Whose sins you forgive...John 20:22-23

[Ladybug42]

So what was John talking about when Jesus gave the apostles the power to forgive sins?

Scripture does not contradict itself. If one piece, in context, appears to contradict another, then our understanding is incorrect. If only God can forgive sin, then the apostles are forgiving in name only. They are acting as God’s representatives, telling us what He has laid out as far as forgiveness goes. As we have already established, a priest forgiving your sins is only true if God forgives you. Only God knows your heart. If we are truthful to the priest, then the priest can do his job better.

I hope this helps!

 

[mark_a]

Maybe we are misunderstanding each other.
From your post above-

Scripture does not contradict itself. If one piece, in context, appears to contradict another, then our understanding is incorrect. If only God can forgive sin, then the apostles are forgiving in name only. They are acting as God’s representatives, telling us what He has laid out as far as forgiveness goes. As we have already established, a priest forgiving your sins is only true if God forgives you. Only God knows your heart. If we are truthful to the priest, then the priest can do his job better.

We agree here.

From your earlier post-

From what I learned in RCIA, a priest does not give forgiveness of sins, but only pronounces it. We learned that a priest may pronounce a sin forgiven, but that only God knows someone’s heart. So he discouraged lying during confession, because if you don’t meet the requirements, then despite having a priest “forgive” your sins, they will not be forgiven. I do not have the misconception that the majority of Catholics believe this. I have been questioning what a few folks on here have been saying. I’ll just look to the Catechism and ignore Catholics who dispute it from here on out.

We agree here.

But then you posted:
If I cannot be open with Him, if I have to have a person mediate, then…what in the world is Christ for? Christ alone acts as my High Priest. I do not need a Catholic priest to **give **me forgiveness. Christ assures me of that, and lays out the way to eternal life.

. . . . which leaves me confused.

If you are saying that you are just as forgiven going straight to God as Catholics are by going to God through a Priest, then I’ll take your word for it.

Are Catholics any less forgiven by going through a priest than you arre going straight to God?

 

[mercygate]

Scripture does not contradict itself. If one piece, in context, appears to contradict another, then our understanding is incorrect. If only God can forgive sin, then the apostles are forgiving in name only. They are acting as God’s representatives, telling us what He has laid out as far as forgiveness goes. As we have already established, a priest forgiving your sins is only true if God forgives you. Only God knows your heart. If we are truthful to the priest, then the priest can do his job better.

I hope this helps!

Ladybug, Ladybug:

Of course only God forgives sins. And of course one’s confession is invalid – in Catholic lingo: a bad confession – if one conceals or reserves anything in a confession. But Jesus’ words were “whose sins you forgive (and the grammar is indisputable), they are forgiven, and whose sinse you retain, they are retained.” And Paul states that “we” (apostles, presbyters) “have been entrusted with the ministry of reconciliation.” Further, he states that in reconciling the incestuous man, whatever he forgave, “forgave I it in the person of Christ” (KJV).

Forgave I – not God the Father or even Jesus: Forgave I it in the person of Christ. He stands “in the person of Christ” – not just declaring that “Jesus forgives” but really acting Jesus’ name. It’s a beautiful thing!

Clearly, the priest is not just a handy counselor trained in spiritual matters and familiar with Scripture. He is – again in Paul’s words: an “ambassador for Christ.” Ambassadors are entrusted to act with the powers of the King.

The priest serves with the hand of the Father in the person of Christ. How could you not LOVE that?

 

[Ladybug42]

Are Catholics any less forgiven by going through a priest than you arre going straight to God?

It was never my intention to say that. Or even think it. My beef is that I am being told that I have to go to a priest in order for my sins to be forgiven. Protestants don’t usually make the accusation that going to a priest negates forgiveness; whereas, I hear a whole lot of folks on here say that a person needs to go to a priest in order to be forgiven. Thankfully not everyone, though.

 

[Ladybug42]

Clearly, the priest is not just a handy counselor trained in spiritual matters and familiar with Scripture. He is – again in Paul’s words: an “ambassador for Christ.” Ambassadors are entrusted to act with the powers of the King.

Clearly, priests are both pastors and representatives of God. This does not give them saving power, which is what forgiving sins in practical terms negates to.

Let me give you an example. Yesterday, I told my daughter “there’s Daddy” and pointed to our family portrait on the wall. Grammatically, I was saying that the photo on the wall was Daddy. What I was really doing, was pointing her to something that represented her father, but in no way was her father. That photo is a tool we use so that she does not forget what he looks like while he is deployed. Until Christ’s return, we have been given pastors and priests, and we have been given the Eucharist, to point the way to God until His return. We have him, but these are visible ways to imbibe Him, and to understand His ways.

 

[mercygate]

Clearly, priests are both pastors and representatives of God. This does not give them saving power, which is what forgiving sins in practical terms negates to.

Let me give you an example. Yesterday, I told my daughter “there’s Daddy” and pointed to our family portrait on the wall. Grammatically, I was saying that the photo on the wall was Daddy. What I was really doing, was pointing her to something that represented her father, but in no way was her father. That photo is a tool we use so that she does not forget what he looks like while he is deployed. Until Christ’s return, we have been given pastors and priests, and we have been given the Eucharist, to point the way to God until His return. We have him, but these are visible ways to imbibe Him, and to understand His ways.

Jesus gave his priests the power to forgive sin **in his name; **the Catholic Church didn’t think this up in an idle moment. the Scriptural warrant, which I outlined for your in the post that you excerpted here, is absolutely iron clad. Moreover, Catholics must approach the mercy of Christ *in this way *in the ordinary course of life, excluding crises. From the *Catechism *(emphasis added):

**1457 **According to the Church’s command, “after having attained the age of discretion, each of the faithful is bound by an obligation faithfully to confess serious sins at least once a year.” Anyone who is aware of having committed a mortal sin must not receive Holy Communion, even if he experiences deep contrition, without having first received sacramental absolution, unless he has a grave reason for receiving Communion and there is no possibility of going to confession.

In other words, the Catholic Church takes Jesus at his word and restricts the forgiveness of sins to the means he prescribed as the *ordinary *way of handling post-baptismal sin. Remember the crowd who marveled when Jesus told the paralytic that his sins were forgiven? Their response was to glorifiy God, “who had given such authority to men.” Apostolic Churches (not just Latin Catholics) see this as a sign of the Sacrament of Confession. God “had given such authority to men.”

I agree with your earlier statement that you should go to the Catechism, which is a “sure norm” rather than listening to individual Catholics, who are notoriously inconsistent as a group (although not so much around here!).

 

[ncgolf]

Clearly, priests are both pastors and representatives of God. This does not give them saving power, which is what forgiving sins in practical terms negates to.

Let me give you an example. Yesterday, I told my daughter “there’s Daddy” and pointed to our family portrait on the wall. Grammatically, I was saying that the photo on the wall was Daddy. What I was really doing, was pointing her to something that represented her father, but in no way was her father. That photo is a tool we use so that she does not forget what he looks like while he is deployed. Until Christ’s return, we have been given pastors and priests, and we have been given the Eucharist, to point the way to God until His return. We have him, but these are visible ways to imbibe Him, and to understand His ways.

I cannot tell whether you think a priest has the power to forgive sins or not. A priest is not utilizing any power that he has only something that Christ has given him. He does not forgive in Father Murphy’s name but in Christ’s name. I can say the same words as a priest but they would have no effect. I am not only confessing to the priest but Christ also. I do not know if you have ever gone to confession but going with that thought is powerful because we understand it is Christ acting through his miinsterial priesthood.

One thing not mentioned about sacramental confession is what happens afterwards. Grace is meted out to begin to heal the wounds that sin caused. This only happens during sacramental confession … not when one confesses to God. The sacraments of the Catholic Church give divine grace that cannot be had anywhere else.

 

[mercygate]

I cannot tell whether you think a priest has the power to forgive sins or not. A priest is not utilizing any power that he has only something that Christ has given him. He does not forgive in Father Murphy’s name but in Christ’s name. I can say the same words as a priest but they would have no effect. I am not only confessing to the priest but Christ also. I do not know if you have ever gone to confession but going with that thought is powerful because we understand it is Christ acting through his miinsterial priesthood.

One thing not mentioned about sacramental confession is what happens afterwards. Grace is meted out to begin to heal the wounds that sin caused. This only happens during sacramental confession … not when one confesses to God. The sacraments of the Catholic Church give divine grace that cannot be had anywhere else.

Just to lighten this up for a moment, I just remembered a delicious old poem I knew a hundred years ago by an Anglican priest, S. J. Forest, that went:

I have a gentle eiderdown,
I am its proud possessor.
It is my very dearest friend
And favorite confessor.
For when I tell it all my sins
It seeks no retribution
But lulls me in its silken folds
With downy absolution.

I forget the rest – but Forest had a whole book of ditties like this. Riotously funny Anglican humour.

 

[ncgolf]

I forget the rest – but Forest had a whole book of ditties like this. Riotously funny Anglican humour.

I wonder what long lost neuron I must have hit.

 

[mercygate]

I wonder what long lost neuron I must have hit.

Dunno. But if you hit another one, maybe I’ll come up with the rest of that poem. It’s really funny!

Here comes mercygate the cynic. But whenever I hear all this blather about not having to go to a priest for confession because “you can go directly to God,” all I hear is: I’m a wuss and I’m scared to cough up the truth to another human being.

This quibble takes several forms. My favorite is: “Why should I confess my (trivial) sins to somebody who’s probably a much worse sinner than I am?”

 

[mercygate]

Dunno. But if you hit another one, maybe I’ll come up with the rest of that poem. It’s really funny!

Here comes mercygate the cynic. But whenever I hear all this blather about not having to go to a priest for confession because “you can go directly to God,” all I hear is: I’m a wuss and I’m scared to cough up the truth to another human being.

This quibble takes several forms. My favorite is: “Why should I confess my (trivial) sins to somebody who’s probably a much worse sinner than I am?”

 

[porthos11]

Forgiveness of sins is the job of God alone.

That’s why when explaining this passage, Catholics should not leave out the detail of Jesus breathing on the apostles, and mark the parallel of the fact that the only other time the Bible refers to God breathing into someone was when he created man. Clearly, the breathing means Jesus was imparting something to them.

Why would Jesus breathe on his disciples if their job was mere pronouncement?

 

[joshua_b]

Clearly, priests are both pastors and representatives of God. This does not give them saving power, which is what forgiving sins in practical terms negates to.

Let me give you an example. Yesterday, I told my daughter “there’s Daddy” and pointed to our family portrait on the wall. Grammatically, I was saying that the photo on the wall was Daddy. What I was really doing, was pointing her to something that represented her father, but in no way was her father. That photo is a tool we use so that she does not forget what he looks like while he is deployed. Until Christ’s return, we have been given pastors and priests, and we have been given the Eucharist, to point the way to God until His return. We have him, but these are visible ways to imbibe Him, and to understand His ways.

Maybe I can offer a thought here, and this really helped me understand the theology behind Sacramental Confession.

For starters, God’s ways are NOT our ways. (Scripture tells us that). The priest is capable of absolving or retaining sins (and this was a very hard part of the teaching to wrap my mind around), precisely because they were given that power through Christ. Ultimately, Ladybug, yes all forgiveness comes from God, and noone is disputing that, but as Catholics, we go to confession because we contend that Jesus intended for the priest and the confessional to be the channel by which he granted us forgivness. We have a saying as Catholics, that to accept Salvation, you must accept it on the terms that it was offered. Christ offered us His perpetual and assured Mercy through the Sacrament of Confession, and to accept that Mercy without accepting the means by which He gives it to us is to not accept it at all. (Now, this only applies to those of us who know this to be Truth, and reject it in defiance of what we believe to be Truth, not neccesarily to someone outside the Catholic Church who can not accept this…but that is a totally different thread…I digress) I strongly urge you to read all that the Catechism says about Sacramental Confession, and if you get hung up on anything, then post a new thread with specific questions. One thing I will add here is that the Catechism points out several things that I really internalized. One was the statement that the priest in the confessional was not the master of Christ’s mercy, but rather a servant to it. The other thing that struck me was the reference to Nathaniel in the old testament. God using physical human presence as the channel through which He forgives sin is certainly not without Biblical precedent. And, I would further like to point you to the formula for Absolution that the Eastern Catholic Churches use…I think there are some things that the Eastern rites do “better”, and this is one of them.

As far as your original post is concerned, I think another poster was very articulate when he told you that yes it is possible to be forgiven without “confession” (the Catholic kind), but it is dependent on things that only God knows for sure (I say that because I think we all to often deceive ourselves on the state of our own contrition)…through confession, we are ASSURED that we are forgiven of our sins.

 

[mercygate]

Maybe I can offer a thought here, and this really helped me understand the theology behind Sacramental Confession.

For starters, God’s ways are NOT our ways. (Scripture tells us that). The priest is capable of absolving or retaining sins (and this was a very hard part of the teaching to wrap my mind around), precisely because they were given that power through Christ. Ultimately, Ladybug, yes all forgiveness comes from God, and noone is disputing that, but as Catholics, we go to confession because we contend that Jesus intended for the priest and the confessional to be the channel by which he granted us forgivness. We have a saying as Catholics, that to accept Salvation, you must accept it on the terms that it was offered. Christ offered us His perpetual and assured Mercy through the Sacrament of Confession, and to accept that Mercy without accepting the means by which He gives it to us is to not accept it at all. (Now, this only applies to those of us who know this to be Truth, and reject it in defiance of what we believe to be Truth, not neccesarily to someone outside the Catholic Church who can not accept this…but that is a totally different thread…I digress) I strongly urge you to read all that the Catechism says about Sacramental Confession, and if you get hung up on anything, then post a new thread with specific questions. One thing I will add here is that the Catechism points out several things that I really internalized. One was the statement that the priest in the confessional was not the master of Christ’s mercy, but rather a servant to it. The other thing that struck me was the reference to Nathaniel in the old testament. God using physical human presence as the channel through which He forgives sin is certainly not without Biblical precedent. And, I would further like to point you to the formula for Absolution that the Eastern Catholic Churches use…I think there are some things that the Eastern rites do “better”, and this is one of them.

As far as your original post is concerned, I think another poster was very articulate when he told you that yes it is possible to be forgiven without “confession” (the Catholic kind), but it is dependent on things that only God knows for sure (I say that because I think we all to often deceive ourselves on the state of our own contrition)…through confession, we are ASSURED that we are forgiven of our sins.

Beautiful post, Joshua!

You make the key point: we must accept salvation on His terms. That’s the hard part. Took me 40 years.

 

[Ladybug42]

Here comes mercygate the cynic. But whenever I hear all this blather about not having to go to a priest for confession because “you can go directly to God,” all I hear is: I’m a wuss and I’m scared to cough up the truth to another human being.

Using the word “blather” to describe a very real concern, might not be the best approach to dissuading us. But you are entitled to your own opinion.

Maybe people don’t want to go to a Catholic priest because they aren’t Catholic, and can just go to their own priest or pastor. Maybe they confess to their spouse, to their best friend. It’s making a pretty big assumption to say that folks with this particular concern are “wusses.”

After I learned that I could go to the Catholic priest for confession before becoming Catholic (only without it being a Sacrament or receceiving “absolution”), I still felt that it would be…how shall I put this? It felt like I would be bothering him, since I wasn’t even Catholic. Kind of like taking advantage. So I went to my old pastor, of whose church I am still technically a member. And left emptied, but unsatisfied, for this church is not doctrinally correct. But enought of my problems…

Praying for you!

 

[mercygate]

Using the word “blather” to describe a very real concern, might not be the best approach to dissuading us. But you are entitled to your own opinion.

Maybe people don’t want to go to a Catholic priest because they aren’t Catholic, and can just go to their own priest or pastor. Maybe they confess to their spouse, to their best friend. It’s making a pretty big assumption to say that folks with this particular concern are “wusses.”

After I learned that I could go to the Catholic priest for confession before becoming Catholic (only without it being a Sacrament or receceiving “absolution”), I still felt that it would be…how shall I put this? It felt like I would be bothering him, since I wasn’t even Catholic. Kind of like taking advantage. So I went to my old pastor, of whose church I am still technically a member. And left emptied, but unsatisfied, for this church is not doctrinally correct. But enought of my problems…

Praying for you!

I should have realized that my comments would have been taken personally, and I apologize. Even the self-description of “cynic” wasn’t adequate.

I still say that most – not specifically your problems with this sacrament (since you seem to crave it, which is IMHO definitely a God-given grace) – most objections to this sacrament, are personal rather than theological, and they stem from squeamishness about being forthcoming with our own faults and sins in the way this sacrament requires. And you don’t have to dig very far before this becomes apparent.

 

[mark_a]

It was never my intention to say that. Or even think it. My beef is that I am being told that I have to go to a priest in order for my sins to be forgiven.

Thanks.

If you are not a Catholic, how could you go to a Catholic priest for confession? You could possibly seek the advice of a Catholic priest, but he could not forgive or retain your sins, could he?

If you’ve been through rcia and your concience will not let you become Catholic, and you can’t confess to a priest, you have no alternative but to confess without a priest.

Protestants don’t usually make the accusation that going to a priest negates forgiveness; whereas, I hear a whole lot of folks on here say that a person needs to go to a priest in order to be forgiven. Thankfully not everyone, though.

Confession to a priest is the normal way for a Catholic to be absolved of mortal sins, how could confession apply to non-Catholics?

 

[ALLFORHIM]

(For 18 years I made my confessions with the same priest, who was the Canon Pastor of the Cathedral of St. John the Divine in New York.

My Grandfather was a minister there He is buried there as well.
I know that has nothing to do with this thread I just wanted to say that.

 

[mercygate]

My Grandfather was a minister there He is buried there as well.
I know that has nothing to do with this thread I just wanted to say that.

Triple cool.

 

[alvin77]

Hello, have a blessed day to everyone. Truly indeed Jesus did not say those words without purpose, for it is only through confession to the Priest that we heard the absolution of our sins and our conscience becomes stable and free.Even though it is not prohibited to confess before God but how we are sure that we are forgiven? Most probably we will convinced ourselves to say God forgave us because He is so merciful and compassionate but i believe our conscience still being haunted unless God speak directly to you and say your sins are forgiven.
Regarding Priest abused… i believe priest will always forgive the sins of those who come to confess with them, for it is the command of Jesus Christ and being the Minister of God you cannot show or demonstrate things which are in contradiction of His likeness where Christ gave such power it does not mean to be abused . Unless a sinner who demonstrate likewise just to challenge the Priest or the Church in general and publicly showing how he commits sins and not being remorseful with all his sins maybe this are the sins which need to be bounded by priest or by the Church.. Things we practice or do in the Catholic Church are the Tradition that the Apostles taught the Bishops that were their successors until now, i believe to it for the Church taught it. And confession to the Priest is one of it.