Why are 20% of Nobel Prize winners Jewish?

[Metamorphoo]

The Catholic church also condemns replacement theology or supersessionism. God has committed Himself to blessing the nation of Israel in spite of her unfaithfulness.

When did the RCC reject supercessionism/replacement theology? My undestanding is that this has been the historic perspective of the RCC for many, many centuries. And if it doesn’t accept this theological perspective, what one describes what the RCC adheres to? My understanding is that the RCC rejects dual covenant theology. Does it accept what is sometimes called Olive Tree theology? If none of these, then what is its position? What is the Church’s relationship to Israel according to the RCC?

 

[Nine_Two]

In an article I read:

*"The Archbishop for Greek Melkites in the United States, Cyril Salim Bustros, declared at the end of the synod that the biblical concept of a promised land for the Jews “cannot be used as a basis to justify the return of the Jews to Israel” because the original promise made by God to the children of Israel “was nullified by Christ. There is no longer a chosen people.” *

So this bishop is right or wrong in saying this? Are the Jews still the chosen people or is that transferred to the church?

Eastern Theology is very much in favour of what has been called “Replacement theory” in this thread.

The Jews have lost their inheritance, and God has raised Children of Abraham from the very stones.

 

[Hokomai]

If Marx had been in Germany in the 1930’s or 1940’s, he’d have been hauled off to the concentration camps as a Jew, Lutheran or otherwise, regardless of any other reasons.

%between%

So we think the Nazis are the right people to define who is Jewish? Of course, Marx would have been hauled off to a concentration camp before the Jewish killings started, as a communist.

 

[kch86]

Eastern Theology is very much in favour of what has been called “Replacement theory” in this thread.

The Jews have lost their inheritance, and God has raised Children of Abraham from the very stones.

I think that is in accordance with Christianity in general, but for some Protestant sects.

 

[Credo_ergo_sum]

Eastern Theology is very much in favour of what has been called “Replacement theory” in this thread.

The Jews have lost their inheritance, and God has raised Children of Abraham from the very stones.

I knew that, I though some posters were insinuating that the RCC somehow changed positions, and therefore I asked if what this bishop said was orthodox. Luckily, it turns out the RCC didn’t change positions.

 

[nordskoven]

The Old Covenant has NOT been abrogated and superseded if that is to imply that Christ’s words that the non-Messianic Jews (Catholics are Messianic Jews, ingrafted and adopted into the Chosen People) are under the regency of Moses, and will be judged by Moses. Sounds like the Old Covenant is still up and running, eh? But it’s a tough go. Christ fulfilled the Old Covenant, and created the long-prophesied “New and Eternal Covenant” that commands loving obedience to a few simple things and lavishly gracious Sacraments. Non-Hebrew Catholics are NOT a new “Chosen People” but are signing on as adopted and ingrafted into Christ’s Jewish family with the Virgin Mary as our Jewish mama, the “other children” of the Woman Clothed with the Sun in John’s Apocalypse, CH. 12. Mazel tov!

 

[Credo_ergo_sum]

The Old Covenant has NOT been abrogated and superseded if that is to imply that Christ’s words that the non-Messianic Jews (Catholics are Messianic Jews, ingrafted and adopted into the Chosen People) are under the regency of Moses, and will be judged by Moses. Sounds like the Old Covenant is still up and running, eh? But it’s a tough go. Christ fulfilled the Old Covenant, and created the long-prophesied “New and Eternal Covenant” that commands loving obedience to a few simple things and lavishly gracious Sacraments. Non-Hebrew Catholics are NOT a new “Chosen People” but are signing on as adopted and ingrafted into Christ’s Jewish family with the Virgin Mary as our Jewish mama, the “other children” of the Woman Clothed with the Sun in John’s Apocalypse, CH. 12. Mazel tov!

So according to you the OT is still salvific or not?

 

[nordskoven]

“Pray for the peace of Jerusalem.”

If replacement theology were valid, we would be commanded in the Old and New Testament to pray for the peace of Vatican City. God’s command is absolute. Those who are baptized are ingrafted and adopted into the Chosen People, not replacing them. Adoption counts for 100% sonship. No shame in that game. So get to work on your Nobel Prize-winning magnum opus. Or just have the empty suits declare you Nobel Prize worthy, as they did for Barak Obama; or declare you winner of the Cannes Film Festival as was Al Gore and his “documentary,” elbowing out as it did more critically-acclaimed entrants.

 

[kch86]

The Old Covenant has NOT been abrogated and superseded if that is to imply that Christ’s words that the non-Messianic Jews (Catholics are Messianic Jews, ingrafted and adopted into the Chosen People) are under the regency of Moses, and will be judged by Moses.

Ouch. That was difficult to parse. My brain hurts. I think that’s a very complicated but incomplete sentence because the subject, “Christ’s words,” modified by the relative clause, “that [Jews] are under the regency of Moses and will be judged by Moses,” lacks a predicate (a verb and whatever else that would be necessary to form a complete sentence).

What did you want to say that the abrogation or supersession of the Old Covenant would imply about Christ’s words?

Sounds like the Old Covenant is still up and running, eh?

Yes. Jesus did not come to abolish the Law but to fulfil it. However, it is impossible to be saved under the Law because it is impossible to keep, as all men are sinful. Jesus Christ is absolutely necessary for the salvation of those who follow the Law and for everybody else. So the Old Covenant, is still valid and “up and running” but has been rendered irrelevant with respect to salvation.

Christ fulfilled the Old Covenant, and created the long-prophesied “New and Eternal Covenant” that commands loving obedience to a few simple things and lavishly gracious Sacraments. Non-Hebrew Catholics are NOT a new “Chosen People” but are signing on as adopted and ingrafted into Christ’s Jewish family with the Virgin Mary as our Jewish mama, the “other children” of the Woman Clothed with the Sun in John’s Apocalypse, CH. 12. Mazel tov!

Agreed.

 

[Metamorphoo]

Eastern Theology is very much in favour of what has been called “Replacement theory” in this thread.

The Jews have lost their inheritance, and God has raised Children of Abraham from the very stones.

From a biblical standpoint, how do you defend the position that the Jews have lost their inheritance?

Jeremiah 31:31-37 is the passage which prophesies the coming of the New Covenant. It is important to note that the promise of this covenant was made to the “house of Israel” and “the house of Judah”–clearly speaking in plain language of the Hebrew people. Verse 37 states that “if the heavens above can be measured and the foundations of the earth searched out below, then I will cast off all the offspring of Israel for all that they have done says the Lord.” The point being made: you can’t measure the heaven or search out the foundations of the earth below–and I’m not going to reject ALL of Israel for their sins.

Read Romans 11–and read it carefully. Paul makes it crystal clear that God has rejected unbelieving Jews–but His covenant promises remain intact to the faithful Jewish remnant, of whom Paul was one. Gentiles were at one time “excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise” (Eph. 2:12). It is only through their faith in Christ and by His shed blood that Gentiles have been grafted in to Israel, becoming “fellow citizens” with Jewish believers. (Eph. 2:13, 17-19)

Paul warned the wild olive branches (Gentile believers) against becoming arrogant about the fact that they have been grafted in to the cultivated tree (the Hebrew people) by faith, while some of the cultivated olive branches were cut off because of their unbelief. Since Christendom has been primarily Gentile for the bulk of its history, I think it is imperative that Gentile believers take Paul’s warning to heart. Replacement theology is simply arrogant theology.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

So we think the Nazis are the right people to define who is Jewish? Of course, Marx would have been hauled off to a concentration camp before the Jewish killings started, as a communist.

I think we may as well split the difference - you regard him as a Gentile, I’ll regard him as a Jew.

Obviously you missed what I meant by “regardess of any other reason”, by which I was implying he’d have been executed as a communist.

 

[Hokomai]

I think we may as well split the difference - you regard him as a Gentile, I’ll regard him as a Jew.

Obviously you missed what I meant by “regardess of any other reason”, by which I was implying he’d have been executed as a communist.

Apologies - I misunderstood. Recently (for no reason at all, I’m just like that) I read up on Israeli “right of return” law, which allows Jews to ‘return’ to Israel. From memory, 'Jews" are excluded who would otherwise be allowed in, if their ancestor has willingly converted from Judaism. I think Marx would have missed out, in the unlikely event that he had sought to emigrate to Israel (although many of his followers did).

 

[Jerusha]

Well, I settled my agenda for this thread. Thank you.

 

[Khalid]

The Catholic church also condemns replacement theology or supersessionism. God has committed Himself to blessing the nation of Israel in spite of her unfaithfulness.

He chose to bless the world through Abraham, Isaac and Jacob – Israel and the world is blessed through numerous advancements discovered by their descendants, the Jews. Why would God cease to bless these people when the Jews unknowingly point the world to His very existence. The Jews is a living reminder the God who made a promise in the scriptures, is true to his words.

Official Church document please? (I know Nostra aetate’s teaching, and it does not condemn supersessionism per se, which has been infallibly taught by the Magisterium since the time of St Justin Martyr - famous for, “your scriptures - no, not your scriptures, but ours” in the dialogue with Trypho - probably since of Barnabas, in the Epistle of Barnabas).

I support the State of Israel, but not for religious reasons. I am not an anti-Semite nor a philo-Semite.

Religiously, the Jews have been irrevocably cut off from the tree after the fall of the Temple - at that moment, the Old Testament religion ceased to exist and modern Rabbinic Judaism was born, at Jamnia - until they are grafted back in through accepting Christ as Savior, Messiah, Son of God, etc. and joining the Church. Their covenant has been revoked (fulfilled, is more accurate, but the Mosaic covenant no longer is valid) - to believe elsewise is to believe in the heresy of dual-covenant theology - and, unless they convert, they are not saved and have no grace. Neither do Mormons, Arians, nor any number of other groups, but both Jews and Mormons can be fine people socially - as evidenced by this thread, Jews excel in academia and in learning - but religiously they are lost.

Also, the modern State of Israel has no even tangential relation to the Land or People of Israel of the Bible except by sitting on some of the same land. It would be impossible to constitute it in any case: 10 tribes have been lost for 2500 years, and no one can tell even which of the remaining two they belong to today.

Jesus, Mary, Joseph are, I did not say were, are Jews. All the Apostles are.

The Blessed Virgin was the first proselyte to Christianity. Jesus founded the religion, even though he was a Jew himself - he fulfilled the law, and then abolished it when Jerusalem fell (“until this is accomplished nothing will pass from the law”). I don’t know what happened to St Joseph, because he’s not mentioned again in the NT after Jesus’ birth. All of the Apostles were Christian proselytes from Judaism. All of the NT authors are too, except for St Luke, who was the first of the People of the New Covenant, to be grafted on to the tree which would soon be purged in 70 AD, as Jesus demonstrates in several of his parables and sayings. St Paul is even more prototypically a man of the New Covenant, even though he was a Jew first: “for I am all to all, so that I might save some.”

Some of the posts here in panegyric to Jews are almost like Nazism in reverse. “Oh, the Jews can do no wrong, they are a light to the nations, whatever they will do, God blesses them”. Christians are the light to the nations - our Lord said it himself, “that you shall not put a lamp under a bushel basket, and a city built on a hill can not be hidden”. If you believe what you say, you should convert to Judaism, because you’re getting the very short end of the stick as a Christian: you’re a second-class chosen people, who do not excel in what they choose to do. However, this mindless philo-Semitism is far better than anti-Semitism if only because irrational love is generally less offensive than irrational hatred.

 

[Khalid]

Such OTT philosemitism smacks of supremacism and really invites one to seek contrary examples. The Jews have no more a monopoly on the improvement of mankind than Gentiles have a monopoly on its decline.

The Jews are an ethno-religious group like any other, and they are sinful people no different to you and me. God has chosen the Jews to reveal the truth of Christianity to the world and they were God’s chosen people by virtue of accepting the true faith and not as a result of their genetic lineage. Gentiles became and ethnic Jews continued to be God’s chosen people insofar as they accepted or continued to accept the true faith, which after the coming of the Messiah means they became Christian.

Of course, this does nothing to take away the many positive contributions of those Jews, secular and religious, to the progress of mankind. But my contention is that it is a cultural attribute and not a result of divine election.

If we were to categorise the “chosen-ness” of ethnicities by their academic achievements, we would soon find ourselves descending down the slippery slope of religiously-motivated racism.

Thank you.

 

[Khalid]

So Israel exists outside of the Church? That is the teaching of the Catholic Church?

No, it is not. The Church teaches that the Church is Israel. The gift of the Jews was to bring the world Christianity (along with receiving the first covenant, valid for 1400 years, and having all of the prophets, etc. in their race according to the flesh) as a close reading of 839 will shows.

If one falls back to personal interpretation of the Catechism and proof-texting from it, that’s not far away from sola scriptura Protestantism - just with a new “Bible”.

 

[Khalid]

They are in a higher position than the other non-Christian religions because our religion is an off-shoot of theirs. But, beyond that??

Most definitely. They’re the only other religion to have ever had a valid covenant. Beyond that - nothing.

 

[po18guy]

From Sunday’s mass reading comes an explanation:

Genesis 22:18 RSV-CE

“and by your (Abraham’s) descendants shall all the nations of the earth bless themselves, because you have obeyed my voice.”

 

[chosen_people]

Apologies - I misunderstood. Recently (for no reason at all, I’m just like that) I read up on Israeli “right of return” law, which allows Jews to ‘return’ to Israel. From memory, 'Jews" are excluded who would otherwise be allowed in, if their ancestor has willingly converted from Judaism. I think Marx would have missed out, in the unlikely event that he had sought to emigrate to Israel (although many of his followers did).

The definition of a Jew under the law of return is not the definition of a Jew under Jewish law. It is the definition of a Jew under Nazi Germany. It is the lesson learned when the world closed their borders to the Jews (see: the United States and the ship the St. Louis, see Canada and “no Jews are too many Jews”’ see Britain and the 1939 White Paper for Palestine etc. as well as the behavior of the world after the Holocaust and their refusal to accept the survivors, how Jews continued to rot in internment camps, Kielce Poland, the non reunification of rescued Jewish children back to their Jewish families etc.). The law promises that any “Jew” has a place of refuge, Israel insures that this will never be allowed to happen again.

 

[GraceDK]

I’m pretty sure this is heterodox. The Church is the New Israel, and the Old Covenant has been abrogated and superseded.

This has been the constant teaching of the Church since the late first century, when, after the Temple fell, the remaining Jews did not accept the Messiah had come and went to work building a new religion, Rabbinic Judaism.

The only groups that I know of that think Jews are still the chosen people are dispensationalist, end-times fanatical Protestants, and Orthodox Jews. Not even Reformed Jews believe Jews are the chosen people!

Hi Khalid.

The Letter to the Romans 11:1-25:
“I now ask: Has God then rejected His People? Absolutely not. I myself am Israelite, of the line of Abraham, the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected His People, whom he has first accepted. (…) But if some of the branches have been broken off and you, who are the branch of a wild olive tree, have been crafted in among the branches (on the noble olive tree) and also receive the moisture from the root of the* real tree*, do not become arrogant * remember its not you who carry the root but the root that carries you. *(… ) a blindness/hardness id resting over part of Israel until the gentiles have come in in full numbers, Then all of Israel will be saved.
Regarding the Gospel they are enemies, and they are so for your sake, but regarding the ELECTION they are loved, and they are so for the sake of the Fathers. For God does not regret His promises and calling”. (my translation)

The binding writings from the councils rest on these words, and for that reason the jewish people and its continual special role in Salvation History is recognised and the Jewish people are given the noble title: Our older brothers in the faith.

There have been many who were jealous of this election throughout history.