The non-Catholic church that I attend has had several sermons on Mary, focusing on her obedience to God; however, we don’t pray to her or ask for her intercession, since that seems to go way beyond what scripture reveals.
Where do you attend church?
IN A CERTAIN SENSE, I worship Her (something FEW Catholics will state that they do). .
If those certain Catholics do worship her, such is inconsistant with Catholic Theology of Mary.
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rskempf (or any Catholic) -
Please quote for me the statement in The Lutheran Confessions (or ANY official position of ANY Lutheran denomination at ANY point in time) that “rejected the reverence of Mary.”
Where is your substantiation for this???.
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So, I - a Lutheran, as well as all Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, Syrian Orthodox - we are all Catholics? Are all Lutherans actually formally registered in congregations legally affiliated with The Catholic Church or just me? Is Jon? Is he also a Catholic and thus this thread isn’t about him, either? What about my Anglican friend who prays the Rosary every morning, is she also officially registered in The Catholic Church and not just her Anglican Church?
Where is your substantiation that non-Catholics are indifferent toward Mary? And YES, that DOES include the 400,000,000 Orthodox, the 70,000,000 Lutherans, the 70,000,000 Anglicans. YOU don’t regard us all as Catholic, and we certainly don’t. And yet your stated position is we are “indifferent” toward Mary. Where is your substantiation for this? I gave MY position on Mary (AS A NON-CATHOLIC), now reveal how that position is “indifferent” toward Her.
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If I may step out on a limb (feel free to saw it off), I think you’re misinterpreting what the OP meant by “indifference”. Perhaps a better term would have been “relative indifference”?
Methinks you’re personalizing this, AJ; just because you and perhaps Jon are in that, as I put it, “middle ground”, that doesn’t mean that a good number of non-Catholics are. I guess we can only go from our own personal experiences.
I was LCMS for nearly 30 years, and not once in my visits to various Lutheran Churches in the midwest ever hear in a sermon, liturgy or discussion nor read in any “Lutheran” literature anything even remotely resembling the view on Mary as anything as a passing character in the story of Jesus. Not once.
So my experience, at least with Lutherans, could very well be described as “indifference”, although I choose not to use the term or view Lutheran theology in that manner.
I think also that, as I mentioned above, “relative indifference” is a more accurate term. Lutherans (at least officially in the LCMS) do not hold Mary in the same way that Martin Luther did. From the LCMS website in their “belief and practice” section:
*Q. I’ve heard that Martin Luther believed in Mary’s immaculate conception, in her perpetual virginity and in praying to her. Is this how Lutherans still view Mary today?
A. Like Luther himself, Lutherans hold Mary in high esteem for the chosen role she played in God’s plan of salvation. Lutherans have never objected to denoting Mary as the “Mother of God” (theotokos, “God-bearer”), since she was the mother of Jesus and Jesus was and is indeed God. Since the Son of God was and is sinless, it is evident that some miraculous “exception” was made in the conception of Jesus through Mary that prevented original sin from tainting the Christ-child. This accounts for Luther’s comments about Mary being “entirely without sin” (as far as the conception was concerned). Lutherans today are not bound to Luther’s personal views regarding how this was accomplished; in any event, it is clear from Luther’s other and later writings on Mary that he did not hold to the view that Mary was personally devoid of all sin (which would mean that she would have had no need of forgiveness or salvation). Luther also held to the semper virgo (the perpetual virginity) of Mary. This, again, is a personal view to which Lutherans today are not bound. Scripture is not clear on this matter, and Lutherans do not regard it as a theological issue.
In his early years Luther was still greatly influenced by his rigorous Roman Catholic and monastic training. In his later writings he clearly rejects invocation to Mary and/or the saints as having no Scriptural mandate or promise. None of this undermines the opening sentence of this e-mail, which should be underscored as the final word on this issue.*
Oh, but there is a middle ground, and those non-Catholics who think there is not are wrong. Many Anglicans and some Lutherans hold a view that embraces many of the “Catholic” marian beliefs, without employing invocation. I’m one of them.
Well, I was speaking more of an “official doctrinal or dogmatic ground” than of a person al one. Like I said, I’ve never seen it in practice in any of my “Lutheran experience”.
Lutherans, of course, recognize her free will, which makes her obedience to God’s will part of the remarkable example she sets for us as Christians.
And that’s what helps make Lutherans oh-so-close.
Jon
