Why are Catholics often this way?

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ESTESBOB:

I explained this numerous times, but maybe you missed it, or maybe I didn’t mention it here in this thread.

I wound up on this forum a few weeks ago, after the death of my mother. She had once told me about some legends she recalled from (Catholic) childhood, about Holy Week.

I wanted to do a websearch to find out where those legends originated, and when I Googled “holy week+customs”, I ended up on Catholic Answers.

I did get my questions answered here, and then noticed some threads about converting Jews to Catholicism, which of course piqued my interest as a deeply committed Jew.

And that,. my friend, is how I ended up here.
 
ESTESBOB:

I explained this numerous times, but maybe you missed it, or maybe I didn’t mention it here in this thread.

I wound up on this forum a few weeks ago, after the death of my mother. She had once told me about some legends she recalled from (Catholic) childhood, about Holy Week.

I wanted to do a websearch to find out where those legends originated, and when I Googled “holy week+customs”, I ended up on Catholic Answers.

I did get my questions answered here, and then noticed some threads about converting Jews to Catholicism, which of course piqued my interest as a deeply committed Jew.

And that,. my friend, is how I ended up here.
My condolences on the death of your Mother. Good luck in the forums.
 
I believe it is wrong to judge all Catholics by one’s experience. If one wants to learn about something, one goes to the source, where one can gain the true knowledge of the subject. Now if one cares to share his or her faith about a doctrine, and proves to be incorrect, It is good to share this information and learn from one another. I dont see the justice in claiming why Catholics often are a way from your experience. I cannot judge all Jews to be negative of all Catholics from your statement and experience. I believe your question should not have addressed Catholics in general.

For me your catholic experience speaks volumes of the individual not Catholics in general. The only thing that I see from your experience is that formation or catechesis was not properly recieved or.given to the catholic individual or individuals.

I know of some famous Jews who dont have a clue of their faith, not to mention dont practice it. Now can one judge you as being one of those Jews I know of?

Let’s leave the judging to our heavenly Father in heaven, and let us be tolerant of anothers faith and understanding of ones maturity on religious matters.

Peace be with you
 
I’m 48 and have been studying other religions as a hobby since my teen years. In all that time…
I’m not your average, garden variety non-Catholic who just wants to tell you how much more she knows than you… trust me on that one.
I don’t mean any disrespect in saying this… I just don’t understand… how someone can know so much and yet not convert? What is your primary reason for not converting?

(and a secondary reason or two would also be good)… thanks.
 
I didn’t know where else to post this, and I TRULY DO NOT wish to offend anyone, but I have made an observation over the last 48 years of my life that puzzles and saddens me.

As a religious Jew, I have spent my entire life studying other religions, as well as my own. I have met with many religious authorities, studied many religions, all in an effort not to be like a few Catholic girls who beat me up as a child, saying to me, “You killed Our Lord”. I never wanted to be as ignorant of the religions of others as they evidently were of not only mine, but their own.

I have met many knowledgeable Protestants, Catholics, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus and others in my life, but one thing I have observed time and again: many Catholics not only are totally ignorant of the religions of others, but also of their own. WHY is this?

To give one example, a woman I knew years ago in the pro-life movement insisted to me that the immaculate conception was the Catholic belief that when Mary conceived Jesus, she was a virgin.

I explained to her that that belief is called the virgin birth. I told her that the belief of the immaculate conception is the belief that when MARY was conceived in HER mother’s womb, she was free of original sin. I then explained that that is what the meaning is of the words on the miraculous medal seen in a vision by Catherine Laboure.

She insisted she was right and I was wrong. I finally told her to ask her priest. She called a few days later to apologize, that I was right.

HOW can so many Catholics be so ignorant of not only the faiths of others, but esp. their own?

I realize not everyone can be a religious scholar, but I thought the Catholic church had catechism classes, parochial schools, etc

My own mother was a convert to Orthodox Judaism from Catholicism, and she had attended Catholic school as a child as well. Yet she misled me for many years, telling me that Catholics do not believe Jesus is god, but SON of God. I didn’t learn what Catholics actually believed on that until I was a teenager, and began studying all religions (I went on to get a degree in comparative religion as well.)

Can anyone explain this to me?
the devil is succeeding at dismantling the 1 billion people in Christ’s Church.

what surprises me, is that this surprises you. what religion doesn’t have the lukewarm, the dissenters, the apathetic? look at the core of the faith, the beliefs and teachings, the good people (Saints), not the foul people. God bless.
 
I didn’t know where else to post this, and I TRULY DO NOT wish to offend anyone, but I have made an observation over the last 48 years of my life that puzzles and saddens me…

HOW can so many Catholics be so ignorant of not only the faiths of others, but esp. their own?
I only have my own theories on the subject. I grew up where we learned the Baltimore Catechism. I was shocked by how much less kids knew who didn’t have that background, but even in our neck of the woods, there was not a shortage of misconceptions about our faith. I’ll talk about us. This will be long, so bear with me.

Well, first of all, you’re a Jew, the People of the Book. You are not likely to run into a religious-ethnic group as devoted to the connection between scholarship and spirituality as yours is. Feel lucky on that point.

IMHO, I guess your first answer will come by looking back at Judaism. Lots of Jews not only do not know any Hebrew but do not come from families that observe one iota more than they have to in order to keep Gramma from getting on their case. In other words, Jewish observance all over the world falls somewhere between just showing up for family events all the way to keeping strictly kosher and never thinking of marrying a shiksa. It depends on who your grandma is, and how much pull she has. For better and worse, grandmas are losing pull everywhere. This is to the detriment of religious observance and formation everywhere.

Like Judaism, there can be a huge ethnic component to being Catholic, which means that there are going to be some of us in the “hatch, match, dispatch” crowd, who would only show up for those events if required. The difference between Judaism and Catholicism, of course, is that for many Jews essentially only the High Holy Days are “required”, once you become a bar mitzvah. All Catholics are required, by canon law and therefore by grandmas everywhere, to assist at Mass every Sunday. Protestants don’t have this requirement. In my experience, regular church attendance is a better indication of personal strength of adherance in Protestant churches than in Catholic ones. I think that is why. Also, weak and non-observant Catholics self-identify as Catholics all the time…again, just like Jews. They may not darken the door of a Catholic Church for 40 years, and they will say, “I’m Catholic.” Weak Protestants don’t generally do that. They may say, “I was raised Baptist” but they won’t call themselves Baptist.

Also, Catholics have pretty much ONE body of knowledge, and it is substantial. For instance, as you noted, a Catholic needs to understand the Virgin Birth and the Immaculate Conception, and the difference. Many Protestants don’t even believe the Virgin Mary has any particular quality that any of the other saints don’t have. A Catholic needs to understand the meaning of each part of the order of the Mass. Protestant services are far less dense in their ritual meaning, and in many congregations may be made up essentially on the spot by the pastor. And so on…in Catholicism, there is simply a lot more to be ignorant of.

As to being ignorant of other faiths, this is not a Vatican II thing. It wasn’t that long ago that Catholics did not feel at all encouraged to dabble around in the religious thinking of other faiths. There was a time when, if you weren’t going to seminary, you were not encouraged to think a lot about our faith. You just memorized it and lived it. I don’t mean the Church, necessarily. I mean Grandma. As far as Grandma was concerned, there was only trouble in the direction of religious inquiry and debate. You learn our faith, buddy, and never mind about theirs, and you won’t go wandering off into their heresies. OK, Grandma, trust me, I won’t bother learning theirs. Since when I grow up, everybody will assume we all know and believe exactly the same thing, I might not bother learning any more of ours than I have to without having Sister tell Mom and Dad.

Then there is the business of ignorance about the Bible. Unlike Protestant churches, Catholic churches only have missals, which conveniently give only the isolated Scripture readings that go with each Mass. If you’re going to go paging around in a Bible, that will be on your own time. Not a few Protestants, on the other hand, are sent scurrying from this passage to that during their weekly worship service, and are expected to attend age-appropriate Bible study on Sunday morning.

Also, Protestants have a handy little thing in their Bibles called a concordance…you can look up the little phrase you have in mind in an index in the back, and it will help you find the passage you want. Catholic Bibles, by and large, don’t have one of those. Even those of us who are Bible readers don’t read the Bible that way, going around looking for “proof texts”. Our “proof” is that the Magesterium teaches it, not that we can find some line in the Bible that seems to prove our point. Catholics are far more likely to use the Bible as a starting point for prayer and reflection than they are to use it as the starting point of an intellectual debate. Again, this isn’t a Vatican II thing. If anything, Catholics are more likely to attend an organized Bible study now than they ever were before Vatican II. I think that this is because there were not a few grandmas who were of the opinion that if it weren’t for Bible studies, there wouldn’t be any Protestants.

I make this all about the grandmas in a bit of a tongue-in-cheek way, but let’s face it: as the grandmas went, so went religion. Not so anymore. It wasn’t their fault, but even when they ran the Catholic families, outward observance and compliance were much more important than comprehension. It was rare that someone was going to quiz you. If so, tell them, “Oh, Go ask Grandma. She knows all that better than I do.” That will hide a rather shocking level of ignorance.

Again, this is all just my theory.
 
the devil is succeeding at dismantling the 1 billion people in Christ’s Church.

what surprises me, is that this surprises you. what religion doesn’t have the lukewarm, the dissenters, the apathetic? look at the core of the faith, the beliefs and teachings, the good people (Saints), not the foul people. God bless.
As I pointed out in my too-long post, a Catholic might not attend Mass in 40 years, yet will still say, “I’m Catholic.” A Protestant who was so far-removed from observance would say instead,
“I was raised such-and-so.”

Catholics have this in common with Jews. Think about it: have you ever heard of a “secular Baptist”?

Memorization and knowledge of the strict facts did used to be the norm, though. That has largely vanished, much to our detriment. I don’t know if this change came about because of Vatican II, though, so much as it did just because of general changes in what educated kids are expected to know. Adults can’t make change for a $20, spell without a spell-checker, find London on a globe, or recite even one poem from memory anymore, either.
 
I came into the RCC via RCIA Easter 2006. I had taught Adult Sunday School in the Southern Baptist Church for years.

As to the teaching of Adult Sunday School: I just about had to force participation of the 40-60 age group. But it seemed once I knew who I could call on, I as a teacher was more inclined to call on them so I would not embarrase another in class. But from time to time I would call on “the wall-flower” and maybe help them with the answer. Some grew out of the experience, but others were “just there”. They were polite, but they nodded off some too.

As to Catholics I have met after my conversion to Catholic: Some actually told me that I learned more in RCIA than they had every been taught. I think that alot of the reason is indifference (some may say apathy, but I think that is a bit harsh). I liken it to trying to be taught about cooking, or lacrosse, or any other type thing. Being Catholic is a very important thing, but so many people get wrapped up in other things they just don’t see the time investment as being a priority.

So I would it is not really just Catholics, it is people. People in general are interested in different things, religion to them is on the same level as golf (or lower). They have their bills, their house payment, their kid’s soccer game. Mass is just one more thing on the list of things to do. They come to church, maybe they will genuflect, maybe they know the Creed and Gloria. Some will hold your hand during the Our Father. Some will stay after they take the Eucharist, some will leave. However, to stay and do a rosary or adoration, well, that’s for the “Religious nuts”.

I remember hearing a long time ago (while I was still Baptist) that there are within the church (or any organization) Pillars and Catepillars. 1 out of 10 do most of the work (the Pillars), the other 9 have little to no involvement (the Catepillars). I think it is just “human nature” (I don’t like to use the term, but I don’t have another, I have heard Cafeteria Catholics bantered about).

So what do we do, how do we change it? Hearing the truth from the Homily, sure. Require 3 years of Faith Formation or more, maybe. Maybe change format of a say 830am adult Catechism class before 930am Mass and so on. Have more Bible Studies like Gail Buckley’s stuff, more DVDs, get people interested, have Catholic “Trivia” games, and many other things that I can’t think of.

Personally, I am my brother’s keeper and I am responsible for helping get my brother to Mass, that’s where Jesus is. Since I am interested in “God’s things” it is my responsibility to tell others so maybe they will get interested also.
 
I don’t mean any disrespect in saying this… I just don’t understand… how someone can know so much and yet not convert? What is your primary reason for not converting?

(and a secondary reason or two would also be good)… thanks.
I have a degree in comparative religions. I have studied ALL religious faiths, not only Catholicism.

How is it I do not convert? Uh, maybe because I don’t believe in Catholicism and instead believe in Torah Judaism? Why is that so hard to comprehend?

I also did not convert to Buddhism or Hinduism, even though I’ve studies those religions as well, and have found some good in those also, as I have in Christianity.

Finding some good in other religions, and understanding what they believe, does not need to equate to JOINING them.
 
Part of my issue was that while those well meaning teachers were trying to instill a knowledge of the faith in me, I couldn’t have cared less. .

Exactly. Much Catholic (and Anglican) religious ed I’ve seen forgets to start by teaching thoroughly that GOD LOVES THE PERSON & we need to *respond to that love with love *(by learning, worshipping, morality, etc). They jump in without ever laying this critical foundation. The LCMS schools, on the otherhand, do a fantastic job. From subbing Willowcreek’s Promiseland, I suspect they do, too.

Another missing piece: prayer for conversion of the students. Faith is the gift of God; conversion comes supernaturally & there’s a lack of prayer for the truth to touch hearts.

Finally, YES, catechesis has been horrid in many mainstream churches, including the RCC.
 
I have a degree in comparative religions. I have studied ALL religious faiths, not only Catholicism.

How is it I do not convert? Uh, maybe because I don’t believe in Catholicism and instead believe in Torah Judaism? Why is that so hard to comprehend?

I also did not convert to Buddhism or Hinduism, even though I’ve studies those religions as well, and have found some good in those also, as I have in Christianity.

Finding some good in other religions, and understanding what they believe, does not need to equate to JOINING them.
First if you studied Buddhism or Hinduism they really do not classify as a religion now do they?

If you follow Torah Judaism then tell me do you not find it amazing that immediately after the ressurection of Christ, Judaism was changed forever.

Is it not amazing that the Torah was not finalized till almost 300 years till after the first bible was written, and well after the birth of Christ and many of the old testament writtings and predictions of the Messiah was changed or ommitted because the Jews were losing so many of their flock.

Is it not strange that Catholism is now the largest religion in the world and the Jews are dwindling faster than a river in a drought.

Where have the 12 tribes gone? Surely after several thousand years your numbers should be great.

Since Jesus and the destruction of the temple no animal sacrafices. I think Jesus surely destroyed the Temple and rebuilt it in three days.

While you are at it ask a jewish scholar about a special candle in the Temple in Jerusleum that would not remain lit for the 30 or so years the the total destruction of the temple and the reason why the curtin in the Temple was ripped from bottom to top at the time of Jesus’s death.

Judiaism is hardly a religion today and more and more looks like a social club except for the ortrodox for it is very diffulcult even for yourself to find a Jew that follows the Laws esspecially of the sabbath.
 
I have a degree in comparative religions. I have studied ALL religious faiths, not only Catholicism.

How is it I do not convert? Uh, maybe because I don’t believe in Catholicism and instead believe in Torah Judaism? Why is that so hard to comprehend?

I also did not convert to Buddhism or Hinduism, even though I’ve studies those religions as well, and have found some good in those also, as I have in Christianity.

Finding some good in other religions, and understanding what they believe, does not need to equate to JOINING them.
Maybe this question already was asked, but… what made you choose to study comparative religions? Of course that’s if you can trace which event(s) triggered your interest… I am under the impression that you can. Like, was it out of curiousity about your mom’s former religion? Or was it something else?.. or maybe both? (If you already answered that, you can tell me in which post, under which topic)… Shalom!
 
no hit to you personally, but having a degree in religious studies means absolutely nothing insofar as truly knowing the correct background and beliefs of a particular religion. it’s good reference and explores much, but in my opinion, it hardly constitutes enough to convert someone who is grounded in their own faith.

in other words, it can just be “studying”, just as a protestant would “study” Christianity and still be completely ignorant of Catholicism.

don’t get me wrong, i myself am thinking of changing my major to religious studies, but i hope i never claim to “know” a religion because i studied it.
First if you studied Buddhism or Hinduism they really do not classify as a religion now do they?

Judiaism is hardly a religion today and more and more looks like a social club except for the ortrodox for it is very diffulcult even for yourself to find a Jew that follows the Laws esspecially of the sabbath.
in my world religions class we learned that Buddhism is based on Hinduism but i don’t recall that they were not classified as religions?

we also learned, or rather the professor emphasized, that Judaism is more about a culture rather than a religion…
 
I didn’t know where else to post this, and I TRULY DO NOT wish to offend anyone, but I have made an observation over the last 48 years of my life that puzzles and saddens me.

As a religious Jew, I have spent my entire life studying other religions, as well as my own. I have met with many religious authorities, studied many religions, all in an effort not to be like a few Catholic girls who beat me up as a child, saying to me, “You killed Our Lord”. I never wanted to be as ignorant of the religions of others as they evidently were of not only mine, but their own.

I have met many knowledgeable Protestants, Catholics, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus and others in my life, but one thing I have observed time and again: many Catholics not only are totally ignorant of the religions of others, but also of their own. WHY is this?

To give one example, a woman I knew years ago in the pro-life movement insisted to me that the immaculate conception was the Catholic belief that when Mary conceived Jesus, she was a virgin.

I explained to her that that belief is called the virgin birth. I told her that the belief of the immaculate conception is the belief that when MARY was conceived in HER mother’s womb, she was free of original sin. I then explained that that is what the meaning is of the words on the miraculous medal seen in a vision by Catherine Laboure.

She insisted she was right and I was wrong. I finally told her to ask her priest. She called a few days later to apologize, that I was right.

HOW can so many Catholics be so ignorant of not only the faiths of others, but esp. their own?

I realize not everyone can be a religious scholar, but I thought the Catholic church had catechism classes, parochial schools, etc

My own mother was a convert to Orthodox Judaism from Catholicism, and she had attended Catholic school as a child as well. Yet she misled me for many years, telling me that Catholics do not believe Jesus is god, but SON of God. I didn’t learn what Catholics actually believed on that until I was a teenager, and began studying all religions (I went on to get a degree in comparative religion as well.)

Can anyone explain this to me?
First of all, I don’t think one can define the vast problem of indifference towards religion as being attributed to only or even primarily to Catholics that don’t know their faith. Catholics make up a large percentage of the population, so maybe you just happen to know more Catholics that fall within this issue.

Personally, my good friend, I think the general problem (and I hate to paint with such a broad brush) with indifference towards religion in many people in this country stems from their faith not being an important and integral part of their everyday lives or within their very “being”.

God should be the hub of our life’s wheel and everything in life should extend outward like spokes from that hub. I think many make God and religion one of the spokes and make themselves the hub.

Unfortunately, this country promotes countless non-virtues like self-esteem (we are responsible to make ourselves happy- evident in the abundance of self help books, etc), makability (what we can make for ourselves and of ourselves) and since there is no one particular set of unifying and codifying principals (tyranny of relativism) such as right judgment; faith and religion becomes less important than living within the earthly world.

I have taught religious education to 7th and 8th graders for the last 9 years. The vast majority of students I’ve taught rarely ever attend Mass with their families. On the first day of class each year, I always give a little impromptu verbal quiz: who was Abraham?, what was Jesus’ mother’s name?, who was Moses? What is the Eucharist?, etc… Besides not being able to answer these most simple of questions, most of the kids don’t even know their basic prayers.

I have friends that can rattle off countless baseball stats or lines from television shows or movies but don’t know the Apostle’s Creed or what a Novena is.

For too many, religion just isn’t important. I see people spend hours shopping for a new bowling ball or whatever, but never bother opening a Bible and they are usually the first to justify themselves with “I don’t need to go to Church to have a relationship with God” (their justification for self indulgence over religion and spiritual development)

In a nutshell, faith practice needs to be seeded and nurtured in the family and it needs to be important there. In far too many families, it just isn’t. Out of sight, out of mind.

In witnessing all of this, I trust my hope and faith in God and His glorious plans for His creation… I leave myself available for His use to help with evangelization in a world that generally despises it. We can be happy workers in His vineyard, but we don’t control when the grapes ripen.
 
no hit to you personally, but having a degree in religious studies means absolutely nothing insofar as truly knowing the correct background and beliefs of a particular religion. it’s good reference and explores much, but in my opinion, it hardly constitutes enough to convert someone who is grounded in their own faith.

in other words, it can just be “studying”, just as a protestant would “study” Christianity and still be completely ignorant of Catholicism.

don’t get me wrong, i myself am thinking of changing my major to religious studies, but i hope i never claim to “know” a religion because i studied it.

in my world religions class we learned that Buddhism is based on Hinduism but i don’t recall that they were not classified as religions?

we also learned, or rather the professor emphasized, that Judaism is more about a culture rather than a religion…
Thankyou for that Johnnydigit you cant know a religion by studying it you must live it. And you must believe in it. And the more you live it the more you see that it is all about Faith, Faith in God. Johnnydigit I LIKE THE WAY YOUR THINKING!
 
Hope I am not out of place here, but I’d like to point out to the several people who have commented on “why isn’t HashemEchad Catholic”.

Thread is not about Hashem’s choice of faith, but rather about the state of catachesis today. I understand the desire to bring all to the church, but let’s not derail the thread.

As to the Catachesis issue, I have begun reading and listening to conversion stories and there is a common thread in them about Catholics being either unwilling or unable to defend their faith against evangelization by fundemental Christians. It makes me ashamed that I know so little about my own faith and fires me up to learn more.
I’d like to some day work to “revangelize” lost catholics. God Willing

Peace
James
 
Judiaism is hardly a religion today and more and more looks like a social club except for the ortrodox for it is very diffulcult even for yourself to find a Jew that follows the Laws esspecially of the sabbath.
Even if that were the case, which it is not, so what? Why would that be a reason to convert to another religion altogether?
 
Maybe this question already was asked, but… what made you choose to study comparative religions? Of course that’s if you can trace which event(s) triggered your interest… I am under the impression that you can. Like, was it out of curiousity about your mom’s former religion? Or was it something else?.. or maybe both? (If you already answered that, you can tell me in which post, under which topic)… Shalom!
I’ll tell you exactly what inspired me to study other religions.

When I was 10 years old, I was accosted and beaten up by three Catholic school girls who beat me because they said, “You killed Our Lord”.

When I managed to get home (all bloodied), my father and mother (a former Catholic, now a Jew) told me that those girls did that because they did not understand their own religion or mine.

I decided from that point on that I would never be as ignorant of other religious faiths as those girls were of mine.
 
Hope I am not out of place here, but I’d like to point out to the several people who have commented on “why isn’t HashemEchad Catholic”.

Thread is not about Hashem’s choice of faith, but rather about the state of catachesis today. I understand the desire to bring all to the church, but let’s not derail the thread.

As to the Catachesis issue, I have begun reading and listening to conversion stories and there is a common thread in them about Catholics being either unwilling or unable to defend their faith against evangelization by fundemental Christians. It makes me ashamed that I know so little about my own faith and fires me up to learn more.
I’d like to some day work to “revangelize” lost catholics. God Willing

Peace
James
It seems that no matter what thread I post in, the subject of my own religious faith (and wondering why I have not become a Catholic) comes up–even when the thread has no relation to that.

So I suppose I will say something now, and hopefully it won’t need repeating.

My mother’s ancestors were Jews in Spain who were forced to convert to Catholicism under threat of death. Most converted, but continued to practice Judaism in secret.

I would venture to say that I would go one step further than they did. I would not convert to Catholicism (or ANY other nonJewish religion), even if someone were threatening my life.

Being Jewish, and worshipping Hashem, the ONLY true God, means more to me than even my own life.

Have I made myself very clear?

One other thing I’d like to add: I have tried VERY hard not to offend any Catholics or other Christians here with what I say. Yet there are those here who think nothing of calling my religion “false”, “a social club”, “abolished when Jesus came” and other such gutter talk. I have not done that to Catholicism, though with what I know of the history of the Catholic church, I would certainly have much ammunition to do that.

Your church teaches you to respect those of other faiths, and to try to understand them. I guess that has not trickled down to the laity just yet.
 
I’ll tell you exactly what inspired me to study other religions.

When I was 10 years old, I was accosted and beaten up by three Catholic school girls who beat me because they said, “You killed Our Lord”.

When I managed to get home (all bloodied), my father and mother (a former Catholic, now a Jew) told me that those girls did that because they did not understand their own religion or mine.

I decided from that point on that I would never be as ignorant of other religious faiths as those girls were of mine.
When I was 10 years old I was beaten by 4 guys because I was a Notre Dame fan. i guess i hould have majored in sports.
 
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