Why are Muslims saved according to Roman Catholicism?

[King_of_kings]

You keep doing the same thing, you post one passage and take it out of context.

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

 

[underdog]

You are much too big for your britches. You have very little humility.

Your conclusions are wrong. What I posted was an accurate summary of the Catechism. You are very ignorant of the teachings of the Church if you do not understand that. If what I said “veered from scripture” or the teachings of the Church Mother Teresa would not be in the process of being canonized. That is just one example.

I said nothing whatsoever about “God grading on a curve”. What is the matter with you? Can’t you read? That is your brainwashing. You misconstrue things and cannot understand what others are saying because you expect to hear things that are not being said.

The passage you are quoting Scripture has nothing whatsoever to do with how a person responds to the gospel.

The issue that you cannot understand (because you are here with an agenda, and have blinded yourself from understanding) is how is the gospel presented to people? Must it always be mental understanding?

That is the whole of the point that you cannot figure out.

Are you clergy or laity in the Catholic Church. If you are laity, you are just one of many who have posted with various understandings and views. Catholics as a whole are just as confused on the issues of Muslims and Jews being saved apart from faith in Christ according to the Magesterium. I’m glad I’m just a Christian. What must I do to be saved? The Apostle answered “believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved”. That’s not too difficult to understand, is it? And again, I’m not Catholic.

https://www.mezcotoyz.com/store/inventory/Underdog/24010.jpg

How can Muslims be saved apart from faith in Jesus Christ?

 

[Angels_Unaware]

What I have posted in sound Catholic theology. You have a very arrogant spirit in you. It is ironic that underdog is your handle.

Just in case you are legitimately confused, and not just another know-it-all, pride-filled, agenda-driven person using Christianity as a tool to assauge your ego, I will explain this to you once more, since you have not grasped it.

If you are so blessed to have a mind and a right understanding of doctrine, then do yourself a favor and figure it out without playing mind games.

First, the passage you quoted in Romans speaks to the natural state of man in the fallen world. That natural state is to be separated from God, and yet contain the potential to apprehend God. That’s all it says. It never says you must live in Tennessee and go to the First Baptist Church and bow your head and recite this prayer, “Jesus, I am a sinner, save me,” and then study your Bible every week. There is nothing wrong with doing so if you live in Tennessee. But by the time you are older than about 15 years of age you might figure out that the world is larger than Tennessee today and that the whole history of the world is more complicated than you can imagine. Reality is bigger than you and your simple life.

Second, the only way to God, who is separated from us in the flesh we inhabit, is through the atonement of Christ. (We understand this intellectually). But, how does such intellectual understanding save us? How? How are we born again? What is going on there?

The answer is greater than intellectual understanding. The answer is that the gospel is communicated not to the mind, but to the soul. The mind certainly may be a vehicle to the soul for some people. Well-fed, healthy 15-year olds living in Tennesse, for example, with unlimited Internet access and dozens of Bibles and who are of above-average intelligence may be excellent candidates for accessing the gospel through the intellect.

For dying men in the gutters in India, who had been socialized and culturally indoctrinated in Hinduism, though, seeing sacrifical love in action may instead by the gospel message that their soul responds to.

Are you so arrogant that you cannot grasp that these dying people did not have to recite the salvation prayer to respond to the gospel?

It is quite amazing to me that you cannot affirm that when we see the sick and dying, and we see the outcasts of society, and those who are ridiculted and shamed, we see the cross as the first century Jews and Romans saw the cross. You should affirm it. You do not understand Christianity if you cannot affirm it.

 

[inJESUS]

What would be the basis for God to show mercy on Muslim believers?

it is not our right to say Muslims are in hell, we can however entrust them to God’s mercy, if He wills it, for whatever reason He only knows. Not all muslims are alike, not all people have the same conditions or background or mental abilities or options to choose or exposure to truth. We don’t know what was the life or heart or mind of Muslims who died or who will die and since we cannot judge them to hell, we can only entrust them to God’s mercy if He wishes. Whether He will or not is not our business but we cannot judge if you want to use scriptures. And when we say this, it is NOT because Jesus’ teachings and life and death mean nothing, but because we cannot judge.

 

[saieditor]

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As a Christian for almost 30 years,.

http://www.fantasyecards.com/ecards/pix/Cartoon/underdog.jpg

You’re not. You’re a devotee of this dog thing.

I didn’t realize modern Roman Catholicism is so Pelagius in thinking. I thought Scripture bears testimony that all are without excuse (Romans 1 and 2), and all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. It seems you are saying that God grades on a curve, and God is obligated to show equal opportunity salvation to all to earn it. Are you saying the light of Christ is found in Mohammad, Buddha, Angel Moroni, crystals, witchcraft, trees, river which men can be saved?

https://www.mezcotoyz.com/store/inventory/Underdog/24010.jpg

Get the imagery? Its this dog thing against all the others, as typified by this Frankenstein person in the cartoon.

Underdog is simply that, an underdog, here to tell all the Catholics (and everyone else) that *they *are wrong and *he is right. *

 

[Contarini]

This is a very difficult concept to understand for any Christian.

The idea that God damns people without giving them a chance to be saved is a difficult concept to understand for any human being of minimal decency.

Can anyone try to explain this official Roman Catholic teaching? This statement makes the incarnation, life and death of Christ, and the ressurection to be unecessary.

Nothing of the sort. Everyone who is saved is saved through Christ, even if they have not had the chance to hear about Him in this life (or have heard about Him under circumstances that made it excusable for them to reject the message). You are confusing salvation with human reception of salvation. Not surprising, given that this is one of the basic errors of Protestantism (insofar as we can say that anything is basic to Protestantism).

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

A I’m glad I’m just a Christian.

Nobody is “just a Christian.” You are deceiving yourself. Your ideas about salvation come to you from specific historical sources–one of the principal ones is probably Calvin. Calvin could be careless about the fate of those who have had no chance to believe because Calvin assumed that they were predestined to damnation. If you don’t believe this, then you need to ask whether your view of God is any less callous than that of Calvin. Arminians who believe that the unevangelized are damned have a God who is just as cruel as Calvin’s God, only a lot less powerful. You lose both ways.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

That’s a hyper-Calvinist attack. I am with you to refute hyper-calvinism as being false.

And thus you condemn yourself. You use a Calvinist framework but don’t have the guts to stand by it whole hog.

Edwin

 

[underdog]

As an Episcopalian Christian, it sure seems your view is not consistent with your denomination’s official doctrinal positions in regards to the necessity of hearing the gospel. It seems to me that both you and the official Roman Catholic teaching is that Muslims, Jews, and other non-Christians can be saved and are saved seperate and apart from hearing and believing the good news. Now that’s a new one for me, but universalism seems to be the theme for the more liberal bodies within Christendom. I do have better understanding why the Catholics on this site have difficulties of sharing the necessity of receiving and believing the biblical Jesus Christ with the Muslims, because some have the light of Christ and the Spirit of Christ in them, eventhough they do not believe in the biblical Jesus Christ. I’m not sure how Muslims are saved without the ressurected Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 15 -The Resurrection of Christ

Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me. For I am the least of the apostles, unworthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me. Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.

The Resurrection of the Dead

Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised.** For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. **Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied.

 

[Contarini]

You just turned the greatest good news of God throughout the history of the world to accountable bad news. Why would you preach Christ to someone if they become accountable for rejecting Him for eternal condemnation.

You are making two mistakes:

1. You seem to think that the good news is that “you are now hearing that Jesus died and rose again.” In fact the good news is that Jesus died and rose again. Hearing the good news brings accountability.
2. You assume that all who do not hear the Gospel are saved, when no one said anything of the sort. It is quite possible to reject the light God has sent you and be damned even though you have never heard the full truth of the Gospel. The Gospel is good news because it brings the fullness of what some among the unevangelized may have already begun to believe through the grace of God.

Note: I myself would not say that a person is “saved” until they hear the Gospel. I would say that such a person may be on the way to salvation through God’s prevenient grace. But then, arguably we are not “saved” until we reach final union with God (contrary to the common usage of evangelical Protestants). It depends on what we mean by “saved.” What I think we must affirm as Christians (and I agree that Vatican II’s Lumen Gentium, influenced by Karl Rahner, doesn’t affirm this clearly enough, though Dominus Iesus in 2001 does a better job) is that a person is not regenerated and brought into the Church until they put their faith in Christ and are baptized. And these are important parts of what the Scriptures refer to as “salvation.” The problem is that we have come to define salvation primarily as “going to heaven” or even as “escaping hell.” And I stand firmly with Vatican II in affirming a hope that through the mercy of God people who do not hear the Gospel in this life can still escape hell.

Edwin

 

[underdog]

You are making two mistakes:

1. You seem to think that the good news is that “you are now hearing that Jesus died and rose again.” In fact the good news is that Jesus died and rose again. Hearing the good news brings accountability.
2. You assume that all who do not hear the Gospel are saved, when no one said anything of the sort. It is quite possible to reject the light God has sent you and be damned even though you have never heard the full truth of the Gospel. The Gospel is good news because it brings the fullness of what some among the unevangelized may have already begun to believe through the grace of God.

Note: I myself would not say that a person is “saved” until they hear the Gospel. I would say that such a person may be on the way to salvation through God’s prevenient grace. But then, arguably we are not “saved” until we reach final union with God (contrary to the common usage of evangelical Protestants). It depends on what we mean by “saved.” What I think we must affirm as Christians (and I agree that Vatican II’s Lumen Gentium, influenced by Karl Rahner, doesn’t affirm this clearly enough, though Dominus Iesus in 2001 does a better job) is that a person is not regenerated and brought into the Church until they put their faith in Christ and are baptized. And these are important parts of what the Scriptures refer to as “salvation.” The problem is that we have come to define salvation primarily as “going to heaven” or even as “escaping hell.” And I stand firmly with Vatican II in affirming a hope that through the mercy of God people who do not hear the Gospel in this life can still escape hell.

Edwin

The Message of Salvation to All - Romans 10

5 For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. 6 But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 or “‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11 For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? [3] And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

 

[Contarini]

As an Episcopalian Christian, it sure seems your view is not consistent of your denomination’s official doctrinal positions in regards to the necessity of hearing the gospel.

You are thinking of the Articles. Actually the Articles are not binding on Episcopalians–I was never asked to affirm them, and in fact I affirm them far more than most Episcopalians do. Most Episcopalians are to my left on this (and most other) issues.

It seems to me that both you and the official Roman Catholic teaching is that Muslims, Jews, and other non-Christians can be saved and are saved seperate and apart from hearing and believing the good news.

I’ve clarified this a bit in my last post. It depends on what you mean by “saved.” I myself (partly because of Article 18, but more importantly because of Romans 10:14 and other Scriptural passages on which Article 18 is based) would not say that a person who has not heard the Gospel is already saved. Not even in the provisional sense in which a regenerate Christian still in this life is saved. But I do affirm the hope that a person who never consciously accepts the Gospel of Christ in this life can reach final salvation. I would speculate that this happens at the moment of death–not in the sense of a “second chance” but rather a realization that Christ is the source of everything true and good in which the person had previously believed.

Now that’s a new one for me,

Haven’t you ever read C. S. Lewis?

but universalism seems to be the theme for the more liberal bodies within Christendom.

This is not universalism, except in the sense of a universal offer of salvation. It is quite possible for people to reject the Gospel (whether in its fullness or in some imperfect and fragmentary form) and be damned. But we don’t think God wants anyone to be damned. Do you?

Edwin

 

[inJESUS]

There are just 4 minutes between your reply and Contarini’s. Have you actually read what he wrote?

 

[Contarini]

The Message of Salvation to All - Romans 10

5 For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. 6 But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 or “‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11 For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? [3] And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

And that’s precisely the point of my last paragraph in the post to which you responded.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

There are just 4 minutes between your reply and Contarini’s. Have you actually read what he wrote?

We’ve both been replying to each other very fast and our posts have been crossing each other’s.

Edwin

 

[underdog]

And that’s precisely the point of my last paragraph in the post to which you responded.

Edwin

I think you wrote that you stand with Vatican II. I stand with the Apostle Paul and the Holy Scriptures as authorative over Vatican II. Edwin, you should convert to the Catholic Church.

The Righteous Shall Live by Faith

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, [5] as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.” [6]

God’s Wrath on Unrighteousness
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.

24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. 29 They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Though they know God’s decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.

 

[inJESUS]

We’ve both been replying to each other very fast and our posts have been crossing each other’s.

Edwin

i meant his post number 71, in reply to your post number 70.

 

[Contarini]

I think you wrote that you stand with Vatican II. I stand with the Apostle Paul and the Holy Scriptures as authorative over Vatican II.

You appear uninterested in replying to my substantive arguments. I’d be interested in seeing your replies, but I recognize that you have many things to do. Myself, I need to grade research papers (on world religions, ironically).

However, as for “standing with Vatican II,” I stand with C. S. Lewis and many other non-Catholic writers on this as well.

In Christ,

Edwin

 

[Angels_Unaware]

I’ve noticed that most Fundamentalists resort to quoting large passages of Scripture (as if others are unfamiliar with Scripture) as a substitute for meaningful discourse.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

This is a very difficult concept to understand for any Christian. Can anyone try to explain this official Roman Catholic teaching? This statement makes the incarnation, life and death of Christ, and the ressurection to be unecessary.

The Church doesn’t necessarily say that Muslims are saved, just that they are part of the plan of salvation.

It is not for us to say that they will not have an opporunity for salvation.

Here’s a scripture passage that opens many pathways and that should make us slow to judge:

1 Peter 3

18For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.