list deaths as covid-19 deaths, even if covid-19 has nothing to do with the death.

A) This is old fake news–April 8.

B) Medicare pays more TREATING covid-19 patients. But–a BIG but–there is absolutely no evidence that hospitals are encouraging doctors to commit fraud or classify patients or deaths one way or the other. Up to the doctor.

As anyone connected to medicine knows, doctors and hospitals are reimbursed by insurers and Medicare/Medicaid based on the code they assign to a treatment/condition. I’m sure we’ve all had the experience of being billed for a lab test or x-ray because the doctor didn’t put the right code down. And, yes, there are built-in incentives: for example, doing two knee replacements at once would be cheaper than one a a time. So why do doctors want to do one at a time? They get paid more. But even the guy being interviewed by Laura didn’t think hospitals were intentionally defrauding the system by miscoding.

https://www.factcheck.org/2020/04/hospital-payments-and-the-covid-19-death-count/

 

[Erikaspirit16]

Okay, I’m out on the Trump thing and the entire issue itself because you and I do not see eye-to-eye, and I disagree with you 100% and I do not have it in me to go around on this issue as I have with others.

Thank you, I think! This is (and probably will be) the only time in history I have been lumped in with “leafbyniggle.” It makes me uneasy…

 

[Erikaspirit16]

"…a loose alliance of constitutional conservatives and economic boosters coalesced in opposition to the idea of masks…complained bitterly that an obligation to cover one’s nose and mouth was an unconstitutional affront to the principles of a free society…suspicion that profit was the real motive…At least one supervisor rose to question the science behind masks as a preventive public health measure, claiming that unemployment among recently demobilized soldiers was a more urgent problem…it was a question of the legitimacy of state power… "

That all sounds like the recent protests. But this is about 1918. Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.

The Anti-Mask League: lockdown protests draw parallels to 1918 pandemic | Coronavirus | The Guardian