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DRIVING_BEAR
Guest
First off jews make up 1/3 of nobel prize winners in the math and science fields
Second the original question was not Anti semitic .
Second the original question was not Anti semitic .
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Bob_Crowley
Guest
Marx’s long term inheritance was Jewish, and very strongly so. His father turned to Lutheranism for purely pragmatic reasons, due to a Prussian edict denying Jews entrance to the bar, and he was a lawyer. In other words, he became “Christian” not for reasons of faith, but simple pragmatism. Nor is there any evidence they practised their new “religion”.
If Marx had been in Germany in the 1930’s or 1940’s, he’d have been hauled off to the concentration camps as a Jew, Lutheran or otherwise, regardless of any other reasons.
From Wikipedia -
[QUOTEKarl Heinrich Marx was born on 5 May 1818 at 664 Brückergasse in Trier, a town located in the Kingdom of Prussia’s Province of the Lower Rhine.[12]
His ancestry was Jewish, with his paternal line having supplied the rabbis of Trier since 1723, a role that had been taken up by his own grandfather, Meier Halevi Marx; Meier’s son and Karl’s father would be the first in the line to receive a secular education.[13] His maternal grandfather was a Dutch rabbi.[14] Karl’s father, Herschel Marx, was middle-class and relatively wealthy: the family owned a number of Moselle vineyards; he converted from Judaism to the Protestant Christian denomination of Lutheranism prior to his son’s birth, taking on the German forename of Heinrich over Herschel.[3] In 1815, he began working as an attorney and in 1819 moved his family from a five-room rented apartment into a ten-room property near the Porta Nigra.[15] A man of the Enlightenment, Heinrich Marx was interested in the ideas of the philosophers Immanuel Kant and Voltaire, and took part in agitation for a constitution and reforms in Prussia, which was then governed by an absolute monarchy.[16] Karl’s mother, born Henrietta Pressburg, was a Dutch Jew who, unlike her husband, was only semi-literate. She claimed to suffer from “excessive mother love”, devoting much time to her family, and insisting on cleanliness within her home.[17] She was from a prosperous business family. Her family later founded the company Philips Electronics: she was great-aunt to Anton and Gerard Philips, and great-great-aunt to Frits Philips. Her brother, Marx’s uncle Benjamin Philips (1830-1900), was a wealthy banker and industrialist, who Karl and Jenny Marx would later often come rely upon for loans, while they were exiled in London.[18]
Heinrich Marx converted to Lutheran Protestantism in 1816 or 1817 in order to continue practicing law after the Prussian edict denying Jews to the bar. Karl was born in 1818 and baptized in 1824, but his mother, Henriette, did not convert until 1825, when Karl was 7. There is no evidence that the Marx family actually embraced Lutheranism, although there is no evidence they were practicing Jews. Marx’s Jewishness is thus a particularly complex issue.[19][20][21]
From Wikipedia - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Jewish_Question
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trdchubi
Guest
The Catholic church also condemns replacement theology or supersessionism. God has committed Himself to blessing the nation of Israel in spite of her unfaithfulness.
He chose to bless the world through Abraham, Isaac and Jacob – Israel and the world is blessed through numerous advancements discovered by their descendants, the Jews. Why would God cease to bless these people when the Jews unknowingly point the world to His very existence. The Jews is a living reminder the God who made a promise in the scriptures, is true to his words.
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Pfaffenhoffen
Guest
I see that you are an Ex-Muslim Melkite, so I think it is better not to dwell into it for it is sensitive. I guess God did not left His People. I have justification for that, but I prefer not to deal with a sensitive subject.
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Pfaffenhoffen
Guest
I doubt it is only that.
I am very surprised. I thought it would be Chinese or Japanese. Asians constitute one fourth of MIT entries.
I do not want to discuss aggressively this but with someone who coldly wants to dwell on it, it is an interesting fact.
Jews are the Chosen People of God. Jesus, Mary, Joseph are, I did not say were, are Jews. All the Apostles are. God did not forget them. God punished them more than any people in the History of Mankind, 2000 years of suffering ending with the Shoah.
I compare the Calvary of the Jewish People to the Cross of Jesus Christ.
They looked always into the future: “Next year in Jerusalem!” it was the promise Grandfathers taught grandchildren. And I am not dwelling into politics and Muslims do not enter here. It was always so even 500 years before Mohammed existed.
Moreover, they were not allowed into many trades in Catholic Countries, so they resorted to trade. And they read, read since the old times, when even in Europe, everybody was unanalphabet.
This trend to the future, this Messianic View coupled with the memorization of the Torah gave the Jews the tools to look into the future in Science and Culture.
There are more political vies that I have but, though I think they are true, they are explosive in today’s sensitive feelings and in the context of Israel existance. So, I am keeping them to myself.
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trdchubi
Guest
I guess it is naturally built on the Jews to be this way - brilliant in every field they choose to be in. As the scriptures says it, “they will be numerous as the stars in the heaven”.
They literally light up the night skies, and showed their radiance for the improvement of mankind.
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kch86
Guest
Such OTT philosemitism smacks of supremacism and really invites one to seek contrary examples. The Jews have no more a monopoly on the improvement of mankind than Gentiles have a monopoly on its decline.
The Jews are an ethno-religious group like any other, and they are sinful people no different to you and me. God has chosen the Jews to reveal the truth of Christianity to the world and they were God’s chosen people by virtue of accepting the true faith and not as a result of their genetic lineage. Gentiles became and ethnic Jews continued to be God’s chosen people insofar as they accepted or continued to accept the true faith, which after the coming of the Messiah means they became Christian.
Of course, this does nothing to take away the many positive contributions of those Jews, secular and religious, to the progress of mankind. But my contention is that it is a cultural attribute and not a result of divine election.
If we were to categorise the “chosen-ness” of ethnicities by their academic achievements, we would soon find ourselves descending down the slippery slope of religiously-motivated racism.
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Jerusha
Guest
I found it. Thank you.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM
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Credo_ergo_sum
Guest
Can anyone confirm this is true? Even Church Fathers such as St. Justin Martyr, St. Augustine and Origen taught that Israel is the Church.
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Jerusha
Guest
Yes-- where is the historical context of CCC 839?
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Credo_ergo_sum
Guest
So Israel exists outside of the Church? That is the teaching of the Catholic Church?
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Jerusha
Guest
Yes. That is what the Catechism of the Catholic church says therefore it is Catholic doctrine.
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kch86
Guest
No. Supersessionism is a word used in Protestant theology, but it is certainly not condemned by the Catholic Church, and it forms one of the very basic tenets of Christianity. The Old Covenant is no longer salvific and it is only through New Covenant of Jesus Christ that one may be saved. It is stated clearly in Scripture: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
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Credo_ergo_sum
Guest
In an article I read:
*"The Archbishop for Greek Melkites in the United States, Cyril Salim Bustros, declared at the end of the synod that the biblical concept of a promised land for the Jews “cannot be used as a basis to justify the return of the Jews to Israel” because the original promise made by God to the children of Israel “was nullified by Christ. There is no longer a chosen people.” *
So this bishop is right or wrong in saying this? Are the Jews still the chosen people or is that transferred to the church?
Oh, that’s very good. I was getting afraid the CC had changed this doctrine but luckily this isn’t the case.
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Jerusha
Guest
But, kch86, after the destruction of the Temple, in 70 AD, the Jews switched from Temple Judaism to Rabbinical Judaism, therefore they ceased to practice much of the Old Covenant. .
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Jerusha
Guest
They are in a higher position than the other non-Christian religions because our religion is an off-shoot of theirs. But, beyond that??
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Jerusha
Guest
More specifically, I need to know if the Catholic Church has ever unequivocally rejected any teaching that today’s Jews are responsible for the Crucifixion because of ancestral guilt.
“Forgive them, because they know not what they do.” is a very firm statement.
Contrast that with Joseph Smith’s Doctrines & Covenants # 121.
I am currently reading “Quo Vadis” Might give me some answers.
“Forgive them, because they know not what they do.” is a very firm statement.
Contrast that with Joseph Smith’s Doctrines & Covenants # 121.
I am currently reading “Quo Vadis” Might give me some answers.
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kch86
Guest
That’s my point. The position of Judaism is comparable to that of Islam. Yes, it is an Abrahamic faith, which is better than paganism, but it’s still incomplete and erroneous. Jews who reject the Messiah are more or less in the same position as Muslims.
Whatever form of Judaism is practised today, whether it’s similar to what was practised before the coming of the Messiah or not, it is not salvific. While the Old Covenant was never revoked, it was fulfilled and superseded by the New Covenant.
I believe that Vatican II’s Nostra Aetate stated something to that effect, saying that it wasn’t all the Jews present at the time who were responsible for Jesus’ death, and so neither can the Jews of today be held responsible.
As far as I’m concerned, that makes sense.
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chosen_people
Guest
Jews win Nobel Prizes at a rate 115 times greater than their proportion in the population. As to the Pulitzer prize, Joseph Pulitzer was of course Jewish and here too Jewish prize winners far exceed their proportion in the population. Here are some facts that can give the general idea: (Jews make up 2% of the US population and 0.2% of the world’s population)
100% CA Senators 1996
85% College age jews in college
76% Most influential intellectuals Alan Dershowitz
60% Yale Grad students
60% Top Hollywood positions 60 min
58% Directors, writers, producers in 2 or more TV series
50+ Clinton Cabinet
50% Greg McDivitt estimate of “Millionaire” contestants
50- nearly half of money spent in democratic primaries from jewish contrib
40% Partners at best NY and DC law firms
40% American Nobel laureates science economics
20-30% Westinghouse Science Prize
30% Faculty at elite college
30% Supreme Court law clerks
27% Ivy League Survey
26% Reporters, editors, execs in print broadcast media
26% US Law Professors (Volokh UCLA)
25% ACM Turing Award
23% 1982 Forbes 500 richest Americans
23% Top 100 wealthy Canadians
21% High level civil servants
17% Boston Symphony Strings
17% Nobel Physiology and Medicine
16% Time Most Important 25
15% McArthur “Genius” Awards 1981-97
15% Time 20 20th Century Inventors
15% USA Today College Academic Team
14% Clinton Cabinet 1997
13% senior corp exec under 40
11% Nobel Physics Prize
10% Pulitzer 1997
10% US Senate
10% US college faculty
8% Who’s Who 1975
7.7% Corporate Boards
7.4% senior corporate exec
7.0% Forbes HiTech 100 1997
4.0% College presidents 1988
3.0% US Voters 1996
2.0% US Population
2.0% Who’s Who 1944
0.2% World Popluation
Jews only began for the first time to be allowed to integrate into the general population and to be granted citizenship in the countries where they lived, in the last two hundred years. Even as they were gradually allowed to attend Universities they were subject to strict college admission quotas. It is perhaps only in the last few decades that they have enjoyed anything close to non discriminatory practices in employment, education or being able to join social groups and clubs (compare Who’s Who 1944 with Who’s Who 1975 in the list above)
Jewish intellectual prowess has its roots in the Jewish religion which is an intellectual religion which invites and welcomes questioning, reasoning and thinking.
100% CA Senators 1996
85% College age jews in college
76% Most influential intellectuals Alan Dershowitz
60% Yale Grad students
60% Top Hollywood positions 60 min
58% Directors, writers, producers in 2 or more TV series
50+ Clinton Cabinet
50% Greg McDivitt estimate of “Millionaire” contestants
50- nearly half of money spent in democratic primaries from jewish contrib
40% Partners at best NY and DC law firms
40% American Nobel laureates science economics
20-30% Westinghouse Science Prize
30% Faculty at elite college
30% Supreme Court law clerks
27% Ivy League Survey
26% Reporters, editors, execs in print broadcast media
26% US Law Professors (Volokh UCLA)
25% ACM Turing Award
23% 1982 Forbes 500 richest Americans
23% Top 100 wealthy Canadians
21% High level civil servants
17% Boston Symphony Strings
17% Nobel Physiology and Medicine
16% Time Most Important 25
15% McArthur “Genius” Awards 1981-97
15% Time 20 20th Century Inventors
15% USA Today College Academic Team
14% Clinton Cabinet 1997
13% senior corp exec under 40
11% Nobel Physics Prize
10% Pulitzer 1997
10% US Senate
10% US college faculty
8% Who’s Who 1975
7.7% Corporate Boards
7.4% senior corporate exec
7.0% Forbes HiTech 100 1997
4.0% College presidents 1988
3.0% US Voters 1996
2.0% US Population
2.0% Who’s Who 1944
0.2% World Popluation
Jews only began for the first time to be allowed to integrate into the general population and to be granted citizenship in the countries where they lived, in the last two hundred years. Even as they were gradually allowed to attend Universities they were subject to strict college admission quotas. It is perhaps only in the last few decades that they have enjoyed anything close to non discriminatory practices in employment, education or being able to join social groups and clubs (compare Who’s Who 1944 with Who’s Who 1975 in the list above)
Jewish intellectual prowess has its roots in the Jewish religion which is an intellectual religion which invites and welcomes questioning, reasoning and thinking.
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Jerusha
Guest
I’ll read it. The analogy that Mormons hold is so be easily refuted that it is laughable.
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