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farmersboy
Guest
some people argue that homosexuality was not the main sin in sodom - it was lack of charity!
iwgonline.org/docs/sodom.html
iwgonline.org/docs/sodom.html
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PTL
Guest
People like to downplay the sin of homosexuality. But it is clear that the major sin of Sodom and Gomorrah is homosexuality (in action).
Here is a question and answer from New Advent library:
newadvent.org/library/almanac_thisrock92.htm
Here is a question and answer from New Advent library:
newadvent.org/library/almanac_thisrock92.htm
Deuteronomy 22:5
Be honest with God’s Word. Do not downplay any sin.
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mikekle
Guest
So why hasnt God destroyed any immoral cities in modern times? Im sure with all the advancements we have today, we are much more immoral than sodom/gomarrah, it seems to me God took a more active role in the ancient world than he does today.
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PTL
Guest
I agree we are probably more immoral than Sodom and Gomorrah. With the way it is going, God does not need to do anything like the Old Testament time to destroy us. We will destroy ourselves.
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PTL
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My friend, it is not that only gang rape is called a sin. Please!I dunno. The last time I had company over, there was a distinct lack of an angry mob at my door demanding to gang-rape my guests.
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Kamaduck
Guest
I’m just not sure how you’re measuring what’s worse, here. The widespread use of abortion might make us worse than Sodom, but on the other hand most first-world countires don’t have such awful reactions to receiving strangers. I don’t really see how you can be sure that we’re better or worse than Sodom, since we don’t know what other sins were commonplace there.
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EasterJoy
Guest
Read the prophets. Our society tolerates every kind of sin, approves of breaking every one of the Commandments. It is right outside our doors. It does matter what a nation allows.I dunno. The last time I had company over, there was a distinct lack of an angry mob at my door demanding to gang-rape my guests.
These are the things that ought to concern us the most:
Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ Matt. 25:41-45
It is not our work to cleanse the entire society, however. We have to vote for what is right, we have to advocate for what is right, we may not cooperate with the spread of tolerance for evil, but we are not guilty of sins outside the Church that we are forced to tolerate because we did not have the secular power to make it otherwise. It is enough for us to look to ourselves:
I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people, not at all referring to the immoral of this world or the greedy and robbers or idolaters; for you would then have to leave the world. But I now write to you not to associate with anyone named a brother, if he is immoral, greedy, an idolater, a slanderer, a drunkard, or a robber, not even to eat with such a person. For why should I be judging outsiders? Is it not your business to judge those within? God will judge those outside. “Purge the evil person from your midst.” 1 Cor. 5:9-13
**As for Sodom and Gomorrah, remember that the Lord promised Abraham that for the sake of ten innocent persons, he would not destroy it. **We do not need to be running around like Chicken Little about the way that the world is. It is bad, to be sure, but it is not worse than the secular world was during the first centuries of the Church. Our work is to insist that the standards of the Church do not change. When the secular civilization collapses (as they always do, because natural law is not arbitrary, but is a true foundation), the Church needs to be ready to tend to the wounded. We do not have to judge the world and it is not our business to judge the world. We only have to advocate for right standards, and not remain silent about the truth when we are given some voice. God will handle the rest.
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EasterJoy
Guest
- “For the sake of those ten,” (the LORD) replied, “I will not destroy it.”* Gen. 18:32b
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Kamaduck
Guest
I’m not saying that our society is in any way innocent. I’m just not sure how we have enough information to say that we’re worse than Sodom. Literally the only things I know about Sodom are that they gang raped their guests, homosexuality was rampant, and the entire population other than Lot and his immediate family was a part of it. Obviously our society is morally bankrupt and headed for disaster. But since I don’t know anything else about Sodom, I don’t think I can for sure say which is worse.
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PTL
Guest
Have we heard legalized abortion, Pornography, drug addiction, human traffic, euthanasia, Obamacare death panel, class war, etc. at the time of Sodom?I don’t really see how you can be sure that we’re better or worse than Sodom, since we don’t know what other sins were commonplace there.
On top of all these and more, the advocacy and lobby of homosexuality currently in the U.S. is definitely much worse than Sodom.
Sodom is just one city. The legalized homosexuality in U.S. is being promoted in entire country of numerous cities. The current government persecutes whoever does not advocate gay. The president of the U.S. is calling good evil and evil good. This behavior of purposely confusing people’s value is a grave evil itself. What other proof do we need? All the evils are writings on the wall.
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jmcrae
Guest
We are under the New Covenant, which is a Covenant of patience and forgiveness. But the Judgement Day is coming, and the Age of Mercy will come to an end. Woe to those who have not repented and amended their lives by then.
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Kamaduck
Guest
Not abortion, pornography, or euthanasia to anywhere near the same extent. They most likely had no government healthcare (probably not much in the way of healthcare at all, actually), so the “death panel” thing would have been moot. Nobody got medical care, and a lot of people died.
Drug addiction I’m not sure about, though they certainly wouldn’t have had the stuff we have today. No idea on class warfare. I don’t think we can say that there was no human traffic, since slavery was legal and normal.
I am aware, however, that some people in the ancient world practiced human sacrifices, often killing many young people to accompany a ruler or person of high social status into the afterlife. Slavery was legal and normal. Women had few rights. And, apparently, the entire male population of Sodom was in the habit of raping strangers. These are very different situations than what we deal with today, but they’re still pretty awful to say the least.
I thought homosexuality was already ubiquitous in Sodom? They didn’t have a gay lobby because the entire population was already practicing homosexuality.
Certainly, we have more depravity over here by sheer numbers of people engaged in it. On the other hand, we have more than ten faithful Catholics over here.
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Skadi
Guest
I have yet to see how homosexuality harms anyone here. If one believes homosexuality is wrong simply don’t partake in it. If your god is just he will not punish you for the deeds of your neighbor.
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EasterJoy
Guest
I’m not saying that our society is in any way innocent. I’m just not sure how we have enough information to say that we’re worse than Sodom. Literally the only things I know about Sodom are that they gang raped their guests, homosexuality was rampant, and the entire population other than Lot and his immediate family was a part of it. Obviously our society is morally bankrupt and headed for disaster. But since I don’t know anything else about Sodom, I don’t think I can for sure say which is worse.
Then the LORD said: “The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great, and their sin so grave, that I must go down and see whether or not their actions fully correspond to the cry against them that comes to me. I mean to find out.” Gen. 18:20-21I’m not saying that our society is in any way innocent. I’m just not sure how we have enough information to say that we’re worse than Sodom. Literally the only things I know about Sodom are that they gang raped their guests, homosexuality was rampant, and the entire population other than Lot and his immediate family was a part of it. Obviously our society is morally bankrupt and headed for disaster. But since I don’t know anything else about Sodom, I don’t think I can for sure say which is worse.
“The two angels reached Sodom in the evening, as Lot was sitting at the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he got up to greet them; and bowing down with his face to the ground, he said, “Please, gentlemen, come aside into your servant’s house for the night, and bathe your feet; you can get up early to continue your journey.” But they replied,* “No, we shall pass the night in the town square.” He urged them so strongly, however, that they turned aside to his place and entered his house.** He prepared a meal for them, baking cakes without leaven, and they dined.
**Before they went to bed, all the townsmen of Sodom, both young and old - all the people to the last man - closed in on the house. **They called to Lot and said to him, “Where are the men who came to your house tonight? Bring them out to us that we may have intimacies with them.” Lot went out to meet them at the entrance. When he had shut the door behind him, he said, “I beg you, my brothers, not to do this wicked thing. I have two daughters who have never had intercourse with men. Let me bring them out to you, and you may do to them as you please. But don’t do anything to these men, for you know they have come under the shelter of my roof.” They replied, “Stand back! This fellow,” they sneered, “came here as an immigrant, and now he dares to give orders! We’ll treat you worse than them!” With that, they pressed hard against Lot, moving in closer to break down the door. But his guests put out their hands, pulled Lot inside with them, and closed the door; at the same time they struck the men at the entrance of the house, one and all, with such a blinding light that they were utterly unable to reach the doorway.
Then the angels said to Lot: “Who else belongs to you here? Your sons (sons-in-law) and your daughters and all who belong to you in the city - take them away from it! We are about to destroy this place, for the outcry reaching the LORD against those in the city is so great that he has sent us to destroy it.” So Lot went out and spoke to his sons-in-law, who had contracted marriage with his daughters. “Get up and leave this place,” he told them; “the LORD is about to destroy the city.” But his sons-in-law thought he was joking.
As dawn was breaking, the angels urged Lot on, saying, “On your way! Take with you your wife and your two daughters who are here, or you will be swept away in the punishment of the city.” When he hesitated, the men, by the LORD’S mercy, seized his hand and the hands of his wife and his two daughters and led them to safety outside the city… *
Now, after this happens, Lot’s daughters (who just lost their husbands in a horrific fire) proceeded to get Lot drunk on successive nights so they could get pregnant by their father. We have some people with a very skewed idea of morality, to say the very least. Still, the fact that Lot thought he could appease the men of Sodom by offering his daughters proves that he did not consider them entirely homosexual. I don’t think there is any doubt that this was an act of violence by the town on strangers, not something to satisfy individual sexual appetites but something meant to entertain a depraved mob, because of the number of on-lookers. (continued…)
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EasterJoy
Guest
We should not, however, conclude that our societies aren’t worse, nor that the mob behavior was their only sin:I’m not saying that our society is in any way innocent. I’m just not sure how we have enough information to say that we’re worse than Sodom. Literally the only things I know about Sodom are that they gang raped their guests, homosexuality was rampant, and the entire population other than Lot and his immediate family was a part of it. Obviously our society is morally bankrupt and headed for disaster. But since I don’t know anything else about Sodom, I don’t think I can for sure say which is worse.
*As I live, says the Lord GOD, I swear that your sister Sodom, with her daughters, has not done as you and your daughters have done! And look at the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters were proud, sated with food, complacent in their prosperity, and they gave no help to the poor and needy. Rather, they became haughty and committed abominable crimes in my presence; then, as you have seen, I removed them. *
Ez. 16:48-50
We also know this about what the early Church thought of Sodom compared to their own times:
I wish to remind you, although you know all things, that (the) Lord who once saved a people from the land of Egypt later destroyed those who did not believe. The angels too, who did not keep to their own domain but deserted their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains, in gloom, for the judgment of the great day. Likewise, Sodom, Gomorrah, and the surrounding towns, which, in the same manner as they, indulged in sexual promiscuity and practiced unnatural vice, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire. Similarly, these dreamers nevertheless also defile the flesh, scorn lordship, and revile glorious beings.
**Yet the archangel Michael, when he argued with the devil in a dispute over the body of Moses, did not venture to pronounce a reviling judgment upon him but said, “May the Lord rebuke you!” **But these people revile what they do not understand and are destroyed by what they know by nature like irrational animals. Woe to them! They followed the way of Cain, abandoned themselves to Balaam’s error for the sake of gain, and perished in the rebellion of Korah. These are blemishes on your love feasts, as they carouse fearlessly and look after themselves.
They are waterless clouds blown about by winds, fruitless trees in late autumn, twice dead and uprooted. They are like wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shameless deeds, wandering stars for whom the gloom of darkness has been reserved forever. Enoch, of the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied also about them when he said, “Behold, the Lord has come with his countless holy ones to execute judgment on all and to convict everyone for all the godless deeds that they committed and for all the harsh words godless sinners have uttered against him.” These people are complainers, disgruntled ones who live by their desires; their mouths utter bombast as they fawn over people to gain advantage.
But you, beloved, remember the words spoken beforehand by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ, for they told you, “In (the) last time there will be scoffers who will live according to their own godless desires.” These are the ones who cause divisions; they live on the natural plane, devoid of the Spirit. 1 Jude 5-19
And of course, this, from the words of Our Lord:
Whoever will not receive you or listen to your words - go outside that house or town and shake the dust from your feet. Amen, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town. Matt. 10:14-15
and
And as for you, Capernaum: ‘Will you be exalted to heaven? You will go down to the netherworld.’ For if the mighty deeds done in your midst had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. But I tell you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom on the day of judgment than for you." Matt. 11:23-24
This all says that we are bound to speak the truth, we are bound to deny immoral behaviors and attitudes within our own ranks, but we are also to leave judgment to God of those outside the fold.
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EasterJoy
Guest
Yes, you are right, our faith does not require us to judge anyone outside our ranks. In our capacity as participants in civil life, however, we are bound to make laws which reflect morality which is binding not just on us, but on the whole human race. That does not mean that we have to make everything that is wrong into a civil crime. It does mean that we cannot cooperate with efforts to encourage immorality, which we believe damages both the person and the society they live in. It is not moral for us to stand by and make laws that actively encourage others to ruin themselves, or that imply a lie.
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PTL
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Population wise, the ten in time of Sodom probably should be ten million today. Do we have that many faithful Catholics? According to statistics, 60% Catholics approve “gay marriage”, that percentage is above than the non-Catholics who support “gay marriage”.On the other hand, we have more than ten faithful Catholics over here.
As a Catholic and want to redefine what God defined is far away from faithful. Overwriting God’s law is actually disobedient and sinful.
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mikekle
Guest
Yeah gang raping strangers may not happen that often, but MUCH MUCH worse things go on in todays world, now it fairly common to hear of people buying and selling young kids purely for sexual purposes, Im talking about kids anywhere from 2yr old up to 12-13 yrs old!!! IMO, this is about the worse possible sexual sin anyone can commit, and it is common to hear about such things on the news every day. They just broke up a pedophile ring around Cincinnati OH that included about 100 people from all over the country, who would buy and sell young kids like picking items up at the grocery store…this just amazes me people have sunk to this level, as rape wasnt bad enough, now they are raping kids 5 yrs old!!!I dunno. The last time I had company over, there was a distinct lack of an angry mob at my door demanding to gang-rape my guests.
while the police did break up this ring, I am positive it will just be replaced by another, and they probably learn from each bust how to be more secretive, PLUS, the larger issue, while they busted these people, Im assuming most of these people were low level pedophiles, they never seem to get to the big fish, Ive heard the elite in this country are all pedophiles, the rockefellers, Bilderbergs, and such, all these elite groups probably run the child sex industry all over the world, but the police never seem to arrest these kinds of people…Funny how that works!!!I guess its true, once you are so powerful, you can pretty much do what you want. Im glad they will have to stand before God one day though. their power and money wont help them then!!!
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EasterJoy
Guest
Well, yes, but we cannot use bad means to achieve a moral end. It is not OK to discourage homosexual behavior or to falsely pretend homosexuality and heterosexuality are the same thing by treating people with same-sex attraction as if they did not have the same human dignity as anyone else. In that sense, of course Catholics have to be tolerant of homosexuals, just as we are tolerant of everyone else, because everyone faces temptations. It is not immoral to mind our own business. We are morally bound, however, to oppose laws that encourage immoral behavior, to the extent that we are able.
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