Why a "dead" language?

[agr4028]

I think that’s pretty narrow-minded. You don’t need to travel the “world”, either… a neighboring country usually suffices. And it’s not an “accommodation”: this was (and IS) part of our heritage, the Latin language.

What strikes me as narrow-minded, is forcing someone to learn a dead, foreign tongue to worship…when that worship is already facilitated through their native tongues.

 

[Brendan]

There is nothing in Canon Law that says they must be taught Latin.

There is another document, its name escapes me right now, written by John Paul II to bishops, not religious superiors, where he does mention education in the Latin language.

Pope Benedicts recent Exhortation on the Eucharist had a section on Latin

1. None of the above observations should cast doubt upon the importance of such large-scale liturgies. I am thinking here particularly of celebrations at international gatherings, which nowadays are held with greater frequency. The most should be made of these occasions. In order to express more clearly the unity and universality of the Church, I wish to endorse the proposal made by the Synod of Bishops, in harmony with the directives of the Second Vatican Council, that, with the exception of the readings, the homily and the prayer of the faithful, it is fitting that such liturgies be celebrated in Latin. Similarly, the better-known prayers of the Church’s tradition should be recited in Latin and, if possible, selections of Gregorian chant should be sung. Speaking more generally, I ask that future priests, from their time in the seminary, receive the preparation needed to understand and to celebrate Mass in Latin, and also to use Latin texts and execute Gregorian chant; nor should we forget that the faithful should be taught to recite the more common prayers in Latin, and also to sing parts of the liturgy to Gregorian chant. (184)

What is rather interesting is that, in the Latin original, the verb celebrāre used in the request for priest to celebrate the Mass in Latin is used in a continuing tone, that the priests should continualy celebrate the Mass in Latin ( not just learn it and forget it)

 

[japhy]

What strikes me as narrow-minded, is forcing someone to learn a dead, foreign tongue to worship…when that worship is already facilitated through their native tongues.

Yeah, expanding your horizons to learn to worship God in the same tongue as the whole Latin Rite of the Church is narrow-minded.

 

[laudamus_te]

What strikes me as narrow-minded, is forcing someone to learn a dead, foreign tongue to worship…when that worship is already facilitated through their native tongues.

“I am worried by the Blessed Virgin’s messages to little Lucia of Fatima. This persistence of Mary about the dangers which menace the Church is a divine warning against the suicide of altering the faith, in her liturgy, her theology and her soul… I hear all around me innovators who wish to dismantle the Sacred Chapel, destroy the universal flame of the Church, reject her ornaments and make her feel remorse for her historical past.”
-Cardinal Pacelli (the future Pope Piux XII), 1931

We would be wise to heed Our Lady’s warnings at Fatima.

 

[agr4028]

“I am worried by the Blessed Virgin’s messages to little Lucia of Fatima. This persistence of Mary about the dangers which menace the Church is a divine warning against the suicide of altering the faith, in her liturgy, her theology and her soul… I hear all around me innovators who wish to dismantle the Sacred Chapel, destroy the universal flame of the Church, reject her ornaments and make her feel remorse for her historical past.”
-Cardinal Pacelli (the future Pope Piux XII), 1931

We would be wise to heed Our Lady’s warnings at Fatima.

And where in that statement is Latin mentioned? Is Latin an “ornament” like a statue or stained glass window?

 

[laudamus_te]

And where in that statement is Latin mentioned? Is Latin an “ornament” like a statue or stained glass window?

Latin is a part of our Church’s historical past.

 

[laudamus_te]

For all of those who use the “I don’t know what’s going on because the Mass is in Latin” excuse, here is a book which looks very helpful. It is very inexpensive, and even cheaper bulk orders are possible. Great for congregations just beginning to offer the TLM:
angeluspress.org/oscatalog/item/8266/for-the-visitor-at-mass?utm_source=visitoratmass0408&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=visitor1

 

[agr4028]

Latin is a part of our Church’s historical past.

So are other languages, but I don’t see or hear folks carping for them…

 

[japhy]

So are other languages, but I don’t see or hear folks carping for them…

Really?

The Vatican II document Optatam Totius (on priestly training) says: “Before beginning specifically ecclesiastical subjects, seminarians should be equipped with that humanistic and scientific training which young men in their own countries are wont to have as a foundation for higher studies. Moreover they are to acquire a knowledge of Latin which will enable them to understand and make use of the sources of so many sciences and of the documents of the Church. The study of the liturgical language proper to each rite should be considered necessary; a suitable knowledge of the languages of the Bible and of Tradition should be greatly encouraged.” (n. 13)

Vatican II “carped” for them. But it didn’t call for the Mass to be said entirely in Greek or in Aramaic (in the Latin Rite) because those are not the languages proper to the Latin Rite: Latin is.

And as for Greek and Hebrew, I do wish we would say the Kyrie in Greek, and that we would use the Hebrew words amen, halleluyah, sabaoth, etc. in the Mass.

 

[laudamus_te]

So are other languages, but I don’t see or hear folks carping for them…

Your repetitive use of the word “carping” in reference to Catholics who are simply asking for what is their right, and which they have been unjustly denied for many years, is getting tiresome. By the way, I have never seen such an abundant use of the silly “emoticon” as I have on this forum. They seem to be used a lot as a crutch by those who don’t have a valid argument.

 

[agr4028]

Your repetitive use of the word “carping” in reference to Catholics who are simply asking for what is their right, and which they have been unjustly denied for many years, is getting tiresome. By the way, I have never seen such an abundant use of the silly “emoticon” as I have on this forum. They seem to be used a lot as a crutch by those who don’t have a valid argument.

Actually, Forum Rules encourage use of the emoticons…

 

[Lapell]

Sometimes you have to allow people time to feel comfortable before you take it to another level. In many places such as Africa, Asia and South America our anscestors made some big mistakes. They tried to force Catholicism on the native populations without first winning them over.

Some of the diaries that I’ve read by early Franciscan and Dominican missionaries to the Americas describe how the friars of both orders tried very hard to evangelize through charity and by serving the needs of the natives and how the European laity undid everything that the friars were trying to accomplish. They conquered and abused the local people all in the name of King and God.

It made it difficult for the friars to develop some credibility when the lay people were not cooperative.

This often happens today too. The laity is often more of an obstacle to evangelizing those whe do not know Christ than they are a help. Too many lay people are very demanding and rigid in their approach to faith. This does not help to draw non Catholics or non believers into dialogue or make them want to listen to what we have to offer.

I’m not sure if I’m saying it clearly.

JR

Sorry to be “late”, I had to finish my job here, and then left. I just read your post. I find your insight very true.

 

[Lapell]

Actually, Forum Rules encourage use of the emoticons…

I have used them once in a while. Does agr4028 find my posts quite insignificant? I find them to be helpful as to not give the impression we are being mean when we just were mildly teasing… Some of them are meant to give encouragement to others, such as this one … and anyhow, you don’t have to use them if you don’t want to!

 

[Lapell]

Your repetitive use of the word “carping” in reference to Catholics who are simply asking for what is their right, and which they have been unjustly denied for many years, is getting tiresome. By the way, I have never seen such an abundant use of the silly “emoticon” as I have on this forum. They seem to be used a lot as a crutch by those who don’t have a valid argument.

Sorry! Erratum! my last post meant to answer to laudamus te, not arg4-numbers (sorry! my memory is failing me, I just don’t remember the exact set of numbers…)

 

[Lapell]

What strikes me as narrow-minded, is forcing someone to learn a dead, foreign tongue to worship…when that worship is already facilitated through their native tongues.

I don’t think the mass in Latin to be compulsory if you want to attend it in your own language, or is it? I don’t believe so!
You know, there are people who have enjoyed the mass in Latin, the Gregorian Chant… I do myself sometimes. And when I was a kid, the missal had the Latin text AND a translation in our language (in my case it’s French), so if we wanted to know what was said we could look at the translation!
That being said, i prefer to have the mass in my language, but if once in a while we had it all in latin (except of course for the homily and the universal prayers at least) I wouldn’t mind so much!
However, where it will be reinstalled it will be because the people asked for it… so, I don’t think it’ll happen in my parish! Unless… anyhow, just wait and see!

 

[Lapell]

Your repetitive use of the word “carping” in reference to Catholics who are simply asking for what is their right, and which they have been unjustly denied for many years, is getting tiresome. By the way, I have never seen such an abundant use of the silly “emoticon” as I have on this forum. They seem to be used a lot as a crutch by those who don’t have a valid argument.

Of course, my use of the emoticons may not be quite the same as arg4028’s (I got it this time!!! )

 

[agr4028]

I don’t think the mass in Latin to be compulsory if you want to attend it in your own language, or is it? I don’t believe so!
You know, there are people who have enjoyed the mass in Latin, the Gregorian Chant… I do myself sometimes. And when I was a kid, the missal had the Latin text AND a translation in our language (in my case it’s French), so if we wanted to know what was said we could look at the translation!
That being said, i prefer to have the mass in my language, but if once in a while we had it all in latin (except of course for the homily and the universal prayers at least) I wouldn’t mind so much!
However, where it will be reinstalled it will be because the people asked for it… so, I don’t think it’ll happen in my parish! Unless… anyhow, just wait and see!

I enjoy Gregorian Chant. But it can be done in the vernacular and sound great also

 

[japhy]

However, where it will be reinstalled it will be because the people asked for it… so, I don’t think it’ll happen in my parish! Unless… anyhow, just wait and see!

Peut-être les gens de ta paroisse ne savent pas ce qu’ils manquent! C’est possible – non? – qu’ils ne savent pas sur la langue, son histoire… et ils n’apprenaient jamais ce que le Conseil IIe du Vatican a dit sur le sujet de cette langue dans la Messe.

 

[Ghoti]

Peut-être les gens de ta paroisse ne savent pas ce qu’ils manquent! C’est possible – non? – qu’ils ne savent pas sur la langue, son histoire… et ils n’apprenaient jamais ce que le Conseil IIe du Vatican a dit sur le sujet de cette langue dans la Messe.

Fortasse, gens parochiae non enim sciunt quid omittiunt. Fortasse, ignorant de lingua historiaque, et numquam didicere quid Concilium Secundum Vaticanum de re linguae in Missa dixit.

(That’s the best I can do. Now there’s smoke coming out of my Wheelock’s.)

 

[japhy]

(By the way, excellent username.)

Fortasse, gens parochiae non enim sciunt quid omitt(i)unt. Fortasse, ignorant de lingua historiaque, et numquam didicere quid Concilium Secundum Vaticanum de re linguae in Missa dixit.

(That’s the best I can do. Now there’s smoke coming out of my Wheelock’s.)

For those who could not follow the French nor the Latin, here is an authorized English translation:
Perhaps the parishioners do not know what they are missing. Perhaps they are ignorant of the language and the history, and have never learned what the Second Vatican Council said regarding the language in the Mass.
Now there’s smoke coming out of my Whitaker’s Words!