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Barbkw
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And your explanation of Jesus’ words, "Kepha do you love Me more than these (other Apostles sitting here with us)?Yes. The triple affirmation to atone for the triple denial. But that is for another thread.
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Mickey
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In the Greek, He uses the three different forms of the word “love” in this passage (the English does not differentiate)…but it is significant. Do a google search. It is quite interesting. Or start a new thread.
Furthermore, St John is always referred to as the one whom Jesus loved. Does this mean He did not love the others as much? No.
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Byzman
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I dont think any Catholic denies this. But what about the rest who abandoned him, save John? Were they restored? What about Thomas who doubted? In fact, if we follow Scripture only Thomas was never blessed after He saw and touched Christ.Yes. The triple affirmation to atone for the triple denial. But that is for another thread.
Now I am in no way advocating that the rest of the Apostles werent restored(forgiven), but what I am saying is that Peter specifically is selected out of them all to be restored and chosen to lead.
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Mickey
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None of them verbally denied him three times in the public square. But of course we know that Christ predicted this and St Peter wept bitterly as an example to us that we can be forgiven through repentance. Judas did not repent. He fell into despair and hanged himself. We can be sure that all the Apostles repented.
I am not trying to change your mind. I am not trying to be contentious. When I was a Byzantine Catholic, I would have argued the same way as you do. But I see the fullness of truth in the Holy Orthodox understanding of these passages. You are free to disagree.
There is no doubt that St Peter was a spokesman for the Apostles. But they were all chosen to lead! One could just as easily say that St John was the leader because he did not abandon our Lord and was called “the one whom Jesus Christ loved.”
But we know that all the Apostles were chosen.
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Barbkw
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Jesus specifically asked Kepha about the quality and quantity of his love for Him.
After Peter answered in the affirmative (3 times) then Jesus gave Him a direct reordering toward the original mission He gave Kepha as His “rock” on which He would build His Church. Jesus gave him the keys to His Kingdom and now He tells him:
“Feed my lambs.” “Tend my sheep.” “Feed my sheep.”
Jesus’ actions with Kepha are similar to all owner / manager relationships when trust is shaken and then restored so that the original mission is completed.
And in effect, Kepha’s “sin” was one common to many who wish to provide service to others; he over promised and under delivered.
Yet Peter, was the only Apostle who had the initial courage to fight for Jesus in the garden and he was the only Apostle who followed Jesus after He was arrested. Upon receiving the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, he alone walked out into hostile surroundings and preached the first homily to the Jews concerning Jesus’ death and Resurrection.
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Barbkw
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Yes, all the Apostles were chosen to lead, but God the Father and God the Son also instituted a primary leader.
Abraham, primary. Moses, primary. David, primary. Jewish High Priest, primary.
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Mickey
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English translations for the word “love” in Scripture are inadequate. If we read the Greek, we see that there are three different meanings for the word, “love”.
Eros = Erotic. Strong feeling toward another. (there can be divine eros).
Philos = Love based on friendship between two people (on a human level).
Agape = Unconditional love. Selfless. Perfect. Sacrificial.
In Verse 15 Jesus uses “agapas” but St Peter responds with “philo”.
In Verse 16 Jesus uses “agapas” but St Peter responds with “philo”.
In verse 17 Jesus uses “phileis” and St Peter responds with “philo”
Christ uses the word which depicts perfect, sacrificial love, but St Peter could not comprehend and responds with “philo”. In verse 17, Christ changes the word from “agapas” to “phileis”. St Peter realizes that he was unable to comprehend and he is grieved.
The Gospel verses of St John chapter 21 vv15-17 have a twofold meaning. There is Christ’s triple affirmation restoring St Peter to his apostolic standing after the triple denial. And there is the teaching of perfect sacrificial love and St Peter’s inability to understand it at this time.
I’m sorry…but that is really legalistic. This is one of the many reasons that I came home to Holy Orthodoxy.
And St John was there at the Cross.
And St John was there at the Cross—receiving Christ’s Holy Mother.
They all received the Holy Spirit. They all went out to preach in hostile environments. They were all martyred…except St John.
We are way off topic Barb. If you care to start threads about these subjects…go for it.
Do you have anything more to say about the keys?
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Mickey
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Amen.
Christ is the primary leader. He is the Head of the Church.
Christ, primary.
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JRKH
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Well said Mickey…
I think sometimes we in the west get too caught up in the “governmental” nature of the Church with the Pope being the ultimate and sole “ruler”…
We miss the deeper and more unified nature of the “Church” which is the ekklesia, the community. Of course in action, the Church community, lay and clergy alike are very involved in discussion, debate and decision making. Not every individual of course, but certainly those called and trained for we recognize that we each have differing gifts.
Peter WAS called to lead, to be a spokesman as you say. In the very real sense to be “first among equals” as we sometimes say. The Bishop of Rome HAS traditionally been recognized as the successor of Peter and for that reason held a position of honor and authority. It really comes down to the question of what that authroity is and how it should be excersized, especially in it’s relationship with the other ancient Sees.
I think that this thread demonstrates well whey we need to be patient with each other and also to pray for the holy guidance of those on both sides charged with working toward greater unity between the RC and EO wings the Church…
These men, and the leadership of both sides, need and deserve our prayers.
Peace
James
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Mickey
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JRKH
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Mickey,
Thank you for your kind comments.
Isn’t it nice to be able to say “Amen” With each other occasionally instead of always saying “Yea but…
”Peace
James
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Mickey
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Yea but…just kidding.Isn’t it nice to be able to say “Amen” With each other occasionally instead of always saying “Yea but…
You have always been charitable and polite on these boards, James. I wish I could say the same for myself. I consider you as a friend and brother in Christ.
Mickey
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Barbkw
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Of course God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are primary.Amen. Christ is the primary leader. He is the Head of the Church.
Christ, primary.
As you are aware, my point was the Trinity’s selection of primary upon earth.
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Mickey
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Matthew 28:19-20
Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: **and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world. **
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Barbkw
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Jesus originally said to Peter:
“Simon son of John, blessed are you …for My Father in heaven has reveiled it to you… I will give you the keys of the Kingdom.”
and then (using the same language as He used in the giving of the keys)
Jesus says again to Kepha:
“Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?”
He said to him, “Feed my lambs, …”
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Barbkw
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That Scripture - doesn’t disprove the Primacy of Peter.
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Mickey
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Yes. I am familiar with Scripture. And…?
Yes. We have already covered the different meanings of the word “love” and the triple affirmation for the triple denial.
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Mickey
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Huh? Nobody is trying to disprove St Peter’s role in the Church. He had a primacy of honour. He was a spokesman. He was bishop of Antioch and Rome. He was martyred. He was equal with all the Apostles.
But he was not supreme leader. And he did not set the stage for a supreme pontiff.
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Barbkw
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It’s not at all legalistic - it’s practical application of mission and the mission statement.
No different than Jesus turning to Kepha (right after the giving of the keys) and saying to him:
“Get behind me Satan.”
Jesus said it directly to Peter, correcting him for his missinterpretation of the Son of God’s salvific mission upon Earth.
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JRKH
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You are very kind. You too, and all the Orthodox, are my brothers in Christ.Yea but…just kidding.
You have always been charitable and polite on these boards, James. I wish I could say the same for myself. I consider you as a friend and brother in Christ.
Mickey
One of my greatest wishes is that one day the East and West will be rejoined. Oh what a day that will be.
One of the things I wonder about is how much the two churches are still influenced by the ancient history of the Roman empire. To a some extent I think that how the Churches developed and consequently how they view things, even today, are are more or less a tied to the empire.
Not theologically, so much as governmentally. The East tended to shepherd along side of the Emperor and because the Empire in the East lasted much longer than in the west, this relationship took hold deeply. It may also be (and I don’t know this for sure) that because the seat of Empire moved East, the Patriarch(s) of Constantinople felt that his See should be seen as holding a primacy. Like I say - that is pure speculation on my part.
The relatively early collapse of the Western Empire caused a much different pattern to develop. The collapse and subsequent breakdown of civilization caused, even forced, the Pope to take on a much more direct leadership, thus in a sense, “combining” the office of Patriarch and Emperor.
I don’t know this of course. My understanding of the histories is quite limited. But from my humble understanding, these differences in thought and development, along with some unfortunate personality clashes, may be part of what led to misunderstandings and ultimately schism…
Peace
James
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