Why are people mormon considering it is obvioulsy fabricated?

[MelanieAnne]

With all due respect, no LDS I’ve ever spoken to has ever given me more than a subjective reason for believing in the LDS faith. Every argument my family and friends ever gave me while I was struggling for answers as an 18 year old was subjective. Some subjective is okay, that’s why we have faith. But there should be some foundation of objective truth. As far as I can see, all objective truth in the LDS comes from the Church Christ actually founded or Judaism, where his Church originated. The ten commandments, the Bible, the family friendly lifestyle, were already present when Joseph Smith made his “revelations” public. I see no evidence, not a shred, for LDS truth claims.

And, as I am Catholic, I feel the need, indeed, the duty, to proclaim the truth, as many times as is necessary. God is truth, his truth can be found in the Catholic church.

In Christ,
Michael

There is also scholarly evidence to reject the Book of Mormon. This evidence has been presented on this forum many times, but it is routinely rejected by many, perhaps most, Mormons (I don’t keep statistics as to whether any Mormon has ever accepted it.) And some Mormons are on record that they would still believe even if the Book of Mormon was unequivocally shown to be a fraud. So this is not a matter of rational evidence for at least some Mormons.

One example of scholarly studies that has a bearing on the Book of Mormon ~ the Book of Mormon story includes a narrative claiming that persons from the Middle East migrated to the Americas several hundred years before the birth of Jesus. Scientific studies of DNA of native Americans (North, Central and South) in modern times have shown that there is absolutely no evidence of any DNA from the Middle East among the descendants of persons living at the time of this supposed migration. There are numerous other examples showing that the Book of Mormon is a work of fiction and persons interested in the details can simply research the subject right here on the forum.

The inescapable conclusion is that there is no rational basis for considering the Book of Mormon to be anything but a work of fiction. The assertion that Mormons are nice people or have good family values does not alter the facts. The Mormon faith is founded on a work of fiction, and this fact casts doubt on everything subsequently allegedly “revealed” to Joseph Smith and his successor “prophets”. Contrary to what some Mormons have asserted, there is a vast amount of well documented research that shows that the Book of Mormon story has no basis in reality.

 

[diggerdomer]

There are more verses but this is enough to know for certain that God does not forbid anything in terms of eating or drinking, even blood if that suits you.

I don’t think God’s ok with cannibalism.

And as Catholics we too have religious dietary restrictions…is God against those?

 

[mjf001]

There is also scholarly evidence to reject the Book of Mormon. This evidence has been presented on this forum many times, but it is routinely rejected by many, perhaps most, Mormons (I don’t keep statistics as to whether any Mormon has ever accepted it.) And some Mormons are on record that they would still believe even if the Book of Mormon was unequivocally shown to be a fraud. So this is not a matter of rational evidence for at least some Mormons.

One example of scholarly studies that has a bearing on the Book of Mormon ~ the Book of Mormon story includes a narrative claiming that persons from the Middle East migrated to the Americas several hundred years before the birth of Jesus. Scientific studies of DNA of native Americans (North, Central and South) in modern times have shown that there is absolutely no evidence of any DNA from the Middle East among the descendants of persons living at the time of this supposed migration. There are numerous other examples showing that the Book of Mormon is a work of fiction and persons interested in the details can simply research the subject right here on the forum.

The inescapable conclusion is that there is no rational basis for considering the Book of Mormon to be anything but a work of fiction. The assertion that Mormons are nice people or have good family values does not alter the facts. The Mormon faith is founded on a work of fiction, and this fact casts doubt on everything subsequently allegedly “revealed” to Joseph Smith and his successor “prophets”. Contrary to what some Mormons have asserted, there is a vast amount of well documented research that shows that the Book of Mormon story has no basis in reality.

I couldn’t agree with you more, well said.

 

[zaffiroborant]

I don’t think God’s ok with cannibalism.

And as Catholics we too have religious dietary restrictions…is God against those?

But we aren’t forbidden from eating certain foods, we just abstain at times.

 

[diggerdomer]

But we aren’t forbidden from eating certain foods, we just abstain at times.

So it’s ok with God if we eat meat on Fridays in Lent, right?

 

[zaffiroborant]

So it’s ok with God if we eat meat on Fridays in Lent, right?

Ok so never being allowed to eat meat ever your entire life is the same as not being allowed to eat meat on Fridays during lent right?

 

[Religio71]

seems like someone else is all about niceness is salvation…

 

[ParkerD]

With all due respect, no LDS I’ve ever spoken to has ever given me more than a subjective reason for believing in the LDS faith. Every argument my family and friends ever gave me while I was struggling for answers as an 18 year old was subjective. Some subjective is okay, that’s why we have faith. But there should be some foundation of objective truth. As far as I can see, all objective truth in the LDS comes from the Church Christ actually founded or Judaism, where his Church originated. The ten commandments, the Bible, the family friendly lifestyle, were already present when Joseph Smith made his “revelations” public. I see no evidence, not a shred, for LDS truth claims.

And, as I am Catholic, I feel the need, indeed, the duty, to proclaim the truth, as many times as is necessary. God is truth, his truth can be found in the Catholic church.

In Christ,
Michael

Michael,
If that’s what works for you, that’s great. God knows your heart, and what you needed when you were born that would satisfy your religious longings. No doubt that with your longings satisfied, you are a better person than had you not found satisfaction within your beliefs. Your belief in Christ will carry you far and lead you along.

 

[ParkerD]

There is also scholarly evidence to reject the Book of Mormon. This evidence has been presented on this forum many times, but it is routinely rejected by many, perhaps most, Mormons (I don’t keep statistics as to whether any Mormon has ever accepted it.) And some Mormons are on record that they would still believe even if the Book of Mormon was unequivocally shown to be a fraud. So this is not a matter of rational evidence for at least some Mormons.

One example of scholarly studies that has a bearing on the Book of Mormon ~ the Book of Mormon story includes a narrative claiming that persons from the Middle East migrated to the Americas several hundred years before the birth of Jesus. Scientific studies of DNA of native Americans (North, Central and South) in modern times have shown that there is absolutely no evidence of any DNA from the Middle East among the descendants of persons living at the time of this supposed migration. There are numerous other examples showing that the Book of Mormon is a work of fiction and persons interested in the details can simply research the subject right here on the forum.

The inescapable conclusion is that there is no rational basis for considering the Book of Mormon to be anything but a work of fiction. The assertion that Mormons are nice people or have good family values does not alter the facts. The Mormon faith is founded on a work of fiction, and this fact casts doubt on everything subsequently allegedly “revealed” to Joseph Smith and his successor “prophets”. Contrary to what some Mormons have asserted, there is a vast amount of well documented research that shows that the Book of Mormon story has no basis in reality.

MelanieAnne,
Good example of what I had said earlier. The real story is that Lehi was descended from Manasseh, whose wife wasn’t an Israelite and which tribe was scattered and lost. Of course there is no DNA in the Middle East that would match the DNA of the descendants of Manasseh wherever they are in the world. Shoddy scholarship ignores the real story, and jumps to conclusions with their AHA! when they haven’t even understood the basic story line of the Book of Mormon or the Bible about the scattering of Israel. How can they be serious that they think they have done a scholarly job? It is nonsense. Just because it is believed by many people does not make it serious scholarship.

 

[ParkerD]

I’m sure I remember Mormons saying that their teachings do not conflict with the bible. Mormons cannot drink tea, coffee or alcohol but the bible has this to say:

*“The Spirit distinctly says that in later times some will turn away from the faith……and require abstinence from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by believers who know the truth. Everything God created is good, nothing is to be rejected. 1 Tim 4:3-4

A man of sound faith knows he can eat anything… Romans 14:2

The kingdom of God is not a matter of eating or drinking…Romans 14:17*

There are more verses but this is enough to know for certain that God does not forbid anything in terms of eating or drinking, even blood if that suits you.

The bible also warns us of someone preaching a different gospel.

Rick,
Reading this made me laugh. Thanks. What a translation you have here! Different translation = different gospel. Woops

 

[zaffiroborant]

Rick,
Reading this made me laugh. Thanks. What a translation you have here! Different translation = different gospel. Woops

Like the JST:shrug:

 

[why_me]

I guess the fact that these “witnesses” didn’t actually SEE the so-called “golden plates” isn’t troublesome for some people.

Not true but that will not change your storyline. Here is John Whitmer, one of the eight witnesses. He left the lds church but never denied his testimony:

There are two notable times that John Whitmer defended his testimony of seeing the plates, after leaving the church. The first was on April 5, 1835, when he was accompanying 8 of a group of 50 men who had sworn to not eat or drink until they had murdered “Joe” Smith. In other words, he was with a bunch of guys slightly hostile to the church. The 8 of them approached Theodore Turley, an elder in the church. They handed Elder Turley a revelation of Joseph Smith’s that they were convinced would never happen. They taunted him claiming this was proof that Joseph was a false prophet and demanded that he denounce the church once the revelation had passed without fulfillment. Turley scoffed at them defending the revelation then turned to John Whitmer and said,

“There are many things published that they say are true, and again turn around and say they are false?" Whitmer, asked, “Do you hint at me?” Elder Turley said, “If the cap fits you, wear it; all I know is that you have published to the world that an angel did present those plates to Joseph Smith.” John replied: “I now say, I handled those plates; there were fine engravings on both sides. I handled them.” Then he described in the presence of these bitter enemies how the plates were fastened and he said, “They were shown to me by a supernatural power.”

That was a pretty gutsy response considering he was associating with people who were out for violence against Joseph Smith and the Mormons. Incidentally, the revelation did happen when and where it was said to have. But that’s a subject for a whole other webpage.

The 2nd account came from what was probably John Whitmer’s final interview before his death. It’s funny how all these witnesses who leave the church keep reaffirming their testimonies on their deathbed. What does that tell you? Anyway, this Q&A was published a few weeks after John’s death.

Q - I am aware that your name is affixed to the testimony in the Book of Mormon that you saw the plates?
A - It is so, and that testimony is true.
Q - Did you handle the plates with your hands?
A - I did so!
Q - Then they were a material substance?
A - Yes, as material as anything can be.
Q - Were they heavy to lift?
A - Yes, and as you know gold is a heavy metal: they were very heavy.
Q - How big were the leaves?
A - So far as I recollect, 8 by 6 or seven inches.
Q - Were the leaves thick?
A - Yes, just so thick, that characters could be engraven on both sides.
Q - How were the leaves joined together?
A - In three rings, each one in the shape of a D with the straight line towards the center.
Q - In what place did you see the plates?
A - In Joseph Smith’s house; he had them there.
Q - Did you see them covered with a cloth?
A - No. He handed them uncovered into our hands, and we turned the leaves sufficient to satisfy us.

moroni10.com/witnesses/John_Whitmer.html

Any comments? Now of course this would meant that not only did Joseph Smith write the book of mormon but he spent weeks making metal plates writing characters on the pages. I don’t think that he was a known metal smith.

 

[why_me]

The Church does not, and neither has it ever, thought that Luther was a ‘sham’, as this would imply that Luther was willfully deceiving others against his conscience and against what his intellect perceived as fact. Do you not understand that a sham is the work of deceit, and not of the genuine expression of the heart of a man? A sham is different from theological and ecclesiastical error, which is how Protestantism has been seen by the Church.

If you go back to the beginnings of the reformation you will discover that the Roman Catholic leaders thought that martin luther was more than a sham. And do you mean to tell me that the Pope did not think that luther was a sham and doing deceitful work? Many died at the time of the reformation for what they believed was true on both sides of the coin.

 

[MelanieAnne]

“They were shown to me by a supernatural power.” = The “plates” were not actually SEEN with physical eyes but were seen in some sort of “vision”.

No one that has ever claimed to SEE these “plates” actually SAW them with their eyes.

 

[why_me]

I would sooner join the Orthodox Church than rejoin the LDS Church. And yes, the truth claims are great, especially considering you claim to be Catholic and Mormon, each with mutually exclusive truth claims.

And yet, if one wishes to check the bible, I see no reference to kissing icons nor do I see such a ceremony as the orthodox offer in the bible. Now I like the orthodox…many can be very devout. But I am not sure just how their service could have happened in the early stages of christianity since most christians were poor.

I can see either a simple mormon type service being offered or a simple catholic service, not the trindintine mass type but a Vatican II type. The early christians were not rich and at first they were required to part with their substance.

 

[why_me]

“They were shown to me by a supernatural power.” = The “plates” were not actually SEEN with physical eyes but were seen in some sort of “vision”.

No one that has ever claimed to SEE these “plates” actually SAW them with their eyes.

He felt the plates and looked at them! Read what he said in the second account.

 

[Religio71]

And yet, if one wishes to check the bible, I see no reference to kissing icons nor do I see such a ceremony as the orthodox offer in the bible. Now I like the orthodox…many can be very devout. But I am not sure just how their service could have happened in the early stages of christianity since most christians were poor.

I can see either a simple mormon type service being offered or a simple catholic service, not the trindintine mass type but a Vatican II type. The early christians were not rich and at first they were required to part with their substance.

Neither Catholics nor Orthodox claim that the Tridentine Mass, Mass of Paul VI or the Divine Liturgy are how the early Christians worshipped. They do have the same elements and structure. The early Christians did not wear suits or have lights in the churches or homes. So your statement is based on a false premise, because neither of our Churches claim to worship as the early Christians did. Catholics do claim to believe as the early Christians did, since we are the same Church. But you know that, being Catholic, right?

Also, try reading about the oldest liturgy still in use, the Divine Liturgy of St. James. Some date it to AD 60, and includes many words used in both Catholic and Orthodox liturgies, and is more similar to our services, and NOT the LDS sacrament meeting.

 

[why_me]

I guess the fact that these “witnesses” didn’t actually SEE the so-called “golden plates” isn’t troublesome for some people.

Here is Hiram Page’s son speaking during an interview. Hiram Page was also one of the eight witnesses:

In 1838, the church was experiencing some of it’s most turbulent times in Missouri. Hiram Page took his family and voluntarily left the church. Partly because he reached his breaking point on persecution, and partly because two of his brothers-in-law were excommunicated. He relocated his family to Ray County, Missouri, where he lived out the rest of his life on a farm. He died on August 12, 1852.

Even though he left the church, he didn’t leave his testimony of the divinity and authenticity of the Book of Mormon. In 1888, Philander Page, Hiram’s Son, was interviewed and had this to say about his father:

“I knew my father to be true and faithful to his testimony of the divinity of the Book of Mormon until the very last. Whenever he had an opportunity to bear his testimony to this effect, he would always do so, and seemed to rejoice exceedingly in having been privileged to see the plates and thus become one of the Eight Witnesses.”

This was over 30 years after his father’s death. Philander was not affiliated with the church, and would have no reason to lie about his father’s testimony. He could have easily said that he never rejoined the church because his father admitted it was all made up. Instead he reaffirms his father’s knowledge that the Book of Mormon is divine and authentic, and that Hiram Page did in fact see, touch, and lift the plates.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Nothing but mormon lies. It may be that some are gullible enough, don’t expect that others don’t see right through it all.

 

[Eliza10]

Recently I have become very familiar with the Mormon religion over the past year…
I do believe that some of the Mormon teachings are from the Bible; however a large majority of them are not. …
Now for the actual question regarding this thread; why are there so many Mormon followers? In my opinion is because the religion doesn’t give its followers time to pray and reflect on their beliefs. Sunday church service consists of three hours, an hour of sacrament which is really members sharing their testimony, an hour of Priesthood and Relief Society and an hour of Sunday school. All of which, are constantly push the revelations of Joseph Smith with the occasional reference to the Bible. What happens if you don’t go to church on Sunday, you have members coming to your house asking why you didn’t go? You also have Family Home Evening on Mondays, Institute several times a week, and Visiting Teachers and Home Teachers constantly preaching Joseph Smith’s revelations.

… LDS members constantly have to be surrounded and reminded or Joseph Smith’s revelations. If not they start to question their beliefs, which is why church is 3 hours, and you have institute, home and visitor teachers, dinner for the missionaries etc…

Again, the Mormon religion has some good core values, but their beliefs are from the revelations of a man who didn’t know which religion was right for him and who had a “vision.” A Vision to start a church that he can control how it wants it ran, and what people believe.

And trust me I have prayed with an open heart which church is true. I want nothing more to be married to my wife. But I have rec’d my own personal revelation from God, that the Catholic Church is the one and only true church. Like Jesus told Peter “…upon this rock I will build my church…” Notice how he didn’t say churches, there is only one church. The Catholic Church has always been that one church.

Sorry for the length but I have been wanting to say this for a long time.

I found your post very intersting. I have been observing my Mormon friend’s practice and religion, and every time I marvel of the good in it, like honoring Sabbath, service to others, faithful devotions, my eyes are then opened to things very disturbing. Like when I visited her church and every testimony ended with “…And I believe in Joseph Smith, that he was a prophet, etc.” Its way too out of balance!

An article she gave me to read and the picture had white-shirted young folks all holding up a Book of Mormon. How about the Bible?? But its always Book of Mormon! And in the article also there were lots and lots of footnotes. I checked them, as I wanted to read the article and share points of agreement with my friend. But most quotes were from Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants - not even a 4th from Scripture! I just couldn’t get through it.

The Book of Mormon is so BORING and hard to sludge through. I think it takes a lot of discipline of mind to try to glean some godly lessons from it. A lot of effort. And my friend makes the effort. I wish I could tell her there is a much easier way. But she is steeped in this.

Mormons do get an A for effort. They are busy bees. Too busy, though. You are so right. No time to* reflect*.

I agree, the Sunday morning 3 hours and the Family Home Evening and visiting teacher - its all so much. There IS good in it. Its way better than no religion. But it is Christianity with obstacles. Big ones.

God bless you for your trial with your wife. I feel for you. God sees your sacrifice for truth. St. Rita can be your patron. Her husband was a hopeless case, but he converted. She is patron Saint of hopeless cases. Pray to her for guidance, wisdom, direction, inspiration.