Who's Going to Pay the Bills?: Purpose-Driven Coronavirus Business Shutdowns Cause Economic Catastrophe

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goout said:
But safety is not the end point. The end point is human dignity. And human beings are communal. So safety needs to take that into account, using common sense. Safety serves overall human dignity. If it didn’t, we’d all be forced to live in plastic bubbles for protection. And that’s not human life.
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Does 36m unemployed serve human dignity? (This is really closer to 50m when part time, gig and self employed workers are counted who are not eligible for unemployment compensation.) Do the massive increases in food bank lines serve human dignity? Is human dignity more likely to be found in being employed vs being on the dole?

This is a point commonly dismissed by the safety folks as we have constantly been assured that this is nothing to worry about, we’ll all be gainfully employed again.

At least you admit that safety is not the end point. Which implies that you might admit there is a tradeoff between economic viability and safety. Which would further imply that the question of whether we’ve gone too far with the lockdowns is a fair one to debate. IMO, we’ve gone too far for the structural damage to the economy to be easily undone. But I’d be happy to hear counterpoints from those who still believe the damage is minimal at most.
 
Zzyzx_Road said:
(This is really closer to 50m when part time, gig and self employed workers are counted who are not eligible for unemployment compensation.)
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Most all of those people now qualify for some form of unemployment or PPP. The rules have been relaxed to include many who under normal circumstances would not be eligible. For the short term, I have no issue with these people being able to draw unemployment. In the long term, when they can go back to work they should be required to. There are exceptions for some, but most should go back, my other thread didn’t fair so well regarding my feelings on that.
goout said:
Influenza and cigarette pandemics are not red herrings , they are direct comparisons to hazards the government has not wished to combat by controlling human choices and behavior.
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If you don’t think that the gov. has tried to control the cigarette pandemic, I am not certain where you have been. Restrictions on smoking have steadily increased in the past 20 years or so. Has there been a total ban, nope. Don’t know that there should be a total ban on cigarettes or much of anything for that matter.

If we want to stop all deaths, don’t stop at cigarettes and flu(don’t know how you can ban flu, kinda hard to lock up virus), lets include automobiles, bicycles, fast food, food additives, sodas, cell phones, computers, and on and on. Most anything can cause death in the right circumstances.
 
goout said:
If preventing death is really the priority, then ban cigarettes now , and let’s get serious about health.
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The current epidemic is a much more serious threat and is of a higher magnitude.
 
I feel your pain – as much as I can being a retired person who doesn’t have to work. My opinion is that we need to open the economy - NOW - and let folks work. People like me or those who are medically challenged can stay home. Working people can socially distance, wash their hands, wear masks, etc. I live in a neighborhood with a lot of young families – not able to be working and dying on the vine. We need to open the economy. You are in my prayers…
 
Zzyzx_Road said:
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goout:
But safety is not the end point. The end point is human dignity. And human beings are communal. So safety needs to take that into account, using common sense. Safety serves overall human dignity. If it didn’t, we’d all be forced to live in plastic bubbles for protection. And that’s not human life.
Click to expand...
Does 36m unemployed serve human dignity? (This is really closer to 50m when part time, gig and self employed workers are counted who are not eligible for unemployment compensation.) Do the massive increases in food bank lines serve human dignity? Is human dignity more likely to be found in being employed vs being on the dole?

This is a point commonly dismissed by the safety folks as we have constantly been assured that this is nothing to worry about, we’ll all be gainfully employed again.

At least you admit that safety is not the end point. Which implies that you might admit there is a tradeoff between economic viability and safety. Which would further imply that the question of whether we’ve gone too far with the lockdowns is a fair one to debate. IMO, we’ve gone too far for the structural damage to the economy to be easily undone. But I’d be happy to hear counterpoints from those who still believe the damage is minimal at most.
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I think you missed my point…
 
Zzyzx_Road said:
At least you admit that safety is not the end point. Which implies that you might admit there is a tradeoff between economic viability and safety. Which would further imply that the question of whether we’ve gone too far with the lockdowns is a fair one to debate. IMO, we’ve gone too far for the structural damage to the economy to be easily undone. But I’d be happy to hear counterpoints from those who still believe the damage is minimal at most.
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Im picturing a web comic of the London underground 1940 and someone like you screaming “we need to restart the economy!” While bombs thunder above.

We’ll come out when it’s safe. We can rebuild.
No matter how bad the damage is while there’s willing hands we can persevere.

After the rumbling stops.
 
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Anrakyr said:
We’ll come out when it’s safe. We can rebuild.
No matter how bad the damage is while there’s willing hands we can persevere.

After the rumbling stops.
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A terrible analogy. This isn’t a bombs and bullets matter. This is a job losses and businesses closing matter. But do insist on your analogy if it helps you sleep at night. Sure…

The economic damage is real. The payouts only go so far. The Fed can print money, but it can’t print the economy.


If your guideline is followed, it will take years to repair the damage done. Something you’re not willing to think about.

Something to consider:
Warren Buffett is normally one of the most bullish billionaires around. He’s normally there buying stuff when the markets hit bottom as it did in 2009. This time around he did no buying, only selling. That’s not a sign of optimism in the short term.


Your hero Dr Fauci is coming around to the idea that the economy needs to get going again, albeit with caution.


Even candidate Joe Biden thinks the recovery is a long way away. Though I don’t subscribe to his logic, I’ll include it here for your perusal.

 
1cthlctrth said:
State Governors execute business shutdowns and destroy lives, and then they pull “genius” moves like these:

'Recipe for Disaster': Democrat Governors Put COVID-19 Patients in Nursing Homes, Contributing to Thousands of Deaths.
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1cthlctrth said:
The concern now MUST BE:
Will the Governors wait too long to re-open the economy ?
Will too much damage already have been done?
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given the various state government shutdowns along w/ various give away pandemic programs, find a recent news item somewhat intriguing
Is the GOP right? Should states just declare bankruptcy?

As states shell out billions of dollars on unemployment and other responses to the coronavirus—and as business shutdowns and payroll and sales tax declines whack tax revenue—state budgets are being blown apart.

…To address this, many governors and economists are recommending that the federal government put emergency funding for the states into the next coronavirus response package. Some members of the GOP, however — including President Trump, Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, and Florida Sen. Rick Scott — have responded by saying that states should instead just “declare bankruptcy.”

Is this a smart idea?

No.

Forcing states to declare bankruptcy right now would have the same effect as forcing dozens of giant airlines, hotel chains, and other companies to declare bankruptcy — namely, triggering millions of additional layoffs as states are forced to cut spending and, thereby, radically worsening the country’s overall economic crisis.

Are Trump, McConnell, GOP Right to Say States Should Declare Bankruptcy
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government bankruptcy is an interesting sixty four trillion dollar question since POTUS actually has repeated prior business experience with the issue

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IOW the elephant in the room question that I wonder about is,… how would a majority of the general public benefit from a government bankruptcy???

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Trump’s Taj Mahal — the ‘8th wonder of the world’ — sold for pennies on the dollar

…The Trump Taj Mahal, the Atlantic City casino that the real estate mogul built for $1.2 billion in 1990, went for 4 cents on the dollar when it was sold in March. Documents filed with the Securities and Exchange Commission on Tuesday revealed the price that billionaire Carl Icahn got from Hard Rock International for the shuttered casino: $50 million. The sale was publicized at the time, though the purchase price wasn’t.

Trump's Taj Mahal — the '8th wonder of the world' — sold for pennies on the dollar - Chicago Tribune
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perhaps its just me,… but seems like we’re stuck between a rock and a hard place
 
toddy said:
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Anrakyr:
I am, but I won’t trade lives for money.
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Yes, simple life.

Just take a risk of slow down of casualties and second dip to keep the economy living. Scary.
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from the article:
Doctors at John Muir Medical Center in Walnut Creek say they have seen more deaths by suicide during this quarantine period than deaths from the COVID-19 virus.

The head of the trauma in the department believes mental health is suffering so much, it is time to end the shelter-in-place order.

“Personally I think it’s time,” said Dr. Mike deBoisblanc. “I think, originally, this (the shelter-in-place order) was put in place to flatten the curve and to make sure hospitals have the resources to take care of COVID patients.We have the current resources to do that and our other community health is suffering.”

The numbers are unprecedented, he said.

“We’ve never seen numbers like this, in such a short period of time,” he said. “I mean we’ve seen a year’s worth of suicide attempts in the last four weeks.”
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But sure, you go on pretending the economic damage doesn’t carry its own consequences that are up there with the virus itself.
 
Zzyzx_Road said:
But sure, you go on pretending the economic damage doesn’t carry its own consequences that are up there with the virus itself.
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Here’s the kicker. Cast your mind back too March 15th back when state of emergency was declared.
We had people like @gab123 say the following.

“The doctor simply posted the facts. Unfortunately one cannot trust the corporate media these days, so I stopped taking these “epidemics” too seriously.”

With distrust in the media/government so high, it was the perfect recipe for disaster.

All we had too do was sit tight for 14 days. If we had done that we wouldn’t be here two months later wondering how long we could have held out.
A pandemic denier here, a person who thinks “won’t happen too me” there. People broke quarantine time and again refusing to be patient.

So here we are, like child held in class longer until everyone settles down and listens.

You want to restart the economy? How about you get everyone you know to sit down.

The sooner everyone settles down the sooner we can get too work.
 
Anrakyr said:
So here we are, like child held in class longer until everyone settles down and listens.

You want to restart the economy? How about you get everyone you know to sit down.

The sooner everyone settles down the sooner we can get too work.
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Who made you our nanny?

Keep the economy down long enough and you will put a crimp into the hospital system that you and I rely on. They too need cash to operate, profit vs nonprofit doesn’t make a difference there, they need cash and most of them are short of the cash they need because the anticipated Covid-19 patient overload never happened. Not to mention sales tax collections have been way down and that is not good for the municipal entities that rely on them. With the attendant layoffs and cuts in services coming. But you go on believing the economic damage is still far too negligible to lift the lockdowns.

My point: concentrate resources to protect the vulnerable and the long term care facilities because that is where the majority of the load on the hospitals is coming from, but let the rest of us restart in measured steps as is starting to take place.

No one is required to participate in the reopened economy, that includes you. If you are still feeling vulnerable, by all means stay home and get your groceries, etc., delivered. But stop trying to force the rest of us to stay home. Let the people who want to participate in the economy evaluate their own risk level and find their own level of comfort.
 
The problem is when a crisis becomes politicized and the mass media drives you into hysteria and toilet paper hoarding. And it doesn’t help when pressure is put on doctors to list every death as COVID19 related. The good news is that the vast majority of people that get COVID19 only experience minor symptoms and fully recover. Though very unfortunate, only a tiny minority of those who get the virus actually die, much like a terrible case of the flu can kill the elderly and those with weak immune systems. No need to collapse economies and keep liquor stores open while shutting down places of worship as “non-essential”
 
Do what you have to do. When you see you will remember.

Lose of faith have caused suicides, not lock down.

When no more deaths in 14 days in my area then I can go out.
 
Defective immune systems and age cause death, not a virus… You can always find a secondary cause to shift the blame onto. The facts are that lockdown has not been good for physical and mental health of many people.
 
Not all 350 millions population lose faith and suicide.

Deaths and new cases maybe 10 times higher than the first start weeks of lockdown in my area. It is unacceptable while cure of T cells or immune system is unknown success yet. I think twice before going out while the front line workers must sacrifice their lives to save others.

When you see you will remember.
 
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toddy said:
Do what you have to do. When you see you will remember.

Lose of faith have caused suicides, not lock down.

When no more deaths in 14 days in my area then I can go out.
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You want stay inside, fine, no one is making you leave home. But allow the not vulnerable among us to try to bring the economy back.

Who’s going to pay for your support if the economy doesn’t come back? Where are you going to go when the local hospital closes for good? What happens when the local food banks are falling well short? These are practical questions that all sound like they are far away at the most today, but are in reality a lot closer than many will admit.

We have faith, sure, but we still have to live in the world.
 
Gab123 said:
No need to collapse economies and keep liquor stores open while shutting down places of worship as “non-essential”
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Wrong. It is best to keep all liquor stores open and to shut down school classrooms, shut down libraries, shut down bookstores, shut down beaches, shut down parks. And BTW, when a park opens, you can’t play ball, and you have to wear a mask. Shut down all gyms, shut down dine in restaurants, shut down most court operations, shut down evictions of problem tenants, shut down all churches.
It is essential that all liquor stores remain open so that people can get tipsy and forget about the incompetence of many of our elected officials.
 
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