Why Accept Joseph Smith?

[ParkerD]

Lax16,
Since you asked about whether I have been in a position that I would have counseled others with chastity issues in their lives, I will explain that I have had that situation years ago but that it never involved adultery, only young women and young men and I will explain some of the counsel I gave at that time:

To the young women, I tried to get them to see that as they placed their body into a situation where they were being used by a young man, that they were treating their body as a separate entity from their core person and allowing that separate entity to be used as something to try and please the young man, but if they would reconsider and realize that their body is their personal property and that to disconnect (in their own mind) their core person from their body is unhealthy and dangerous for their inner peace–they cannot do that and have inner peace. I also counseled them that as they placed their body into an intimate relationship with a young man, their core person would never be the same because their whole emotional self forms a connection (an emotional bond) with the person with whom they have that kind of a relationship, and thus the importance of the law of chastity and the importance of repentance and the atonement of Christ to try and restore that which has been lost and the counterfeit experience (inner peace and a counterfeit emotional bond that would need to be erased through the atonement of Christ working in that young person’s life as they repent.)

To the young man, I tried to get them to see that by treating a young woman as an object for their experimentation or gratification, they were placing a significant emotional and spiritual hardship in the life of that young woman with the counterfeit emotional bond that was intended by God and by nature to be a lasting, life-long commitment in such an intimate relationship. They needed to realize that a young woman will have a very difficult time getting over such a thing, if ever, and that the extreme selfishness of their act places them in a condition of needing not only repentance and forgiveness from Christ and from the young woman, but also a whole change of outlook about how they view women and how they will view them and treat them in the future.

I tell you those things above so you may understand that when I wrote about the question of Joseph Smith and “adultery”, I am totally familiar with the understanding that he would have had about these kinds of issues and certainly about the emotional impact on the life of a woman to have an intimate relationship outside of her marriage and the difficulty of the emotional confusion that would entail for a woman, and the selfishness of the man who would place a woman into that kind of position in her life.

Joseph Smith did not act out of selfish motives–one can sense this who sincerely studies his life, but only if they sincerely do study his life whereas they are going to be bombarded with superficial arguments where someone is trying to discredit him as happened during his life and as happens today on the internet or wherever, if they do not do a sincere study and consider the implications of the things he did in trying to help bring about a Zion people on earth among his followers. One would look at how he reacted when he heard of people in need, how he reacted when a person had turned against him but repented and came back seeking restored friendship, and how he wrote about the core doctrines of the gospel regarding unselfishness and regarding leadership without selfish or grandiose motives. (See, for example, Doctrine and Covenants 121, entire section.)

Lax16,
Since you again brought up the issue of counseling youth, above is my response to that sort of accusation about whether I have or have not. (It was to other people’s children, not my own. It had to do with a responsibility I had at the time, many years ago.)

 

[twopekinguys]

DNA studies:

wivesofjosephsmith.org/DNA.htm

deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695226318,00.html

josephsmithjr.org/the-news/60-smith-descendants-other-wives

The introductory heading to D & C 132 states that Joseph Smith received the commandment to practice plural marriage in 1831, which is totally consistent in that he began a “translation” (i.e. inspired clarification) of the Bible in 1830 and finished that process in July 1833 with the New Testament, although he planned to go back and seek further inspiration about texts within the Bible after that initial completion. So he would have been reading in Genesis and asking God about the details of Genesis in 1830, in which case that is when he would have begun to question about Abraham and Jacob and plural marriage.

You’re the one who quoted dates that appear to be in conflict with the D&C. I’'m just sayin

My post had stated that revelation even to a prophet may be an iterative process, which has to do with “line upon line, precept upon precept,” so although Joseph Smith was told an answer about a question in 1830 or 1831, that does not mean he received complete understanding about the subject, nor does the date of the writing down of a revelation mean it was the date of having received the revelation. So keep in mind two aspects of this–he was told why Abraham and Jacob had more than one wife in 1830, was told “you must begin living this principle” as a test of his own faith in about 1831, was further commanded about it in subsequent years, and received more detailed doctrinal understanding about the sealing power and about celestial marriage in the years 1836 (when Elijah and an Elias restored keys of temple work by coming as heavenly messengers to the Kirtland Temple) through 1842 when Joseph Smith wrote about temple work in a letter contained in D & C 128 based on the further guidance he had received on the subject, which would be because of asking further questions (seeking understanding) and receiving answers by inspiration and revelation.

Oh, I’m sure this “revelation” was an interactive process alright. He and Fanny interacted a whole lot. Even Emma caught him interacting with her, as stated by one of your apostles.

Here is a source exploring the issue of “rumors” about Joseph and plural marriages

en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Polygamy/Fanny_Alger_and_William_McLellin

Hardly a reliable, fair or objective source.

My point has been that the charge of “adultery” would pertain to having sexual relations (not whether he was sealed in an eternal marriage covenant) with a woman who was already married. There is no strong evidence that he had sexual relations with a woman who was already married–just rumors without evidence.

What you are missing here is that HE was married, so the marital status of the women he was with wouldn’t change the fact that it was adultery. Only one part has to be married in order for it to be considered adultery.

My point about adultery in general is that someone with a strong moral sense and strong desires to live by the commandments of God is going to keep the law of chastity and do it “easily” meaning that it is not a hard commandment to keep, in any of the forms it takes. Also, just because a couple of areas in Utah have high subscription rates that push up a statistic, does not generalize to the whole population of Utah.

Can you point to where in the study it supports your idea that “a couple of areas” cause the numbers to give an inaccurate representation of the findings? Utah has the highest populaton of mormons, Utah has the highest rate of porn subscriptions.

Since the document appears to apply the same criteria to all states without bias, don’t you think if there were factors localized to a specific area, that would have been indicated?
Your assumption is just that. You are trying to justify in your own mind something different that what the study is showing you.

If Joseph Smith was “guilty” under the commandments of God (as compared with in the view of some people who did not believe he was inspired by God), then his eyes would have shown that and sincere people would have seen that in his eyes. (That can be done even by looking at people’s eyes on television or in person–the eyes are the window to the soul.) His sincere followers would have seen a change in his eyes and would have been uncomfortable continuing to follow him–I’m talking about women and men of integrity and virtue themselves who had a strong moral sense and who would be able to discern virtue within the eyes of someone else, especially one serving as a teacher or leader. The rumors came from people disaffected with the church, or having an agenda to prove for whatever reason.

You’re kidding with this right? You have heard of people like Jim Jones, David Koresh, and Heaven’s Gate right? They were so convincing to their followers that they ended up dead!

In cases like this, their delusion is so deep that they actually believe what they are saying. So the whole looking at people’s eye’s thing is soooo not true, accurate or reasonable, it isn’t even in the same universe as true, accurate or reasonable.

 

[ParkerD]

You’re the one who quoted dates that appear to be in conflict with the D&C. I’'m just sayin

Oh, I’m sure this “revelation” was an interactive process alright. He and Fanny interacted a whole lot. Even Emma caught him interacting with her, as stated by one of your apostles.

Hardly a reliable, fair or objective source.

What you are missing here is that HE was married, so the marital status of the women he was with wouldn’t change the fact that it was adultery. Only one part has to be married in order for it to be considered adultery.

Can you point to where in the study it supports your idea that “a couple of areas” cause the numbers to give an inaccurate representation of the findings? Utah has the highest populaton of mormons, Utah has the highest rate of porn subscriptions.

Since the document appears to apply the same criteria to all states without bias, don’t you think if there were factors localized to a specific area, that would have been indicated?
Your assumption is just that. You are trying to justify in your own mind something different that what the study is showing you.

You’re kidding with this right? You have heard of people like Jim Jones, David Koresh, and Heaven’s Gate right? They were so convincing to their followers that they ended up dead!

In cases like this, their delusion is so deep that they actually believe what they are saying. So the whole looking at people’s eye’s thing is soooo not true, accurate or reasonable, it isn’t even in the same universe as true, accurate or reasonable.

I didn’t write that unrighteous people could look in people’s eyes and detect darkness, but righteous people can, and do. Just because people follow someone does not mean the leader or the follower is righteous. I was writing about personal righteousness and personal integrity, and that the Holy Ghost confirms truth and light to people when they see truth and light. The people you mentioned would not have had those elements in their lives, at all. It is not in the same ballpark.

I will find other articles, when I have time (not now), that I have read that indicated the statistical issue you raised about Utah is isolated to very tiny population areas in the state. These things have been able to be pin-pointed using the very techniques that led to the study you cited.

 

[twopekinguys]

I didn’t write that unrighteous people could look in people’s eyes and detect darkness, but righteous people can, and do. Just because people follow someone does not mean the leader or the follower is righteous. I was writing about personal righteousness and personal integrity, and that the Holy Ghost confirms truth and light to people when they see truth and light. The people you mentioned would not have had those elements in their lives, at all. It is not in the same ballpark.

Can you say double standard?

You have JS who claims to be a prophet, and you have Jim Jones who claims to be a prophet. Both have followers who believe they are a prophet. Both “prophets” have some whacky ideas/revelations. Seems like a good comparison don’t you think.

So what you are saying is the JS and his followers are rightous because the Holy Spirit confirmed it to them. But…Jim Jones and his followers weren’t, even though they believed the Holy Spirit confirmed it to them.

Who are you to say that the Holy Spirit didn’t confrim everything to Jim Jones’ followers? Or anyone else for that matter?

I will find other articles, when I have time (not now), that I have read that indicated the statistical issue you raised about Utah is isolated to very tiny population areas in the state. These things have been able to be pin-pointed using the very techniques that led to the study you cited.

Great! I would hope that since I used an independent source, you can do the same.

 

[lax16]

Lax16,
I fail to see how the above questions/accusations including both sets of questions/accusations were not “accusing Joseph Smith of anything.” I fail to see how by a person attacking Joseph Smith helps them understand the Mormon religion. I also fail to see how if people are going to attack Joseph Smith that I don’t have a right to confront the position they have taken, and do it directly by commenting about what they have had to say.

I think these things can be discussed in a non-confrontational way, but if people have already formed opinions and jumped to conclusions, then to get their attention one will sometimes be blunt and upfront.

Peace to all.

Everyone has a right to ask questions. I was/am trying to follow a logical sequence of questions to come to an opinion/answer regarding the nature of God as seen by the LDS and the human nature of Joseph Smith.

You can confront the position I have taken, but please answer my questions. You can be blunt and upfront, but will you allow me the same courtesy?

Isn’t your reason for being here to provide the LDS teachings even to people who have formed opinions and reached conclusions? It is not your job, in my opinion, to convince me or anyone else of anything. Just answer questions according to LDS doctrine and that will be sufficient.

 

[lax16]

Lax16,
Since you again brought up the issue of counseling youth, above is my response to that sort of accusation about whether I have or have not. (It was to other people’s children, not my own. It had to do with a responsibility I had at the time, many years ago.)

Accusation?

First of all, I have never said/asked if you were in a position that would require you to counsel children on CHASTITY issues, only those regarding faith.

Second of all, I wouldn’t think one would be discussing chastity with children. (Teens, yes).

Third of all, it was/is my suggestion that if you do work with children to not jump down their throats if they come to you with questions of faith.

Stop turning this around. I have said nothing inappropriate. I have ACCUSED you of nothing. Stop deflecting. Get back to the topic at hand.

 

[sablouwho]

Originally Posted by ParkerD
I didn’t write that unrighteous people could look in people’s eyes and detect darkness, but righteous people can, and do. Just because people follow someone does not mean the leader or the follower is righteous. I was writing about personal righteousness and personal integrity, and that the Holy Ghost confirms truth and light to people when they see truth and light. The people you mentioned would not have had those elements in their lives, at all. It is not in the same ballpark.

Also, Parker’s post is suggesting that a righteous person would be incapable of being deceived. I see a lot of problems with that.

This reminds me of something I read on a CAF thread several weeks ago. Apparently Utah has the highest rate of Multi-Level Marketing participation in the US (or something to that effect). Hmmmm…

 

[ParkerD]

Also, Parker’s post is suggesting that a righteous person would be incapable of being deceived. I see a lot of problems with that.

This reminds me of something I read on a CAF thread several weeks ago. Apparently Utah has the highest rate of Multi-Level Marketing participation in the US (or something to that effect). Hmmmm…

That would be because people in Utah have a higher level of trust of people generally, because they have been raised in an environment where they perceived they could trust people and not have their hand in their back pocket at all times. (Especially can this be true of the elderly who are sometimes preyed upon by schisters.) When a person violates that trust, then I suppose it serves the person who “trusted” right if they assumed by multi-level marketing that they could earn money faster than a normal return on normal work and normal effort. The LDS have been counseled about this for years, but that does not take away personal agency of people to not listen to their leaders and to make assumptions as gullible people sometimes are wont to do. (Yes, LDS can be gullible. They can make erroneous assumptions, and can have poor economic sense–but if they had been listening to their leaders, there would not be one case of a multi-level marketing scheme that preyed on LDS people–not one.)

Besides which, the situation in the spirit world for one who has preyed upon people during their life with dishonest business tactics will suffer for every one of their dishonest and dishonorable deeds, and they will have had it coming to them, regardless of their religious affiliation. What went around will come around for them.

 

[twopekinguys]

That would be because people in Utah have a higher level of trust of people generally, because they have been raised in an environment where they perceived they could trust people and not have their hand in their back pocket at all times
(Especially can this be true of the elderly who are sometimes preyed upon by schisters.) When a person violates that trust, then I suppose it serves the person who “trusted” right if they assumed by multi-level marketing that they could earn money faster than a normal return on normal work and normal effort. The LDS have been counseled about this for years, but that does not take away personal agency of people to not listen to their leaders and to make assumptions as gullible people sometimes are wont to do. (Yes, LDS can be gullible. They can make erroneous assumptions, and can have poor economic sense–but if they had been listening to their leaders, there would not be one case of a multi-level marketing scheme that preyed on LDS people–not one.)

Besides which, the situation in the spirit world for one who has preyed upon people during their life with dishonest business tactics will suffer for every one of their dishonest and dishonorable deeds, and they will have had it coming to them, regardless of their religious affiliation. What went around will come around for them.

You’ve made some pretty broad assumptions. Personally, I have lived in several countries other than the US, and I have travelled the world extensively. Your comment about people of Utah having a higher level of trust is ridiculous.

Also, you realize that with a multi level marketing scheme, those people who are participating in it are scamming those they bring into it. It is just another name for a pyramid scheme. The higher you are on the pyramid, the greater the gains.

I believe (correct me if I’m wrong Sablouwho ), that Sablouwho was referring to Utah having the most active participants in these schemes. In other words, they were the schysters.

“Although Utah is Dr. Taylor’s home state, he is forced to admit that Utah leads the nation in density of MLM companies headquartered in the state; i.e., there are more companies based in Utah per capita than in any other state in the country. And there is not a county in the U.S. that holds a close second place to Utah County. Almost all of these can be classified as “recruiting MLM’s” which are explained on the MLM CONSUMER GUIDES page. For a recent listing of Utah-based MLM’s with at least four of the “5 Red Flags of a recruiting MLM” in their compensation plans, click here. Read about curious parallels between MLM and genealogy – which is emphasized by Latter-day Saints, especially in Utah, which has the largest genealogical facilities in the world…”

mlm-thetruth.com/Utah_hotbed.htm

 

[twopekinguys]

You will notice from the link that I gave you, the company Nu Skin which is based in Utah appears to be one of these pyramid type schemes.

The company’s Chairman of the Board is a gentleman named Blake Roney. From what I have found, he appears to be lds. So ultimately, lds is preying on lds.

famousmormons.net/bus03.html

 

[why_me]

Oh, I’m sure this “revelation” was an interactive process alright. He and Fanny interacted a whole lot. Even Emma caught him interacting with her, as stated by one of your apostles.

Hardly a reliable, fair or objective source.

Fanny’s parents and brother found nothing wrong with the relationship. In fact, all went to Utah to settle with the early mormons. And fanny’s parents were quite proud of their daughter being sealed to Joseph Smith.

And fanny herself never to my knowledge said a bad word about Joseph Smith. In fact, she left the mormon settlement with her relatives and thereafter married and began to have many children.

And the sources that the catholics post to counter the mormons are not reliable also.

 

[sablouwho]

I believe (correct me if I’m wrong Sablouwho ), that Sablouwho was referring to Utah having the most active participants in these schemes. In other words, they were the schysters.

Yeah, I think that you are recalling the post better than I am, actually. A lot of MLM companies in Utah, I gathered from that post a while back.

I remember being surprised when I first tried an acai “health drink” packaged in a wine bottle, and turning over the bottle to see the back label and learning that the company is Utah based.

 

[twopekinguys]

Yeah, I think that you are recalling the post better than I am, actually. A lot of MLM companies in Utah, I gathered from that post a while back.

I remember being surprised when I first tried an acai “health drink” packaged in a wine bottle, and turning over the bottle to see the back label and learning that the company is Utah based.

Actually, I don’t remember the post at all. (could be an age thing ), However, I did do a quick google for Utah and multi level marketing, and came up with all sorts of interesting information at the link I provided in my earlier post.

 

[lax16]

Fanny’s parents and brother found nothing wrong with the relationship. In fact, all went to Utah to settle with the early mormons. And fanny’s parents were quite proud of their daughter being sealed to Joseph Smith.

And fanny herself never to my knowledge said a bad word about Joseph Smith. In fact, she left the mormon settlement with her relatives and thereafter married and began to have many children.

And the sources that the catholics post to counter the mormons are not reliable also.

I’m not sure if the purpose of your post is to show that her parents did a good thing or a creepy thing…

 

[AtticusFinch]

Fanny’s parents and brother found nothing wrong with the relationship. In fact, all went to Utah to settle with the early mormons. And fanny’s parents were quite proud of their daughter being sealed to Joseph Smith.

And fanny herself never to my knowledge said a bad word about Joseph Smith. In fact, she left the mormon settlement with her relatives and thereafter married and began to have many children.

And the sources that the catholics post to counter the mormons are not reliable also.

lol…the source was an LDS Apostle. I will agree with you that they are not reliable sources. See? We CAN agree on something

 

[Xavierlives]

Yeah, but it is good evidence. Quotes from witnesses are always good evidence.

Not in court.

 

[twopekinguys]

I’m not sure if the purpose of your post is to show that her parents did a good thing or a creepy thing…

 

[sablouwho]

I’m not sure if the purpose of your post is to show that her parents did a good thing or a creepy thing…

I am guessing that Parker was using her parents non-objection as some sort of support. That said, my thinking is in line with your, lax, it is creepy to me that a parent would support something like that, prophet or not.

 

[Xavierlives]

My point has been that the charge of “adultery” would pertain to having sexual relations (not whether he was sealed in an eternal marriage covenant) with a woman who was already married. There is no strong evidence that he had sexual relations with a woman who was already married–just rumors without evidence.

My point about adultery in general is that someone with a strong moral sense and strong desires to live by the commandments of God is going to keep the law of chastity and do it “easily” meaning that it is not a hard commandment to keep, in any of the forms it takes. Also, just because a couple of areas in Utah have high subscription rates that push up a statistic, does not generalize to the whole population of Utah.

If Joseph Smith was “guilty” under the commandments of God (as compared with in the view of some people who did not believe he was inspired by God), then his eyes would have shown that and sincere people would have seen that in his eyes. (That can be done even by looking at people’s eyes on television or in person–the eyes are the window to the soul.) His sincere followers would have seen a change in his eyes and would have been uncomfortable continuing to follow him–I’m talking about women and men of integrity and virtue themselves who had a strong moral sense and who would be able to discern virtue within the eyes of someone else, especially one serving as a teacher or leader. The rumors came from people disaffected with the church, or having an agenda to prove for whatever reason.

So, JS’s recorded marriages (some to already married women) before plural marriage was established in the D&C is nothing but an oversight and not adultery?

 

[lax16]

So, JS’s recorded marriages (some to already married women) before plural marriage was established in the D&C is nothing but an oversight and not adultery?

Xavier…I also think some clarity on the issue of how sealings/marriages worked in the time of Joseph Smith would be helpful.

As I have asked before, did the wives have a say in it before it happened?