Why all the Fuss on the Reformation?

[Isaiah45_9]

Well, no Jose…I’m not saying anyone broke a law—quite the opposite. What I am saying is that anyone who wants to know about the case can either research it on the several threads about it here on CAF (IIRC it even came up as a question on Ask an Apologist some years ago), read more on the web, or, better yet, read Kertzer’s book. The fact that I don’t own the book at home doesn’t make the research by Kertzer go away.

It was an analogy. You mentioned that it was a rule but didn’t provide what said rule is.

You seem to be saying that you think a beautified Pope acted as a maverick in a notorious affair which involved the concern of many countries in its day?

I didn’t know that the Pope was so ugly that he needed to be beautified.



Sorry, I could not resist

 

[Isaiah45_9]

I almost never resist the urge.

GKC

Sometimes, sometimes… I do.

 

[GKC]

I’d like to hear your thoughts on it.

I believe Kertzer is Jewish. I could see why someone might assume he’s overly emotionally involved or unjustly sensationalizing the case to call it a “kidnapping”, but from any parents’ perspective I think we each would probably consider it the same if it had happened to us.

Kertzer does seem to be Jewish.

The case is connected to the secular history of the unification of Italy, and the fall of the Papal States. I have a couple of other books on the period, but can’t say it is a serious focal point in my reading.

And whatever Kretzer’s book says, it becomes a data point, that may lead toward or away from any particular conclusion. One has to pursue the trail. Part of the reason I buy books.Main question would be: what was the Law?

But I’ll start.

GKC

 

[AbideWithMe]

It was an analogy. You mentioned that it was a rule but didn’t provide what said rule is.

I didn’t know that the Pope was so ugly that he needed to be beautified.



Sorry, I could not resist

I thought I did provide what was the rule of the time in the Papal States–a Christian child could not be raised by non-Christian parents, and Edgardo was considered a Christian by virtue of the maid baptizing him…but yes, I did not provide a location in a document for that rule because I’m going by a memory which doesn’t remember those kinds of specific legal details from a book I read some years ago.

There are many articles on the internet from Catholic and non-Catholic sources, available to all via Google, for those not reading the book, explaining that Pope Pius IX made his decision based on steadfastly, in good conscience, abiding by a rule, rather than being a despot. But again, Jose, if the book and articles are wrong, aren’t you accusing a beatified Pope of being wicked? I’m saying he was not.

 

[PRmerger]

If you’re balking over the use of “kidnap”, what word would you prefer be used to describe the taking away of a six year old child in this particular case?

Actually, I am “balking” over your claim that the members of my Church were following my Church’s teaching when they kidnapped this little boy.

You have been asked to show some evidence that this was the Church’s teaching.

Also, please note: “Papal States” (and how they governed) and “Civil Law” are NOT the same thing as doctrines and dogmas.

 

[PRmerger]

Correct, you reform from within - not from without.

Exactly.

And that is why some of the reformers are now some of the Church’s greatest saints.

To wit:
St. Catherine of Siena
St. Francis of Assisi
St. Teresa of Avila
St. John of the Cross
St. Charles Borromeo

 

[PRmerger]

My friend,

Unless you can cite the law, you should not make the accusation/claim.

Imagine being arrested on the grounds that you broke a law somewhere in the Penal Code, and it’s up to you to figure it out.

 

[PRmerger]

It was an analogy. You mentioned that it was a rule but didn’t provide what said rule is.

:coffeeread:

 

[PRmerger]

I thought I did provide what was the rule of the time in the Papal States–

Firstly, what Papal State was it?

Secondly, what was the rule?

Thirdly, those 2 questions are really beside the point, anyway (although I am very interested in your answer) because…my point was that bad people in the Church are NOT following the rules (meaning: not following Church teaching. I was NOT referencing some civil governance policy, whether it be a “Papal State” policy for governing the people, or the secular govt (which, BTW, wasn’t secular at all).

Thus, the kidnapping of a boy with the sanction of a pope doesn’t refute my point. At all.

Here was my original position, which still stands correct.

So here’s the problem with your “just as”.

The hierarchy’s ugly problems (of which there are many) are an example of men who are NOT FOLLOWING the rules. They are not taking the medicine offered by the Church. Rather, they have dismissed the teachings of the Church and “protested”, or, went on their own and decided to…cheat, lie, steal, and [fill in the blank with whatever sin you like].

The tens of thousands of differing denominations, however, are merely following the rules. They are saying, “We have the right to divorce ourselves from the branch upon which we hang.”

And thus, when they follow that paradigm, you have the obscenity of tens of thousands of denominations.

 

[FathersKnowBest]

The illumination was that to solve the problem of Judaizers, who could have destroyed the work of the spirit in “paul’s” churches making his work “vain”, to go to the source of the problem and counter it with church leaders at the “source” (Jerusalem). Hence the “private” meeting. Paul did not need affirmation but strategic help against the judaizers.

Absolutely NOT!

Where did you get THAT from?

Ga 2:2 I went up by revelation; and I laid before them (but privately before those who were of repute)** the gospel which I preach** among the Gentiles, lest somehow I should be running or had run in vain.

SCRUPTURE SAYS that he was confirming the gospel which he (St. Paul) preaches.

 

[fhansen]

I continually see threads here on the Reformation and its issues. It’s like if hubby and I had a fight thirty years ago and he keeps bringing it up, even though he and I both agreed, then, that the issues were settled. Both Catholics and Protestants (uh, western, non-Catholic Christians) have moved along from what happened 500 years ago. Why are people dealing with it as if we are frozen in time and nothing has happened since then?

The Reformation led to deformation. For example, taken to its extreme “justification by faith alone”, with its counterpart doctrine of “imputed righteousness” leads to spiritual sloth or anti-nomianism. Man remains the same, a sinner, but now he’s justified by God in doing so! Perhaps Calvinism especially produces a false sense of security and arrogance-not to mention priggishness-in those who conceive themselves to be numbered among the “elect”. Their God becomes pettier, an autocrat, arbitrarily electing some to eternal life, the rest to damnation, based on a false understanding of the role of grace, free will, and God’s sovereignty.

Fortunately these excesses aren’t necessarily acted upon by the average Protestant, who generally lives as if what they do counts in God’s eyes, but they subtly contribute to misconceptions in the collective mind; concepts of God’s nature and will being distorted and undermined, Christianity made to look foolish.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

I thought I did provide what was the rule of the time in the Papal States–a Christian child could not be raised by non-Christian parents, and Edgardo was considered a Christian by virtue of the maid baptizing him…but yes, I did not provide a location in a document for that rule because I’m going by a memory which doesn’t remember those kinds of specific legal details from a book I read some years ago.

That exactly why it fits the analogy of violating a crime in the penal code. You give the reference to the book but the “rule” is still absent. You are the one who mentioned the rule. The burden of proof is for you to provide it.

There are many articles on the internet from Catholic and non-Catholic sources, available to all via Google, for those not reading the book, explaining that Pope Pius IX made his decision based on steadfastly, in good conscience, abiding by a rule, rather than being a despot. But again, Jose, if the book and articles are wrong, aren’t you accusing a beatified Pope of being wicked? I’m saying he was not.

We are all wicked to some degree. For example, I have a wicked sense of humor .

But seriously, why would I say that he was being wicked? As far as I can tell, Augustine is a saint as well. That doesn’t mean he wasn’t the [party animal] he actually was in his earlier years.

In the absence of said rule that obliges the Pope to act, I am left with said being motivated by his own initiative.

Unless you can find this alleged rule.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

:coffeeread:

:yukonjoe:

 

[GKC]

That exactly why it fits the analogy of violating a crime in the penal code. You give the reference to the book but the “rule” is still absent. You are the one who mentioned the rule. The burden of proof is for you to provide it.

We are all wicked to some degree. For example, I have a wicked sense of humor .

But seriously, why would I say that he was being wicked? As far as I can tell, Augustine is a saint as well. That doesn’t mean he wasn’t the [party animal] he actually was in his earlier years.

In the absence of said rule that obliges the Pope to act, I am left with said being motivated by his own initiative.

Unless you can find this alleged rule.

Patience. He’s not the book guy. I am.

Not saying what I will find, but will say what I find.

GKC

 

[pablope]

Exactly.

And that is why some of the reformers are now some of the Church’s greatest saints.

To wit:
St. Catherine of Siena
St. Francis of Assisi
St. Teresa of Avila
St. John of the Cross
St. Charles Borromeo

And Catherine and Francis became stigmatics. I am not sure about Teresa of Avila, but I know she is one of the incorruptibles.

 

[AbideWithMe]

Patience. He’s not the book guy. I am.

Not saying what I will find, but will say what I find.

GKC

Hey, I’m not a guy at all! I’m not the book girl, though, indeed—I’m the art supplies collector. I have no room left in my studio for all my various supplies and tools and equipment, and right now I’m setting up shelving from Lowes in my basement and happily arranging supplies by color and material.

 

[JRKH]

Originally Posted by benhur
The illumination was that to solve the problem of Judaizers, who could have destroyed the work of the spirit in “paul’s” churches making his work “vain”, to go to the source of the problem and counter it with church leaders at the “source” (Jerusalem). Hence the “private” meeting. Paul did not need affirmation but strategic help against the judaizers.

Agreed, there is nothing in the Galatians passage to indicate that this private meeting had anything to do with the issue of the Judaizers. In that case, Paul was sent, not by revelation, but by the Church in Antioch and the issue was not a matter of private meeting, but of open council.

The matter described in Galatians is simply one of Paul checking in with the other Apostles - in particular Peter and James - to make sure they were all on the same page. That there was no conflict in their teachings.

Peace
James

 

[AbideWithMe]

PRmerger—For a quick answer at this time, please use the CAF search function and enter “Mortara” under the Ask an Apologist forum. I’ll quote the answers later today.

 

[guanophore]

Can you cite the magisterial document that states that a Christian child could not be raised by non-Christian parents?

Or better, any rule or teaching that states a child can be baptized against the will of the parents/guardian.

 

[GKC]

Hey, I’m not a guy at all! I’m not the book girl, though, indeed—I’m the art supplies collector. I have no room left in my studio for all my various supplies and tools and equipment, and right now I’m setting up shelving from Lowes in my basement and happily arranging supplies by color and material.

Oops.

I;m still plotting the 1000 sq. ft. addition to the house, configured exclusively as a library.

Which would marginally help my book storage problem.

Marginally.

GKC