Who's Going to Pay the Bills?: Purpose-Driven Coronavirus Business Shutdowns Cause Economic Catastrophe

[StudentMI]

The problem here is that the protesters — at least those prone to destructive behaviours — are very selective about when, where and why they decide to “protest.”

This was initially my problem with the protests. I could cite case after case of a white person killed by the cops with seemingly no mention, no protest. I viewed it as selective outrage. And to some extent it is. I would have loved to see protests over those cases, over the torture of a white disabled kid by three black youths that was livestreamed on the internet, over many things. There should have been riots in many cases.

That said the death of George Floyd was a tragedy and I can’t say the protests are a bad thing. I just wish those protesting were more consistent. I value consistency to the point I can respect a staunch communist more than someone more in line with my thinking if he’s inconsistent.

Perhaps some good will come of the protests, perhaps not. The riots and looting, no, no good will come out of that. I think Ice T was right. When it comes to the poor, no lives matter.

 

[HarryStotle]

HarryStotle:

The problem here is that the protesters — at least those prone to destructive behaviours — are very selective about when, where and why they decide to “protest.”

This was initially my problem with the protests. I could cite case after case of a white person killed by the cops with seemingly no mention, no protest. I viewed it as selective outrage. And to some extent it is. I would have loved to see protests over those cases, over the torture of a white disabled kid by three black youths that was livestreamed on the internet, over many things. There should have been riots in many cases.

That said the death of George Floyd was a tragedy and I can’t say the protests are a bad thing. I just wish those protesting were more consistent. I value consistency to the point I can respect a staunch communist more than someone more in line with my thinking if he’s inconsistent.

Perhaps some good will come of the protests, perhaps not. The riots and looting, no, no good will come out of that. I think Ice T was right. When it comes to the poor, no lives matter.

The problem is that reform of the current issues with policing isn’t the end being sought by the protestors. The ends are quite different from improving society or the institutions within it. The ends are political power and a complete overturning of the Constitutional Republic.

In fact, it very much smells of the wealthy elites using the grievances of the disenfranchised “minorities” to foment a revolt against the working classes in order to weaken and even devastate the current majority of hard working citizens.

Think about the words, actions and propaganda being spouted by large corporate interests, the media, celebrities, and leftist politicians? It is all about apportioning blame and drumming up grievances.

There is not a single vision or solution being proposed anywhere, just a constant litany of the “bad” being done by ordinary, hard-working people and families.

Who were shut down during the COVID lockdowns? Small businesses. Large corporate interests were allowed to remain open and even flourish in the absence of competition.

Is it a coincidence that the Washington Post promoted lockdowns of local small businesses and called out the “organizers” of lockdown protests while Amazon benefitted enormously from those lockdowns — given that Bezos owns both Amazon and WaPo? Or that Amazon banned the sale of a book that was critical of the lockdowns?

 

[StudentMI]

There is not a single vision or solution being proposed anywhere, just a constant litany of the “bad” being done by ordinary, hard-working people and families.

That is true for the most part. There are calls for ending the racially skewed results of the justice system, more so a general call for an end to racism. But there’s no clear message being conveyed about how to do that, what it might look like, etc. There are instead a bunch of separate matters all being conjoined under one banner entitled Black Lives Matter. Which is a shame because the issue of police reform and even fixing the justice system are noble goals as is ending racism, but how do we get there? We proclaim American society to be racist? Okay, then what? On another thread I shared some ideas about what I think the solution could be, trying to apply the principle of subsidiarity in view of the common good.

One thing that worries me about the protests and riots are that ordinary Americans are being told one side of the story (while the liberals are imbibing another one sided story) and this may drive them to call for actions that I really think would be counterproductive to the common good, such as calling in the army. Am I afraid of Trump being elected this year? I’m afraid of whoever wins.

 

[HarryStotle]

Am I afraid of Trump being elected this year? I’m afraid of whoever wins.

I am far more concerned about the anti-Trump progressive-left forces and what they will do if he retains office. Covid-19 and the current riots are merely a foretaste.

On the other hand if they win and he is ousted, all of their dirty work will go underground and remain unnoticed and unreported by the press for at least four years. What will become of the freedoms and rights of the common people then? The bureaucracies and social institutions will become far more socialist and tied to the CCP than they currently are and with a grip far more difficult to be broken.

At least with Trump, the fight will be out in the open with an attendant capacity to be scrutinized by the public at large. I hope he wins because an all-out battle against the progressive left is worth fighting and finally winning.

 

[HarryStotle]

The burden of an argument lies totally on the presenters. Tone, framing and point is on them. If they fail to properly present the thesis by using lax language in this case “what about” vs “I see a double standard” that’s not my problem.

This might be true if you have no interest in the actual truth but rather were preoccupied in taking up the mantle of one side of an argument against the other.

My position is one of purely seeking to know the truth — ergo, the burden is always on both sides (but on me primarily) to understand fully and completely the arguments from both sides.

Unfortunately, with your “vested interest” in one side you are justifying a possible aversion to knowing or seeing the truth by placing the burden of proving the truth to you on someone else’s shoulders. Why would you do that if you are honestly seeking the truth for its own sake? Wouldn’t you positively want to know if you held false beliefs?

Why would you willingly place the burden on someone else to prove it to you when you could fairly and openly look yourself?

I’ve always found the “burden of proof” argument puzzling.

Edit…

Just came across this.

https://www.citizenfreepress.com/br...asio-sends-cops-to-threaten-jews-not-to-pray/

Explain to me why rioters in the hundreds looting and pillaging are given the approval of DeBlasio while Hasidic Jews are threatened with arrest for praying together?

Whataboutism? Hasidic Jews being arrested for praying together but “whatabout” the mayor tacitly approving protesters and rioters assembling by the hundreds with the latter causing mayhem and destruction?

What “tone, framing and point” would you like me to make that isn’t obvious to any normal human being?

For the progressives like DeBlasio protesting trumps prayer? The latter has no standing but protesting gets a complete pass? Why would that be?

Another take…

De Blasio Broke Up a Jewish Funeral a Month Ago -- But Today Allows THOUSANDS at George Floyd Funeral Service in Brooklyn | The Gateway Pundit | by Jim Hoft

 

[HarryStotle]

But yes, I would argue that there is a huge difference between holding a pool party in the Ozarks with hundreds of people and having a protest against legalized murder with hundreds of people.

Right. No one got sick at the party and most had an enjoyable time.

The “peaceful” protests have become riotous in many cities with at least 4 killed — some brutally — and hundreds of millions of dollars in damage nationwide.

A small pool party vs nationwide protests triggering rioting and deaths. Huge difference.

 

[Erikaspirit16]

When Justine Damond was shot and killed by a Somali-born police officer in 2017 there was a lag of about 8 months before a decision was made to prosecute him for murder or manslaughter.

I could cite case after case of a white person killed by the cops with seemingly no mention, no protest. I viewed it as selective outrage.

HS–don’t worry, I’m not breaking my boycott of replying to your posts. But others have mentioned the same issue. So this is a general reply.

First, let’s look at the actual “facts” (how quaint, right?) about the shooting of Justine Damond.

The police were responding to two calls she made to 911 about either a rape or someone having noisy sex in public. The police arrived, she came to the passenger side window, which was down, and Mohamed Noor shot her in the chest. She died 20 minutes later.

So…the next day there was a vigil where she was shot. A few days later there was a protest march with several hundred people. At her funeral, there were over 1,000 people who again had a march. So “no protests”? No. There were.

So what happened to Noor? He was convicted of 3rd degree murder and manslaughter (the same Floyd’s killer was originally charged with). He was sentenced to 12 ½ years in prison. Justine’s family sued the city and won a settlement of $20 million.

Other results of the shooting:
The chief of police was fired within a week.
The mayor was defeated in the next election–in part because of this issue
The new police chief ordered that body cameras be on all the time (they were off during the incident).

Mohamed Noor: There was some debate as to whether he was an affirmative action hire and whether he had a shorter training period than other police. In any case, he had been a policeman for 21 months and had had 3 complaints about him–including holding a pistol to a driver’s head who had been stopped for a minor traffic violation. In a separate lawsuit, he was charged with assaulting a woman while on duty. During his training period two (2!!) psychiatrists and other training officers had raised issues about his “fitness for police duty.”

So why on earth was this guy set loose on the streets with a badge and a gun??? Same with the guy who killed Floyd. 18 complaints about him. And locally there are regular stories about police dismissed from one police force and getting hired by a neighboring town, where–big surprise–they are charged with everything from bribery, extortion, and rape.

But I think those that brought up the case are missing the point here. The tragedy of Justine Damond was not because she was a woman or because she was white. It was because there was a policeman on the force who should never have been there. He was aggressive and trigger happy. The Floyd incident was simply the last in a long series of incidents involving black victims. To pretend that race was not an issue is disingenuous at best. In one case (Justine) it was an individual aberration. In the other (Floyd) it was part of systemic problem.

 

[Erikaspirit16]

A separate issue is police killings in general. Let’s look at the rate of killings per 10 million people:

US–46.6
Canada- 9.7
Sweden- 6
France- 3.8
Australia- 1.7
Germany- 1.3
UK- 0.5 (!!!)
And, as you might expect, Denmark, Iceland, and Switzerland–none at all.

For years US police have regularly killed at least 1250 people a year. In 2017 they had a banner year–1,767 deaths. And, again, big surprise, blacks are killed 2 ½ times as often as whites. • Chart: Black Americans 2.5X More Likely Than Whites to Be Killed By Police | Statista

So is this a problem? It seems to me that if you presented these statistics to a reasonable man from Mars, he would say “This is crazy!” and he would be right. It seems to me there are at least two problems: 1) failure to weed out police applicants who are in it for the wrong reasons–sadism, power, hatred of various groups, etc. and 2) failure to train police property. You can see that in the current wave of protests–police pushing elderly men and young women violently to the ground (for no apparent reason, except that they could). Responding violently if a protester pushes them. Etc.

 

[Erikaspirit16]

Finally, let me return to my post #538, almost 3 weeks ago. At the time, posters were all worked up about the “evil” Saul Alinsky, etc. etc. So I offered a challenge (which of course no one has taken me up on): 10 quotations, some from Saul Alinsky, some from papal encyclicals (excluding those lefty Alinsky disciples Popes John XXII and Francis, just to make it fair). And of course no cheating–no looking the quotations up on Google. Scroll way, way down for answers!

So let’s go two quotations at a time:

1. …colonizing nations were sometimes concerned with nothing save their own interests, their own power and their own prestige; their departure left the economy of these countries in precarious imbalance—the one-crop economy, for example, which is at the mercy of sudden, wide-ranging fluctuations in market prices.
2. In certain regions a privileged minority enjoys the refinements of life, while the rest of the inhabitants, impoverished and disunited, “are deprived of almost all possibility of acting on their own initiative and responsibility, and often subsist in living and working conditions unworthy of the human person.”

Both of these are pretty Socialist stuff, right? “concerned with nothing save their own interests…” “privileged minority enjoys the refinements of life…” Sounds like class warfare. But both are from that notorious left-wing pope, Paul VI, in Populorum Progessio, March 26, 1967. Yup. That’s the Catholic Church talking, not Alinsky. Miss these? Let’s try two more tomorrow.

 

[JoeFreedom]

But neither is repeated police brutality, racism, and legalized murder.

I wish I had DVR’ed the numbers for this. But if my memory serves me correctly:
10,000,000 arrested in the US last year.
~1,100 died as a result of the arrest.
41 of those were unarmed
14 of those unarmed were white.
9 of those unarmed were black.
6 of the 9 shootings were unjustified and the police went to jail.
3 were justified and the cops were acquitted.

3…
THREE.
That is NOT systemic racism.
That is NOT a rampant problem of racist cops.

Get your facts straight.

And what say you about the rampant killing of cops? 157 in 2019.

Law Enforcement Line of Duty Deaths in 2019

Some of those were black.
Some were women.
Must be rampant hatred of black and women cops. Defund the society!

 

[Vico]

…

There are three physical outcomes from catching a disease:

• death
• permanent damage
• temporary damage.

The damage is multi-factored at least social, economic, and physical, but could also be destructive psychologically and spiritually.

 

[Erikaspirit16]

I wish I had DVR’ed the numbers for this.

Joe, I’ve got great news for you! There is this marvelous new invention called the Internet, and within seconds you can find out virtually anything. Go for it!

1,100 died as a result of the arrest.

You’re in the money on this one–1,098 people in the US were killed by police in 2019.

https://mappingpoliceviolence.org ( a lot of other good statistics too–like Buffalo, with 50% non-white population and 0 (zero) people killed by police 2013-2016; Orlando, same population, 42% non-white, 13 killed by police in same period…don’t you wonder why?)

The Wash. Post gives a slightly different number: 1,004. Why are the numbers different? Because no federal authority collects data! It’s up to private organizations to piece together data. And different organizations tally the numbers differently–for example, the Wash. Post only counts killings by police who are on duty and shoot someone (vs. choking, tasers, etc.) Does it make any sense that no official agency is even keeping track? The FBI had some hit or miss numbers, and in late 2019 they tried to be more systematic, but “The FBI director at the time [earlier], James Comey, called the lack of comprehensive national data “unacceptable” and “embarrassing”.” Yes, it is.

41 of those were unarmed
14 of those unarmed were white.
9 of those unarmed were black.

Ah, the sweet scent of Fox News and Hannity! I can smell it from here. Well, the numbers quoted by a guest on Hannity were close to what you say–10 unarmed black + 20 unarmed white. But the guest used the Wash. Post method–shooting only, and on-duty police only. And the numbers were updated to 15 black + 25 white later. And of course we’re only taking about DEATHS here. It’s estimated that for every three people the police shoot, only one dies (bad shots?). So the problem is probably 3x the size.

Get your facts straight.

I’d love to, but as you can see, facts are elusive about this subject.

And what say you about the rampant killing of cops? 157 in 2019.

Well, we seem to have different data here. Did you actually READ your source (ODMP)?
Sure, many have the cause of death as “gunfire.” But there are a lot of “struck by vehicle,” “heart attack,” “9/11 related cancer,” “automobile crash,” “drowned,” “duty-related illness,” etc. It seems to me you’re comparing apples (police killed by bad guys) to oranges (police who died on the job–of anything).

The National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund [Law Enforcement Facts - National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund] says there were 135 police “killed in the line of duty” in 2019. Hardly “rampant killing.”

 

[Erikaspirit16]

part 2–

But if you want to compare, let’s look at Canada–I couldn’t find recent data, but from 1961- 2009 (almost 50 years…) 133 policemen were killed in the line of duty. So between 2-3 a year. Multiply by 10 to compare to US population and you get 20-30 a year; a long way from 135. Now why would that be?

That is NOT systemic racism.

Well, if being black makes you 2.5 times more apt to be killed by police, I’d call that systematic racism. Some studies have said it’s not, other studies have said it is. This is a very political issue, and I suspect that skews research on both sides. One factor apparently no one has studied is the number of police stops. So, for example, if police are 2.5 times as likely to stop a black driver as a white driver, it would make sense that they also shoot 2.5 times as many blacks.

I have personal experience with this one. I am white, but I made the mistake of driving a 1993 Toyota. The police pulled me over on a deserted road at midnight. “What’s wrong, officer?” Now the policeman realized that although I was driving an older car, I was an elderly white person. “Your license plate light is out.” “Really? Do you mind if I get out and see?” So I got out and saw…nothing wrong with the light at all. He was simply stopping older cars…now who would generally drive older cars? Poor folks…blacks, Hispanics… Racial profiling? Absolutely.

But I think you’re missing my point. Obviously (?) police shooting civilians and civilians shooting police are both bad things. No one is arguing that they aren’t. But my question is this: Why does the US have a disproportionately high number of police shootings compared to other developed countries? (to go back–US = 46.6 per 10 million, UK = 0.5 per 10 million) Why did Buffalo have 0 police shootings and Orlando (same population, remember, and Buffalo has 8% more blacks) had 13 in the same period of time? Aren’t you just a teensy bit curious about these types of discrepancies?

 

[Erikaspirit16]

Good morning Vietnam!

Again, let me return to my post #538, almost 3 weeks ago. At the time, posters were all worked up about the “evil” Saul Alinsky, etc. etc. So I offered a challenge (which of course no one has taken me up on): 10 quotations, some from Saul Alinsky, some from papal encyclicals (excluding those lefty Alinsky disciples Popes John XXII and Francis, just to make it fair). And of course no cheating–no looking the quotations up on Google. Scroll down for answers!

So let’s go two quotations at a time, today #3 and 4:

1. If you respect the dignity of the individual you are working with, then his desires, not yours; his values, not yours; his ways of working and fighting, not yours; his choice of leadership, not yours; his programs, not yours, are important and must be followed; except if his programs violate the high values of a free and open society.
2. The times call for coordinated planning of projects and programs, which are much more effective than occasional efforts promoted by individual goodwill.

So we’ve got some tough ones today…the first one talks about “the dignity of the individual” and preaches humility–you shouldn’t assume you know how to help them, you should ask them how they want to be helped. And then there’s that bit about “the high values of a free and open society.” And the next quotation advocates opposition to endless posts I have seen here–people saying that individual charity (“occasional efforts promoted by individual goodwill”) is so, so much better than organized gov. welfare. And here we have a call for “coordinated planning of projects and programs.” Wow! Sounds like central gov. Socialism to me. But let’s see—

So who talks about individual dignity, humility, and the “high values of a free and open society”? Saul Alinsky, of course. Who is all for “coordinated planning and projects and programs” rather than “occasional efforts promoted by individual goodwill”? That well known Socialist Pope Paul VI in Populorum Progressio, March 26, 1967. Good Catholic teaching–from both.

 

[1cthlctrth]

Evidently, these doctors are now against shutdowns:

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/05/health/health-care-open-letter-protests-coronavirus-trnd/index.html

 

[Socrates92]

I would call that a silver lining.

 

[1cthlctrth]

That is NOT systemic racism.
That is NOT a rampant problem of racist cops.

You are correct. Especially when coupled with the fact that children with absent fathers are 15 times more likely to end up in prison, and:
Even when factors such as income, race, and parent involvement were held constant, fatherless children—especially boys—are twice as likely to wind up in prison later in life. They are more prone to aggression, more likely to drop out of high school, and are more susceptible to negative influences. Given those tendencies, it’s not hard to see how that can lead to higher levels of incarceration down the line.

https://owlcation.com/social-sciences/Psychological-Effects-On-Men-Growing-Up-Without-A-Father

And, blacks have the misfortune that they are more than 2.5 times more likely than whites to grow up fatherless.

KIDS COUNT Data Center from the Annie E. Casey Foundation

36 Shocking Statistics on Fatherless Homes | Life is Beautiful

In 2019, 19 unarmed whites and only 10 unarmed blacks were killed by police (The leftist Washington Post then upped it to 15 after their numbers were being widely reported) , and more than half were attacking the police just prior to be killed.

What exposes this so-called movement as nothing but a dangerous anarchist mob, more than when and how they act, is when they fail to protest and actually remain silent when even more black lives are at stake.

The fact that one police officer is allegedly a murderer doesn’t mean they need to cower in fear and allow rioters to burn down an entire city, harm innocent people, and destroy the remaining businesses not shut down by the coronavirus lockdown. Where are these big and strong police ordered to show force by dictatorial mayors and governors when it comes to dealing with actual violent criminals? Why is it that they only seem to arrest family-oriented people trying to hold prayer services or open a business, but somehow a gathering of well over 10 people to burn down a store is not met with swift justice and deterrent?

According to the Washington Post’s database on police shootings, 17 unarmed African-Americans were killed by police in 2018. Let’s just assume the unlikely assumption that all 17 were unjustified in the mold of the choking death of George Floyd. That accounts for just 0.002% of the 7,407 black homicide victims that year, according to the FBI’s Uniform Crime Report, the overwhelming majority of whom were killed by black criminals, not white criminals or police. In cases where the races of both the victim and offender were known, a staggering 88.9% of black homicide victims were murdered by black criminals.
https://www.conservativereview.com/...floyd-7000-black-homicide-victims-every-year/

 

[1cthlctrth]

Socialism

Quod Apostolici Muneris: Leo XIII on Socialism.

For, while the socialists would destroy the “right” of property, the Church, with much greater wisdom and good sense, recognizes the inequality among men, who are born with different powers of body and mind, inequality in actual possession, also, and holds that the right of property and of ownership, which springs from nature itself, must not be touched and stands inviolate.
“The foundation of this society rests first of all in the indissoluble union of man and wife according to the necessity of natural law, and is completed in the mutual rights and duties of parents and children. You know also that the doctrines of socialism strive almost completely to dissolve this union.”

Does Catholicism Support Socialism? | Catholic Answers Q&A

No one can be at the same time a good Catholic and a true socialist (Pius XI’s Q uadragesimo Anno , 120).
The Church has rejected the totalitarian and atheistic ideologies associated in modem times with “communism” or “socialism” ( Catechism , 2425).
Pope Leo XIII’s Rerum Novarum explicitly rejects several main tenants of socialism.

Socialism severely curtails rights to private property. The Church, on the other hand, upholds the individual’s right to private property ( Catechism , 2401).

Socialism goes against the 10th Commandment, “You shall not covet your neighbor’s goods.”

Socialism was a catastrophe in Venezuela, Soviet Union, Cuba, North Korea, Nicaragua…

In the Summa Theologica, St. Thomas Aquinas identified private property as important to maintain order in a society.
It is lawful for man to possess property. Every man is more careful to procure what is for himself alone than that which is common to many.
Aquinas concludes, “The ownership of possessions is not contrary to the natural law, but an addition thereto devised by human reason.”
Socialism treats family as the ultimate inequality, so it replaces family with The State. Socialism squashes religion. Socialism increases poverty.
(source: Trent Horn’s book, “Can A Catholic Be a Socialist?”)

 

[phaster]

The Floyd incident was simply the last in a long series of incidents involving black victims. To pretend that race was not an issue is disingenuous at best.

if ya think about it the root cause of conflict is economic AND the pressure is not just felt among blacks

consider an old investors saying "capitalism without bankruptcy is like Catholicism without Hell" this is understood to be markets work best and remain sustainable when participants have a healthy fear of loss. It shouldn’t be the role of the Fed or the government to eradicate it (sadly what now exists is lots of crony capitalism)

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on the other side there exists the human desire for wealth AND the ultimate evil (in this case) IMHO is the prosperity theology

https://www.ft.com/content/3990ce66-60a6-11e9-b285-3acd5d43599e

https://www.npr.org/2016/08/03/488513585/how-positive-thinking-prosperity-gospel-define-donald-trumps-faith-outlook

thought I’d point this out because in black communities the message is clear

Too Many Black Churches Preach the Gospel of Greed - NYTimes.com

and its also reflected in the bling music and “religious” culture

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Preachers of L.A. is a hot mess and I hope it is canceled soon.

First, the show is chock full of bad doctrine. From the spinning rims (in 2013? Really?) to the mansions and pinky rings, these prosperity pastors are wrongly conflating salvation with material wealth and then blaming critics for noticing it, saying, , “You see the glory, but you don’t know my story!” Well, whose fault is that?

[THE SPIRITUAL LIFE] ‘Preachers of L.A.’ Misses the Point • EBONY

looking at the big picture as I see things

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actually money mismanagement (i.e. debt AND the prosperity gospel) is the root cause of all kinds of problems

until people realize there is a cultural problem of unlimited wants and only a finite amount of needed stuff,… there will be human conflict

 

[phaster]

^^^

PS FWIW

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The prosperity gospel will not save you, and neither will Trump.

Try hard, find God, get rich

The prosperity gospel, a strain of Christian belief that links faith, positive thinking, and material wealth, is finding a foothold in American politics with the rise of President Trump

…“[Trump’s backers] don’t care how he made his money, they don’t care what he does with his money,” said author and journalist Sally Quinn. “They admire him for the fact that he has made all of his money and that he has never given up. He’s brought himself to the top, and somehow if he can do it — it’s like the power of positive thinking — he’s telling them they can do it, too.”

The prosperity gospel gains a foothold in U.S. politics, panel says – Harvard Gazette