why are some rejecting the cup

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Yes, we all agree that Christ commanded the Bishops who were present with him to partake of both species, and we fully agree that Bishops should do so :rolleyes:
The apostles were not bishops at that time,they were disciples. There could only be bishops after Christ had been resurrected – when there was a Resurrection that could be preached;and after Pentacost – when there was an organized,wide-spread Church with designated areas of jurisdiction.
 
Didn’t He know who He would pick as bishops at that point? There was probably a reason He chose those people to be with Him in the upper room.
 
Originally Posted by Brendan
Yes, we all agree that Christ commanded the Bishops who were present with him to partake of both species, and we fully agree that Bishops should do so

The apostles were not bishops at that time,they were disciples. There could only be bishops after Christ had been resurrected – when there was a Resurrection that could be preached;and after Pentacost – when there was an organized,wide-spread Church with designated areas of jurisdiction.

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1O.HTM

At the Last Supper Jesus anticipated the free offering of his life

611 The Eucharist that Christ institutes at that moment will be the memorial of his sacrifice.431 Jesus includes the apostles in his own offering and bids them perpetuate it.432 By doing so, the Lord **institutes his apostles as priests **of the New Covenant: "For their sakes I sanctify myself, so that they also may be sanctified in truth."433
 

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1O.HTM

At the Last Supper Jesus anticipated the free offering of his life

611 The Eucharist that Christ institutes at that moment will be the memorial of his sacrifice.431 Jesus includes the apostles in his own offering and bids them perpetuate it.432 By doing so, the Lord **institutes his apostles as priests **of the New Covenant: "For their sakes I sanctify myself, so that they also may be sanctified in truth."433
The apostles did not actually become priests of the New Covenant until after the central event of the New Covenant – the Resurrection – had taken place and they came to believe in it.
They did not believe in the Resurrection of Christ until he appeared to them after his death. And they did not receive the commission to evangelize the world until after the Resurrection.
 
Didn’t He know who He would pick as bishops at that point? There was probably a reason He chose those people to be with Him in the upper room.
I’m not sure if Jesus picked anyone as bishop. He chose apostles,who had no ecclesiastical jurisdiction while Jesus was with them. Before the Resurrection happened,there was no Resurrection for the apostles to preach. There was not even a Catholic Church before Pentacost. Peter was the head of the apostles and the rock of the church,so he probably chose where the other apostles were to preside as bishops,himself being the head bishop.
 
The apostles did not actually become priests of the New Covenant until after the central event of the New Covenant – the Resurrection – had taken place and they came to believe in it…
Anthony,

Your Ecclesiology is so off base it’s amazing.

Why don’t you print off what you wrote here and go talk to your pastor about it. He’ll correct your misunderstandings.

Better yet, find out what seminary your diocese uses, and send off an email to a professor of Systematic Theology.

If you can’t find such a professor, contact Fr. Mark Hamilton at Sacred Heart Major Seminary in Detroit, he was my Ecclesiology professor: HamiltonM@shms.edu

Best of all, sign up for an Ecclesiology class.

The Church was founded at the Cross. As Eve came from Adam’s side, the founding of the Church flowed from Christ’s side in blood and water.

The Church recieved Her MISSION at Pentecost, but it was founded on Calvary.

And yes, the New Covenant was established at the Last Supper, the same time that Christ instituted the Eucharist.

Christ Himself said that this was the Cup of the New and Everlasting Covenant, did you think He was somehow mistaken when He said that.

Also, in the Eucharist, we recieve the Body and Blood of the Ressurected Christ, … what did the Apostles recieve at the Last Supper?
I’m not sure if Jesus picked anyone as bishop. He chose apostles,who had no ecclesiastical jurisdiction while Jesus was with them.
A Bishop is defined as someone who has recieved the Sacrament of Holy Orders and carries the Authority of the Apostles.

So which one did the Apostles not have? Holy Orders or the Authority of themselves?
 
Anthony,

Your Ecclesiology is so off base it’s amazing.

Why don’t you print off what you wrote here and go talk to your pastor about it. He’ll correct your misunderstandings.

Better yet, find out what seminary your diocese uses, and send off an email to a professor of Systematic Theology.

If you can’t find such a professor, contact Fr. Mark Hamilton at Sacred Heart Major Seminary in Detroit, he was my Ecclesiology professor: HamiltonM@shms.edu

Best of all, sign up for an Ecclesiology class.

The Church was founded at the Cross. As Eve came from Adam’s side, the founding of the Church flowed from Christ’s side in blood and water.

The Church recieved Her MISSION at Pentecost, but it was founded on Calvary.

And yes, the New Covenant was established at the Last Supper, the same time that Christ instituted the Eucharist.

Christ Himself said that this was the Cup of the New and Everlasting Covenant, did you think He was somehow mistaken when He said that.

Also, in the Eucharist, we recieve the Body and Blood of the Ressurected Christ, … what did the Apostles recieve at the Last Supper?

A Bishop is defined as someone who has recieved the Sacrament of Holy Orders and carries the Authority of the Apostles.

So which one did the Apostles not have? Holy Orders or the Authority of themselves?
At the Holy Thursday Mass, the institution of the priesthood is always mentioned in my parish. The priests even prostrate themselves like they did when they were ordained, and they renew their promises that they made when they were ordained.
 
At the Holy Thursday Mass, the institution of the priesthood is always mentioned in my parish. The priests even prostrate themselves like they did when they were ordained, and they renew their promises that they made when they were ordained.
The Popes also issue their annual Letter to the Priests on Holy Thursday, because that is the anniversary of the Institution of Holy Orders.
 
Best of all, sign up for an Ecclesiology class.

The Church was founded at the Cross. As Eve came from Adam’s side, the founding of the Church flowed from Christ’s side in blood and water.

The Church recieved Her MISSION at Pentecost, but it was founded on Calvary.

I’ll take the word of the pope instead.
The Church not only received its mission at Pentacost,but the Church came into existence at Pentacost. The apostles received their mission when the resurrected Christ breathed upon them the Holy Spirit.

piercedhearts.org/benedict_xvi/angelus/may_27_07.htm

< Dear Brothers and Sisters!

Today we celebrate the great feast of Pentecost. And through today’s liturgy we relive the birth of the Church as it is narrated by Luke in the book of the Acts of the Apostles (2:1-13). Fifty days after Easter, the Holy Spirit descended upon the community of disciples – “persevering with one mind in prayer” – gathered together “with Mary, the mother of Jesus” and with the twelve apostles (cf. Acts 1:14; 2,1).

We can say, therefore, that the Church had its solemn beginning with the descent of the Holy Spirit. In this extraordinary event we find the essential and qualifying marks of the Church: the Church is one, like the community of Pentecost, which was united in prayer and “of one mind”: “it had but one heart and one soul” (Acts 4:32). >

And yes, the New Covenant was established at the Last Supper, the same time that Christ instituted the Eucharist.

The New Covenant was established at the Crucifixion.

ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/b16sacramcarit.htm

< 9. …In the mystery of Christ’s obedience unto death, even death on a Cross (cf. Phil 2:8), the new and eternal covenant was brought about. >

zenit.org/article-16216?l=english

< On speaking of the tongues of fire (cf. Acts 3), St. Luke wants to represent Pentecost as a new Sinai, as the feast of the new Covenant, in which the Covenant with Israel is extended to all the nations of the earth. The Church has been catholic and missionary from her birth. The universality of salvation is manifested with the list of the numerous ethnic groups to which those belonged who heard the apostles’ first proclamation (cf. Acts 2:9-11). >

Christ Himself said that this was the Cup of the New and Everlasting Covenant, did you think He was somehow mistaken when He said that.

Of course not. But the fact is that his blood,the blood of the new covenant,had not yet been shed.
And the apostles did not believe in the Resurrection until Jesus appeared to them after his death. Nor did they have the Holy Spirit until the resurrected Christ breathed upon them. So how can the apostles who were still learners rather than a teachers,who had not yet come to believe in the Resurrection,and who has not yet received the gift of the Holy Spirit be regarded as priests or bishops?

freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1407609/posts

< With priestly ordination you are inserted into the Apostolic mission. The Holy Spirit is wind, but it is not amorphous; it is an orderly Spirit. It becomes manifest precisely when it orders the mission, in the Sacrament of the Priesthood, in which the ministry of the Apostles is continued.

Through this ministry, you are inserted in the multitude of those who, beginning with Pentecost, have received the apostolic mission. >
 
Also, in the Eucharist, we recieve the Body and Blood of the Ressurected Christ, … what did the Apostles recieve at the Last Supper?

The Body and Blood of Christ,who was still to be crucified and resurrected.

A Bishop is defined as someone who has recieved the Sacrament of Holy Orders and carries the Authority of the Apostles.

So which one did the Apostles not have? Holy Orders or the Authority of themselves?

At the Last Supper,it was Christ alone who was priest.

ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/b16sacramcarit.htm

< 23. The intrinsic relationship between the Eucharist and the sacrament of Holy Orders clearly emerges from Jesus’ own words in the Upper Room: “Do this in memory of me” (Lk 22:19). On the night before he died, Jesus instituted the Eucharist and at the same time established the priesthood of the New Covenant. He is priest, victim and altar: the mediator between God the Father and his people (cf. Heb 5:5-10), the victim of atonement (cf. 1 Jn 2:2, 4:10) who offers himself on the altar of the Cross. >
 
anthony022071, you’ve made it more difficult to respond by putting your responses in the quotation of another, because the forum doesn’t include quoted text when responding!

Suffice to say, I will have rebuttals for your appeals to Pope Benedict’s writing on the matter. In the mean time, consider googling for: church born “from the side of christ”. You’ll see that “one” of the “births” of the Church has traditionally been the crucifixion, when blood and water flowed forth from the side of Christ: just as the bride of Adam was born from his side while he slept, so the Bride of Christ (the Church) is born from His side while he slept (in death). And you yourself quoted that “Jesus instituted the Eucharist and at the same time established the priesthood of the New Covenant”.

The Last Supper. The Crucifixion. The Resurrection. Pentecost. All of these are the “birth” of the Church. Not either/or, but both/and.
 
Originally Posted by Brendan
The Popes also issue their annual Letter to the Priests on Holy Thursday, because that is the anniversary of the Institution of Holy Orders.

When the pope holds a mass of priestly ordination,it is on Pentacost Sunday.

ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/B16PEN05.HTM

SACRAMENTUM CARITATIS
OF THE HOLY FATHER
BENEDICT XVI

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_ben-xvi_exh_20070222_sacramentum-caritatis_en.html#Ars_celebrandi

IV. The Eucharist and the Sacrament of Holy Orders

In persona Christi capitis
  1. The intrinsic relationship between the Eucharist and the sacrament of Holy Orders clearly emerges from Jesus’ own words in the Upper Room: “Do this in memory of me” (Lk 22:19). On the night before he died, Jesus instituted the Eucharist and at the same time established the priesthood of the New Covenant.
 
Here is the Catechism on the subject
766 The Church is born primarily of Christ’s total self-giving for our salvation, anticipated in the institution of the Eucharist and fulfilled on the cross. “The origin and growth of the Church are symbolized by the blood and water which flowed from the open side of the crucified Jesus” “For it was from the side of Christ as he slept the sleep of death upon the cross that there came forth the ‘wondrous sacrament of the whole Church.’” As Eve was formed from the sleeping Adam’s side, **so the Church was born **from the pierced heart of Christ hanging dead on the cross.[173]
And this is the Reading from the Divine Office ( an official Liturgy of the Church)

From St. John Chrystom - Doctor of the Church
It is from these two that the holy Church has been born ‘by the washing of regeneration and the renewal of the Holy Spirit’ , by Baptism and by the mysteries. Now the symbols of Baptism and the mysteries came from his side. It was from his side, then, that Christ formed the Church, as from the side of Adam he formed Eve.
Here is a few questions for you.

What Sacraments, if any, were instituted at the Last Supper?

Was the Eucharist that the Apostles recieved the same Eucharist that we recieve ( the Resurrected Christ), if so how, if not what Body of Christ did the Apostles recieve?
 
< 23. The intrinsic relationship between the Eucharist and the sacrament of Holy Orders clearly emerges from Jesus’ own words in the Upper Room: “Do this in memory of me” (Lk 22:19). On the night before he died, Jesus instituted the Eucharist and at the same time established the priesthood of the New Covenant. He is priest, victim and altar: the mediator between God the Father and his people (cf. Heb 5:5-10), the victim of atonement (cf. 1 Jn 2:2, 4:10) who offers himself on the altar of the Cross. >

Just noticed you had already posted the above. You are reading something other than the intended meaning.
 

SACRAMENTUM CARITATIS
OF THE HOLY FATHER
BENEDICT XVI

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_ben-xvi_exh_20070222_sacramentum-caritatis_en.html#Ars_celebrandi

IV. The Eucharist and the Sacrament of Holy Orders

In persona Christi capitis
  1. The intrinsic relationship between the Eucharist and the sacrament of Holy Orders clearly emerges from Jesus’ own words in the Upper Room: “Do this in memory of me” (Lk 22:19). On the night before he died, Jesus instituted the Eucharist and at the same time established the priesthood of the New Covenant.
I quoted that passage. When Christ established the priesthood of the New Covenant at the Last Supper it was Christ himself who was the priest,by imitating Melchizedek,who brought out bread and wine to Abraham.
Christ did not ordain the apostles as priests at that time. He had not given them his Spirit.

Psalm 110:
“The Lord has sworn, and he will not repent: You are a priest forever, according to the order of Melchizedek” (110:4).

Catechism:

1544 Everything that the priesthood of the Old Covenant prefigured finds its fulfillment in Christ Jesus, the “one mediator between God and men.”[15] The Christian tradition considers Melchizedek, “priest of God Most High,” as a prefiguration of the priesthood of Christ, the unique “high priest after the order of Melchizedek”;[16] “holy, blameless, unstained,”[17] “by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are sanctified,”[18] that is, by the unique sacrifice of the cross.

A priest is consecrated with the Holy Spirit and is given the commission to teach. The apostles were not consecrated with the Holy Spirit at that time,nor were they given the commission to teach. They were ordained as priests when the resurrected Christ breathed the Holy Spirit upon them and gave them the authority to forgive sins.

1558 “Episcopal consecration confers, together with the office of sanctifying, also the offices of teaching and ruling… In fact … by the imposition of hands and through the words of the consecration, the grace of the Holy Spirit is given, and a sacred character is impressed in such wise that bishops, in an eminent and visible manner, take the place of Christ himself, teacher, shepherd, and priest, and act as his representative (in Eius persona agant).”[37] “By virtue, therefore, of the Holy Spirit who has been given to them, bishops have been constituted true and authentic teachers of the faith and have been made pontiffs and pastors.”[38]
 
anthony022071, you’ve made it more difficult to respond by putting your responses in the quotation of another, because the forum doesn’t include quoted text when responding!

Suffice to say, I will have rebuttals for your appeals to Pope Benedict’s writing on the matter. In the mean time, consider googling for: church born “from the side of christ”. You’ll see that “one” of the “births” of the Church has traditionally been the crucifixion, when blood and water flowed forth from the side of Christ: just as the bride of Adam was born from his side while he slept, so the Bride of Christ (the Church) is born from His side while he slept (in death). And you yourself quoted that “Jesus instituted the Eucharist and at the same time established the priesthood of the New Covenant”.

The Last Supper. The Crucifixion. The Resurrection. Pentecost. All of these are the “birth” of the Church. Not either/or, but both/and.
  1. The intrinsic relationship between the Eucharist and the sacrament of Holy Orders clearly emerges from Jesus’ own words in the Upper Room: “Do this in memory of me” (Lk 22:19). On the night before he died, Jesus instituted the Eucharist and at the same time established the priesthood of the New Covenant…
 
Some churches dip the “Host” into the “Wine” and offer it that way.
It is the most hygenic way, for those who are worried… can’t all the churches offer it that way? The other catholic churches have the small indiviual cups, wine or juice, for your preference…
We should all be grateful for the Gift, our Lord has given us, and use our common sense, instead of finding fault about this or that…
What a blessing we all have.
Are you praying for those who have no one to pray for them?
I don’t know of any Catholic churches (in any rite) which offer small individual cups of wine (juice?? What Catholic church does THAT? That’s unbiblical!).
 
From the Catechism of Pope St. Pius X:
4 Q: When did Jesus Christ institute the Sacerdotal Order?
A: Jesus Christ instituted the Sacerdotal Order at the Last Supper when he conferred on the Apostles and their successors the power of consecrating the Blessed Eucharist. Then on the day of His resurrection He conferred on them the power of remitting and retaining sin, thus constituting them the first Priests of the New Law in all the fullness of their power.
 
I don’t know of any Catholic churches (in any rite) which offer small individual cups of wine (juice?? What Catholic church does THAT? That’s unbiblical!).
That is a liturgical abuse. It cannot be allowed in the Catholic Church.
 
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