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sablouwho
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Oh, thank you for mentioning this website, I didn’t realize that there was an online group for cafeteria LDS! I browsed around the site a wee bit–it’s interesting!
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RebeccaJ
Guest
Yes, that is what I was saying! geez.
Yes, and you used the mormon mythical membership number (13-14 million) to prove some sort of point that ALL these people actually believe what the mormon church teaches…something that is false.
You countered something you perceive to be false with just more false…two false don’t make a truth?
Hmmmm…no.
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RebeccaJ
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Welcome to the life of having mormon relatives…they are the ones responsible for sending missionaries to your door. Giving your phone number and address out to “the ward”. Putting your name on catalog mailing lists, or signing you (and your children) up for mormon periodicals. All of this I have experienced from my mormon family.
This past Christmas one gave my daughter a Book of Mormon as a gift. They cornered her in a bedroom by herself, gave their testimony, and a BoM. A Christmas ambush!! I’m thinking next year I’ll give them some holy water and a crucifix.
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AMDGtoo
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Wow, you are really something. You make a remark that I should just “Google” your goings on at your secret temple and dare me to “try it” while remaking a opinionated remark. I retell that I’ve been the victim of unwelcome harassment by numerous Mormon adults (as well as even having to deal with a rude child), and you somehow twist it all to the one child and then claim it’s all about Mitt Romney!
Okay, got it loud and clear, you don’t think harassment is wrong (too bad the law doesn’t share your belief). However, about Romney and that secret temple of yours, are you now trying to tell us that you guys are encouraged to talk about it so much so that the LDS church wouldn’t mind an almost “open house” attitude about it. Strange, I thought you guarded the temple so much that even the non-Mormon parents of converts are not allowed to see their child wed–if the wedding is in the temple. Wonder if most of America (it’s not such a problem in Europe since convert children are not required to punish their parents in this way) knows about this negative publicity. And truly, you don’t think that this wouldn’t have come up should Romney continued with his Presidential bid?
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aspirant
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Personally, I dislike his utter insanity. I don’t blame that on either conservatives or Mormons.
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dianaiad
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Ma’am, I’m not the one who mentioned Mitt first, or claimed that the church was afraid that his election would cause our ‘secrets’ to be 'exposed. That was you. Please do not now pretend that you didn’t write what you wrote.
By the way…you might want to look up a little history. It wasn’t the CHURCH that had problems with a Mormon politician. It was the USA that refused to seat Sen. Smoot for, quite literally, YEARS because they didn’t like secrets–‘secrets’ that the church was quite willing to let congress wander all through. It was one of the more embarrasing episodes in US history, that a duly elected official was denied his ability to serve because of his religion. For you to come up with this faradiddle about the church being afraid is rather, well…
you did it, I didn’t.
What you call ‘harrassment’ is pretty piddledink compared to what WE have had to deal with…I will refer you again to Sen. Smoot’s problems trying to be a US Senator. Believe me, I personally have had to deal with harrassment because of my religion that makes what you just told me look like an award ceremony. Please pardon me if I"m not impressed.
Great googly moogly. What part of 'you can google it all you want to, it’s out there, but don’t ask US to discuss it with you because it is sacred to us" seemed to have zipped right over your head? What part of 'Only Mormons are allowed in and not even all Mormons can go." escaped your notice?
WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN?" All that DID ‘come up,’ ad nauseum.
What I would like to know is where you got all the stuff you wrote in post #82?
The thing is, the church did not 'take Romney aside." He didn’t quit…he lost; and part of the reason he lost is because Huckabee and others attacked his religion in precisely the manner you are now claiming the church wanted Romney to quit for fear of. This sort of attack isn’t new. It’s very old, very standard, and we’re used to it.
It’s very much like the stuff the CAtholics USED to get before Kennedy was elected, about how Catholics would be ruled from the Vatican.
The ironic thing is, we DO have Mormon politicians who are quite free to be as far left as they are far right; the church does not in any way interfere with their voting. The CHURCH is against abortion for most everything, but a Mormon who, in representing his constituents, votes for abortion isn’t going to be excommunicated. A CATHOLIC politician, however, is, and that excommunication is instant and automatic. AT least that is the argument going on; IS a vote for an abortion rights bill 'procuring an abortion…" which results in a latae sententiae excommunication, or isn’t it? Quite a few Catholic leaders say ‘yes,’ it is. In fact, a vote for a pro-abortion bill probably procures more actual abortions than anything any other one person could manage. I’ll wait for the fall out on that one, but I know that many of your leaders are rather vocal about it…what good Catholic politicians can, and cannot, vote for and remain communicants in the church.
…and to think that everybody is scared spitless of a Mormon. Unless of course his name is Harry Ried. I have to wonder about you guys, I truly do. I am especially curious about your own advanced state of paranoia.
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StevenFrancis
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I don’t know. How about L. Ron Hubbard? The Christ Scientists? The Seventh Day adventists? Follower of Jim Jones, Ruth Montgomery, Carlos Casteneda, Ouija boards, Mohammed, etc. etc. It’s been going on a long time. As long as man. Christ has opened an ordinary means of salvation through the Church established on Peter. All of us who have discovered this have a calling to spread the good news, and not keep it to ourselves. When we do spread it, though, we will always be hated, as our founder himself was hated. Just also remember, that even if it’s not while you’re pointing out the errors, a seed may be planted which will result in the saint who will eventually pray for you, and save you from years of purgation. Who knows? It’s okay to be frustrated. Just don’t quit.
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PaulDupre
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That’s true. When my wife and I left the LDS, the members spread all kinds of viscious lies about us in order to explain why we left. All of our so-called friends turned on us. We were accused of everything from drug and alcohol addiction to adultery and just about everything in between. None of it was true of course, but it was faith-promoting for them so even the bishop’s wife joined in the fun.
Interesting that my bishop, who was a friend of mine, admitted to me that he did not believe much of Mormonism either, but stayed in because it was a “good life” and his whole family was LDS. I think many, many LDS stay in for the same reasons. I could not live a lie, and most of my family is not LDS, but I can sympathize with those who feel that they can’t leave. It must be very sad for them.
Paul (a former Mormon, now happily Catholic)
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hosemonkey
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sablouwho
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Paul–thank you for sharing this with us. I had actually started another thread the other day called Former Mormon “de-conversion” stories, and I’d been meaning to ask you if you would share your story. Perhaps you could take a look at that thread and maybe tell us more about how/why you determined that the LDS thing was no longer something you wanted to be involved with?
Appreciate anything you care to share!
Appreciate anything you care to share!
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MrZetterlund
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Diana, I remember our argument about the “Book of Abraham.” (Which is odd that thanks to Mormonim, this is what this piece of papyre will always be remembered as.) It’s clear as bright Florida day-light that Joseph Smith did NOT translate the “Book of Abraham.” And it’s clear as day that THIS is the papyre he was refering too. It is also obvious that Native Americans ARE NOT Israelites, and the publishers of the BOM know this, and changed their BOMs to say “among the ancestors,” rather than “the principle ancestors.”
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hosemonkey
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If St. Michael the Archangel with a flaming sword appeared above the temple in Salt Lake City and proclaimed that Joseph Smith and the BOM was a total fraud and the spawn of Satan, backed up by ten choirs of cherubim and seraphim, most mormons are so brainwashed that it probably would not make any difference. We even had several mormons state that very fact on these forums. Uncomfortable revelations are simply explained away or ignored or dismissed as “attacks by Gentiles” upon mormonism. It is no sin to be ignorant, it is a sin to remain willfully so.
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dianaiad
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What you believe about the Book of Abraham is absolutely irrelevant, Mr. Z. I know that YOU think it is “clear as bright Florida day-light” that Joseph did not translate it. However, your conviction that he did not does NOT mean that I am really convinced that he did not, and am being deliberately hypocritical when I tell you that I believe he did. It is that mindset which I am talking about now. Miracles happen all over the place, and as a Catholic, you believe in miracles that I, frankly, don’t. However, I’m not about to tell you that just because I do not believe, you are a liar and a hypocrite because you believe.
As a Catholic you believe in transubstantiation; a very real conversion of the wine and wafers into the body and blood of Christ. I do not believe in that. I believe that communion is a symbol of His sacrifice, but remains the wine (or water or grape juice or…) and broken bread. Just because to me, it is ‘clear as bright Florida day-light’ that the wine and wafers remain wine and wafers doesn’t mean that I don’t understand very clearly that you believe that it changes. I do you the courtesy of accepting that you believe what you claim you do.
Please do us the same courtesy…or be prepared for a very cold reception. People don’t much like being told that they are hypocrites and liars simply because they disagree with you. It tends to put a rather large wall that blocks communication.
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AMDGtoo
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you mean “wine and bread”. (Went over this with you before. The Jews ate bread without leaven–matzah–for their Passover. Jesus is our Passover. Stands to reason that our unleavened bread may be formed—and when baked, appear as “wafers”, but those “wafers” as you call them, can be and are broken at Mass. I also mentioned that our Eastern Catholic brethern have traditionally used a bit of leaven, in their Communion and during preparation it is made “individual sized.” Not sure if the Eastern Orthodox use leaven or not, but they too believe Jesus’ words–that Communion is not a mere symbol.)
Oh, I know that you really believe that Joseph Smith was the hand behind the Book of Abraham. It’s just that scholars and all have no doubt that it was just a common Egyptian Funeral document. The scholars have even found the papyrus Joseph Smith used.
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dianaiad
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I think you are being picky about 'wafers" because you aren’t willing to address the substance of the argument. The point was what y’all believe ABOUT the wafers/broken bread/whatever, not whether they are wafers. This is called a strawman argument. Nor is what I wrote an attack upon those beliefs. It was a simple acknowledgement that you believe in transubstantiation and I don’t, and my acceptance that you believe what you claim you do.
Nor is this about whether the Book of Abraham was, or was not, translated correctly by Joseph Smith. It’s about Mr. Z’s assumption that those of use who believe differently from you are REALLY aware of the “Truth” as you see it, and are being dishonest and hypocritical when we disagree with you.
It’s about starting a conversation about these things with a basic understanding that the person you are talking to really does have faith in what he says he does. Just how likely is it that someone is going to listen to you, or even look at what you have to say, if he knows that you think he is a liar and a hypocrite?
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sablouwho
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Not that anyone asked me
, but my first-hand experience with LDS is that among those whom I know personally who are “orthodox”, well, they really DO believe. They are not lying about it.Sure, the “cafeteria” Mormon scholars whom I know (they are discrete in sacrament meeting/Sunday school since their beliefs are heterodox) are a different story. They don’t believe the whole enchilada, but they get enough out of being LDS that they stay even though they don’t accept the whole kit and kaboodle. However, I don’t consider them to be hypocrites or liars either. There are a variety of valid reasons to remain in a faith even if one doesn’t believe all of its teachings–family reasons, having been raised in that culture, etc.
Anyway, I am once again picking the “via media” here – while I don’t personally believe in the LDS faith, I generally like LDS people and it bothers me when they are called hypocrites and liars. That said, I am not looking to fight with Mr. Z either–he’s entitled to his opinion, even though I do disagree with it.
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AMDGtoo
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Dianaiad–I guess you didn’t really read my post. I said that I believe that you believe–even if even scholars don’t believe the story.
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MrZetterlund
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Sigh… Diana, I’m sorry if it came across to you in a way that convinces you that I think your a hypocrite. But the amount of evidence against Joseph Smith is overwhelming. And I’m certain it’s hard for Mormons to uphold these beliefs since they probably are well aware of how everyone else views their prophet. And why. If God hadn’t granted me the sword to smite down argumets against my religion i would have left it by now. -God Bless.
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dianaiad
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I did read it. I was pointing out that you were off topic.
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hosemonkey
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What we were both pointing out is the fact that you are entitled to believe anything that you like, even though the “Book of Abraham” has been proven to be a fraud. This, among a myriad of other things, casts the credibility and veracity of Joseph Smith into grave doubt. So-called “prophets of God” do not, as a rule, try to pull off clangers of the magnitude attempted by Joe Smith. Just sayin’.
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