Why a "dead" language?

[wraithx]

LilyM: how could you even dare consider rejecting all non-English poetry! Shame on you shame shame shame!

I think the fact is that Latin (and Ancient Greek too) has some literature that is so important and wonderful that to exclude it from our lives is a tragedy - especially as our Church has been so influenced by the Roman Empire. Here is a very tiny snippet of a poem in Latin for you to see - the lilt of the verse is just stunning and can not really be replicated in English because we have virtually eradicated noun cases.

Dies iræ! dies illa
Solvet sæclum in favilla
Teste David cum Sibylla!

Quantus tremor est futurus,
quando judex est venturus,
cuncta stricte discussurus!

It is, of course, the Dies Irae, by Thomas of Celano (a companion of St Francis) and it is sung or said in the Requiem Mass. The first time I heard it intoned was one of the most moving experiences of my life.

Ah me!

 

[catharina]

LilyM: how could you even dare consider rejecting all non-English poetry! Shame on you shame shame shame!

I think the fact is that Latin (and Ancient Greek too) has some literature that is so important and wonderful that to exclude it from our lives is a tragedy - especially as our Church has been so influenced by the Roman Empire. Here is a very tiny snippet of a poem in Latin for you to see - the lilt of the verse is just stunning and can not really be replicated in English because we have virtually eradicated noun cases.

Dies iræ! dies illa
Solvet sæclum in favilla
Teste David cum Sibylla!

Quantus tremor est futurus,
quando judex est venturus,
cuncta stricte discussurus!

It is, of course, the Dies Irae, by Thomas of Celano (a companion of St Francis) and it is sung or said in the Requiem Mass. The first time I heard it intoned was one of the most moving experiences of my life.

Ah me!

“Day of wrath and day of mourning … .”
How fitting for the reference “Babel Mass.”

 

[dulcissima]

I have always loved the Latin Mass and prayers and hymns in Latin too. I was raised with it and studied Latin for three years in HS, again some more in college. Loving it (the liturgy in Latin) and missing it is one thing. Saying that: “People do have a preference though when they are immigrants, to have a chance to get together with those that share their common culture and language. I don’t see anything wrong with that, but I think worshipping God transcends such things” is another issue. In this day when Latin is used divisively to separate those within the Church, I work very hard to unite my will to the will of God and the Church. The Church has spoken so I must think that worshipping God “in the vernacular” has to be our preference. The ordinary form of the Mass is the NO for everyone in the Church today. Holding a different opinion is not something I would allow myself. We’re not riding a wave of 40-year experimentation.

Catharina, I don’t usually post in this forum as I pretty much stick to the Family Life, Parenting, and Spirituality forums. I was just speaking off the top of my head about my own feelings. I’m really not up on all of the regular arguments for and against Mass in Latin. I just want to comment though that I find it strange that you would on the one hand say that you have always loved the Latin Mass, and then on the other hand say “worshipping God ‘in the vernacular’ has to be our preference”. Do you think that one would be disobedient to God and the Church to have a preference for Mass in Latin?

 

[wraithx]

catharina: by Babel Mass I am referring to the fact that Babel split the single language in to many - as did the New Mass - the result has been the same in many parishes - it is not an insult, it is an observation and comparison to a very similar situation that occurred in the Bible. Considering that the New Mass is meant to enhance “community” - it has broken many up. Rather ironic IMHO.

 

[LilyM]

LilyM: how could you even dare consider rejecting all non-English poetry! Shame on you shame shame shame!

I think the fact is that Latin (and Ancient Greek too) has some literature that is so important and wonderful that to exclude it from our lives is a tragedy - especially as our Church has been so influenced by the Roman Empire. Here is a very tiny snippet of a poem in Latin for you to see - the lilt of the verse is just stunning and can not really be replicated in English because we have virtually eradicated noun cases.

Dies iræ! dies illa
Solvet sæclum in favilla
Teste David cum Sibylla!

Quantus tremor est futurus,
quando judex est venturus,
cuncta stricte discussurus!

It is, of course, the Dies Irae, by Thomas of Celano (a companion of St Francis) and it is sung or said in the Requiem Mass. The first time I heard it intoned was one of the most moving experiences of my life.

Ah me!

I wasn’t rejecting anything, just pointing out that there’s plenty and more than sufficient (for most people) riches of poetry in the English language, is all

The KJV or Douai-Rheims versions of the Psalms have charms of their own which I’d say compare favourably, although different, to their Latin counterparts.

 

[dulcissima]

Some prayers are sung in Latin at my parish. And, when they do, I stand there wondering “what’s the point?”

I wonder, when you go to Mass in a church with marble and columns, high painted ceilings, with statues and paintings, do you stand there wondering “what’s the point? We could be having Mass in a converted warehouse and still be worshipping God just the same.” Where is your sense of awe that you are so unmoved?

 

[catharina]

Catharina, I don’t usually post in this forum as I pretty much stick to the Family Life, Parenting, and Spirituality forums. I was just speaking off the top of my head about my own feelings. I’m really not up on all of the regular arguments for and against Mass in Latin. I just want to comment though that I find it strange that you would on the one hand say that you have always loved the Latin Mass, and then on the other hand say “worshipping God ‘in the vernacular’ has to be our preference”. Do you think that one would be disobedient to God and the Church to have a preference for Mass in Latin?

I’m only quoting you. You said " … but I think worshipping God transcends such things (as use of the vernacular)." I think you stated something as your preference that is your preference. You and I clarified that.

For ME, yes, to allow such a thought re transcendence would be sinful, in the sense that I would be putting myself above the wisdom of the Church. That doesn’t make such thinking or preference sinful for you, just for ME.

“In this day when Latin is used divisively to separate those within the Church, I work very hard to unite my will to the will of God and the Church. The Church has spoken so I MUST THINK that worshipping God ‘in the vernacular’ has to be our preference. The ordinary form of the Mass is the NO for everyone in the Church today. Holding a different opinion is not something I would allow myself.” For me, it’s an issue of conformity to the will of God. For ME.

 

[catharina]

catharina: by Babel Mass I am referring to the fact that Babel split the single language in to many - as did the New Mass - the result has been the same in many parishes - it is not an insult, it is an observation and comparison to a very similar situation that occurred in the Bible. Considering that the New Mass is meant to enhance “community” - it has broken many up. Rather ironic IMHO.

To reference God’s Holy Mass as a “Babel Mass” is beyond the pale IMO. What happened at Babel was punishment for sin. Who could compare the NO to punishment for sin and why would anyone attempt to do so, even in jest?

I understood your reference but I’m saying it’s inept and even more troubling, it’s irreverent.

 

[agr4028]

I wonder, when you go to Mass in a church with marble and columns, high painted ceilings, with statues and paintings, do you stand there wondering “what’s the point? We could be having Mass in a converted warehouse and still be worshipping God just the same.” Where is your sense of awe that you are so unmoved?

My sense of awe in a Church is the realization of the Real Presence. An ornate edifice is splendid indeed, but does not take precedence over the Real Presence and the Celebration of the Eucharist.

 

[dulcissima]

I’m only quoting you. You said " … but I think worshipping God transcends such things (as use of the vernacular)." I think you stated something as your preference that is your preference. You and I clarified that.

For ME, yes, to allow such a thought re transcendence would be sinful, in the sense that I would be putting myself above the wisdom of the Church. That doesn’t make such thinking or preference sinful for you, just for ME.

“In this day when Latin is used divisively to separate those within the Church, I work very hard to unite my will to the will of God and the Church. The Church has spoken so I MUST THINK that worshipping God ‘in the vernacular’ has to be our preference. The ordinary form of the Mass is the NO for everyone in the Church today. Holding a different opinion is not something I would allow myself.” For me, it’s an issue of conformity to the will of God. For ME.

Again, I am wandering into unfamiliar territory here. I am a convert and not a cradle Catholic, so I consider myself a work in progress and I am still learning. So, I hope someone will correct me if I am mistaken…but didn’t Vatican II make Mass in the vernacular a possibility for the first time? I didn’t think it proclaimed Mass in Latin as forbidden, wrong, or even to be discouraged. Why on earth if people have a preference for Mass in Latin would that be setting themselves up as being in opposition to the will of God? This seems like it would be completely arbitrary and in contradiction of centuries and centuries of tradition. Giving people the option of Mass in the vernacular is not the same as imposing it upon everyone.

As far as Latin being divisive, the only thing that I seeing as being divisive here is someone coming onto a Traditional Catholic forum and ridiculing the use of Latin.

 

[dulcissima]

My sense of awe in a Church is the realization of the Real Presence. An ornate edifice is splendid indeed, but does not take precedence over the Real Presence and the Celebration of the Eucharist.

It is not mean to take precedence over the Real Presence, an ornate edifice, and prayers in an ancient language used for centuries by the Church, are meant to pay homage to the Real Presence. It is a way of acknowledging that what is taking place at Mass is something outside of the ordinary.

 

[wraithx]

LilyM: you definitely don’t have to convince me of the beauty of our own language - I think it is probably THE most beautiful language for poetry second to Latin

Despite my love of the ancient languages - when it comes to English I actually love modern poetry a lot - the likes of Sylvia Plath. I guess we should just all be glad to have such a diverse range of literature available to us in modern times.

 

[wraithx]

dulcissima: as in extraordinary form? Extraordinary in every way - sublime and truly the best prayer the Church has!

 

[wraithx]

catharina: God’s Holy Mass is the Divine Liturgy or traditional Mass as it is firmly rooted to the true traditions of the Church - I would consider the new Mass more Paul VI’s Mass - rooted firmly to Vatican II (if it is said predominantly in Latin and reverently as requested by the Council).

But this is my first day posting here and I don’t want to make enemies - I am not a fan of the new Mass which is why I go to the traditional Mass - and only time will fix the abuses we are all suffering under at the moment.

Let us simply agree that we have differing views and look forward to many opportunities to show our united Catholic front in future posts Regardless of our own personal feelings on the matter, we are all Catholic and want only what is best for Holy Mother Church and Pope Benedict XVI who has the difficult task of leading us!

 

[Phemie]

And then there is the Mass - knowing Latin (which is the language of the Traditional Mass and the language the current Pope is trying to get more widespread in the new Mass) will help you develop a much deeper understanding of the liturgical texts. I can really so no reason at all to despise its use.

Latin is the language of both the Ordinary and the Extraordinary Form of Mass. We are allowed to use the vernacular for the Ordinary Form but there is no obligation to do so and the Vat. II documents mandate that we should all know the Latin ordinary of the Mass (all the responses, acclamations, etc). Pope Paul VI even gave us a complete Mass setting of the Latin ordinary, the “Jubilate Deo” setting, something every parish should have in its repertoire.

 

[wraithx]

Phemie: indeed - hence my comment that the current Pope is trying to get it used in the new Mass as that is MEANT to be the default. I can’t help but think that when the new Mass is finally corrected (pro multis - the Pope has that sorted now at least) and everyone is saying it in Latin as the Pope desires, that people will start to wonder why we have both forms. When the new Mass is said as the Pope wants it, the only difference will be that the new Mass is shorter and uses a larger variety of Bible readings. Why not then just combine the two - put the Bible readings of the new Mass in to the traditional and make the traditional the sole rite of the Roman Church again.

But then, who knows what is going on in the cunning mind of our wonderful Pope - I certainly trust that he will be the Pope to (finally) sort out the mess we seem to have found ourselves in.

The election of Benedict, and his actions since has clearly shown that the Holy Ghost is still active in the Church and is being listened to. Deo gratias!

 

[catharina]

Again, I am wandering into unfamiliar territory here. I am a convert and not a cradle Catholic, so I consider myself a work in progress and I am still learning. So, I hope someone will correct me if I am mistaken…but didn’t Vatican II make Mass in the vernacular a possibility for the first time? I didn’t think it proclaimed Mass in Latin as forbidden, wrong, or even to be discouraged. Why on earth if people have a preference for Mass in Latin would that be setting themselves up as being in opposition to the will of God? This seems like it would be completely arbitrary and in contradiction of centuries and centuries of tradition. Giving people the option of Mass in the vernacular is not the same as imposing it upon everyone.

As far as Latin being divisive, the only thing that I seeing as being divisive here is someone coming onto a Traditional Catholic forum and ridiculing the use of Latin.

I’ll attempt one more response.

First, I had no idea that you’re a convert and second, WELCOME! It stands to reason that you and I would perceive things with different eys since you’re a convert and I’m a 62 yr-old cradle Catholic. I’ve only questioned a statement of yours that seems to hold the Latin Mass in a higher category than the Mass in the vernacular. (" … but I think worshipping God transcends such things.") Since the Mass in the vernacular has been given to us as the Ordinary Form, I’m uncomfortable with any statement that seems to imply that we are to be given “second best” as the ordinary form on a daily basis.

Perhaps you are not saying that at all.
Maybe I’ve misunderstood what you’re saying.
If so, I extend my apologies to you.

However, if you really BELIEVE that the Latin Mass is superior to the ordinary form, then I have to say that I believe you’re mistaken. The Mass is holy and equal in both formats. In fact, my personal preference (due to my age?) is for the Latin Mass. That doesn’t mean that I’m allowed to conclude that it’s is a form whose language (Latin) transcends such things as the more normal and common usage of the vernacular. THAT is where the argumentaion starts.

We (as Catholics) are NOT free to designate one Mass as SUPERIOR in form to another. We are not given the freedom to do that. As a lifelong Catholic, for me to decide to do so, would be sinful - for ME. I can’t speak to the conscience of another.

Your final comment? “As far as Latin being divisive, the only thing that I seeing as being divisive here is someone coming onto a Traditional Catholic forum and ridiculing the use of Latin.” It’s irrelevant to me since I’m incapable of ridiculing the Latin Mass at any time and in any place. It’s strange if you imagine otherwise.

 

[catharina]

catharina: God’s Holy Mass is the Divine Liturgy or traditional Mass as it is firmly rooted to the true traditions of the Church - I would consider the new Mass more Paul VI’s Mass - rooted firmly to Vatican II (if it is said predominantly in Latin and reverently as requested by the Council).

But this is my first day posting here and I don’t want to make enemies - I am not a fan of the new Mass which is why I go to the traditional Mass - and only time will fix the abuses we are all suffering under at the moment.

Let us simply agree that we have differing views and look forward to many opportunities to show our united Catholic front in future posts Regardless of our own personal feelings on the matter, we are all Catholic and want only what is best for Holy Mother Church and Pope Benedict XVI who has the difficult task of leading us!

So again, I say: "To reference God’s Holy Mass as a “Babel Mass” is beyond the pale IMO. What happened at Babel was punishment for sin. Who could compare the NO to punishment for sin and why would anyone attempt to do so, even in jest?

I understood your reference but I’m saying it’s inept and even more troubling, it’s irreverent."

Therefore as you’ve said, “Regardless of our own personal feelings on the matter, we are all Catholic and want only what is best for Holy Mother Church and Pope Benedict XVI who has the difficult task of leading us.” I’ll add that I can’t imagine the Holy Father referring to ANY Mass as the “Babel Mass.” Can you?

 

[wraithx]

catharina: I think that you could say that the traditional Mass is superior to the new in the sense that the new is almost always abused in one way or another - the traditional Mass with its very strict set of rubrics makes abuse much more difficult and less likely - as far as superior in the quantity of grace it imparts - that is a different argument.

You can probably say the the new Mass when said exactly as it should be could impart the same amount of grace as the traditional Mass. However, the fact remains, there are very very few instances of the new Mass being done exactly as the council intended.

 

[wraithx]

catharina: I am sure the holy father wouldn’t refer to the new Mass as a “babel Mass” - but I am not the holy Father I still believe my parallel stands true - I am not saying the new Mass is sinful, I am saying it bears a resemblance to the situation at Babel - a variety of languages were introduced and the result was confusion.