Why are you a Protestant(over Catholicism)?

[historyfan81]

that does not contradict my point , yes the papacy existed no one denies that but this man even said it :they acted like the court .
the pope a kin to the higth priest but did not rule alone or possed unlimted authority
this supports the concensus that we have today .

evidence that the church of Rome was led by a college of presbyters (along with the pope) , rather than a single bishop, for at least several decades of the second century ( Sullivan, Francis A. (2001).
the clement argument is not a strong evidence for it

The author called on the congregation to repent, to restore the elders to their position, and to obey their superiors. He said that the apostoles had appointed the church leadership and directed them on how to perpetuate the ministry.

Its not like clement imposed this but rather guide them

Clement wrote like paul ( so much so that some historians call it 3 corinthians ) here and guiding them ( you dont need papal authority to do this church fathers did this and they where not popes well at least the majority)

not an edict or an imposition , its not a real argument to prove papal supremacy in the early church.

does that mean the pope was not special ,he was but the notion of his power evolved over time , one great example of this is the filioque controversy , both where orthodox chalcedonian and they both agreed on the theology but the east said we had not conviened a council to add to this and the west replied he is the pope he has authority to do so , if supremacy was a very early concept this debate in the 6th century would not have happend.

 

[stoplooklisten]

Ok I’ll bite. I had many of these same questions about Catholicism, and so I went and read the RCC (among others). Please have a look at the 2nd Helvetic Confession of Faith (attached below) - it will answer most of the questions you’ve asked, at least with regard to Reformed Protestantism.

https://www.ccel.org/creeds/helvetic.htm

(This one is not used as often as the Westminster Confession, but I like it because it reads easier).

By what authority were the Helvetic confessions and Westminster Confession formulated? What gives them validity today and where should they be applied? The Westminster standards were formulated under the direction of the English Parliament during a tumultuous period of British history and the reign of King Charles I.

If every individual picks their confessions, creeds and more according to personal preferences and likes, where does that lead? The church is more than doctrines. Salvation is derived from more than intellectual assent to a set of doctrines. The Church is One. There is one Head, one Body, One Spirit, One Faith, One Baptism. Graces are needed. Sacraments are more than symbols. They are needed.

 

[historyfan81]

As for Víctor I he did face questoning
As the Eastern churches called him put on it and Polycrates even wrote a response letter to Pope Victor.
Also even with the treath it’s not like they accepted his authority or his ultimatum

Victor had to relent in the end and we see that the Eastern Churches never grant him presidency over anything in the matter

In fact Victor did not solve anything As the date of observance of the Resurrection of Christ was not resolved by papal authority it was only finally resolved by an Ecumenical Council.

 

[JonNC]

Limoncello4021:

That’s a curious take, because Catholics compiled the Bible originally, long before the Protestants decided to take some books out of it. How do you know they were correct in doing so?

That’s funny, because the principle person commissioned by the Pope to compile and translate the Bible into Latin, did so by placing them in a separate section designated as Deuterocanonical books, and said that while they are useful, they shouldn’t be used in the liturgy. Which sounds stunningly like the Reformers’ position on the Deuterocanonical works. It appears to me that the Reformers are actually taking the more ancient tradition on this matter.

Curiously, the LCMS has a history of using the DC’s in the lectionary. Wish we still did.

 

[mcq72]

So why are you Protestant (rather than Catholic)?

Because I was spiritually birthed there., though the Catholic church was a seed planter.

 

[mcq72]

The church is more than doctrines

Interesting. I wonder who has the most doctrines? What church has gone from a page full of council decrees at Nicea to pages and pages of decrees at Trent?

If every individual picks their confessions, creeds and more according to personal preferences and likes, where does that lead?

Leaving personal preferences and likes (personal conscience and convictions) out of the picture would lead to what?

The fact is we have all made matters of faith a personal choice. Jesus dignifies the apostles, and all true disciples, by asking not just what others may think of Him, but “whom do you say that I am?”. Sounds like a personal choice and even a personal reckoning is part of the equation.

 

[stoplooklisten]

Leaving personal preferences and likes (personal conscience and convictions) out of the picture would lead to what?

The fact is we have all made matters of faith a personal choice. Jesus dignifies the apostles, and all true disciples, by asking not just what others may think of Him, but “whom do you say that I am?”. Sounds like a personal choice and even a personal reckoning is part of the equation.

That’s an interesting new doctrine (and an interesting one text to base it upon). Have you not been taught to consider context when interpreting Scripture?

Whn you view it in context, Jesus is asking His disciples collectively what the crowds thought about his identity and what they collectively thought. He is leading them to recognition that his identity was that of the promised Messiah. He is leading them into Jesus’s declaration that Peter was to have a primacy as the “rock” upon which Jesus’s Church would be built. Jesus is also giving authority to those inner disciples to loose and to bind. Jesus has one Church that he founded upon Twelve Apostles (much like the ancient Israelites were built upon a foundation of Twelve Tribes). In the USA at least, I have observed that people regularly try to start their own 501(c) independent church businesses. They often go out of business. The Catholic Church has been operating across 21 centuries.

**

Peter’s Confession About Jesus… 13 When Jesus went into the region of Caesarea Philippi he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” 14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist, others Elijah, still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” 15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 j Simon Peter said in reply, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.” 17 Jesus said to him in reply, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. 18 And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” (Matthew 16:13-20)

**

 

[TULIPed]

By what authority were the Helvetic confessions and Westminster Confession formulated? What gives them validity today and where should they be applied? The Westminster standards were formulated under the direction of the English Parliament during a tumultuous period of British history and the reign of King Charles I.

Chapter 17 and 18 of the Confession deal with this matter, I’d refer you there for a start. Governance in the reformed tradition is beyond the scope of the OP. However, if you’re really interested, please start a new thread and I’d be happy to discuss it with you there.

If every individual picks their confessions, creeds and more according to personal preferences and likes, where does that lead?

Were you born a Catholic or did you become one later in life? In either case, how did choice figure into your faith? And in the final analysis, who really does the “choosing”?

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 just as he chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless before him in love. 5 He destined us for adoption as his children through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace that he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.”

(Sorry - I can’t help myself. I’m a Calvinist after all )

 

[stoplooklisten]

Chapter 17 and 18 of the Confession deal with this matter, I’d refer you there for a start. Governance in the reformed tradition is beyond the scope of the OP. However, if you’re really interested, please start a new thread and I’d be happy to discuss it with you there.

So even if the Second Helvetic Confession had authority for some Protestants, do they truly follow it? Was it infallible? Could it amended? What about other Protestants, how do they operate without it?

stoplooklisten:

If every individual picks their confessions, creeds and more according to personal preferences and likes, where does that lead?

Were you born a Catholic or did you become one later in life? In either case, how did choice figure into your faith? And in the final analysis, who really does the “choosing”?

“Pick and choose” leads to the type of sad situation described at the end of the Old Testament Book of Judges: “In those days there was no king in Israel; everyone did what was right in their own sight.”

At my infant baptism, I joined the Catholic Church with the support of my parents and godparents. Later in life, I made multiple choices to cooperate willingly with the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.

 

[TULIPed]

“Pick and choose” leads to the type of sad situation described at the end of the Old Testament Book of Judges: “In those days there was no king in Israel; everyone did what was right in their own sight.”

My King is God - Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Who’s your King? I’m going to take a wild guess and say that we both have the same King

We can argue about how He delegates authority on another thread if you’d like, but suffice it to say that I pray for unity amongst all believers - sooner than later.

 

[Hodos]

Curiously, the LCMS has a history of using the DC’s in the lectionary. Wish we still did.

I don’t particularly have a bone to pick with that practice. I just don’t accept the narrative that the Reformers went rogue when they were actually returning to the ancient practice of the Church in most cases (in the Lutheran tradition).

 

[JonNC]

JonNC:

Curiously, the LCMS has a history of using the DC’s in the lectionary. Wish we still did.

I don’t particularly have a bone to pick with that practice. I just don’t accept the narrative that the Reformers went rogue when they were actually returning to the ancient practice of the Church in most cases (in the Lutheran tradition).

I absolutely agree. The view of the Lutheran reformers on the canon of scripture was not novel, nor was it inconsistent with views held by Catholics throughout the centuries

 

[stoplooklisten]

suffice it to say that I pray for unity amongst all believers - sooner than later.

Amen. Amen.

 

[Padres1969]

Why? Short answer, because I was Catholic for 25 years and found too many inconsistencies, hypocrisies, and what I came to believe as fallacies to continue on. However I ultimately did not find issue with the underlying messages and teachings of Christianity so I remained Christian in a related but separate tradition.

 

[mcq72]

That’s an interesting new doctrine (and an interesting one text to base it upon

Nothing new unless you misunderstand me. I said choice is part of the program. I was careful to say Christ also asked what the apostles (us) knew what others thought. I would think that would include any magisterium and other leaders, teachers. I would also think any tradition and what our parents taught us is in there for consideration.

Whn you view it in context, Jesus is asking His disciples collectively what the crowds thought about his identity and what they collectively thought.

Yes and no. The apostles/disciples are a collective group for sure but also made up of individuals. They were first asked about opinions of another collective group, " men/ people". They answered as individuals. They did not huddle up to give a collective answer, not for the first question nor for the second.They spoke as individuals within the group. I think it is a bit strained to say the “you” is only “collective”. Certainly the revelation of the proper answer was not revealed by the Father only collectively but quite on an individual basis also. That Christ says Peter was shown by the Father quite individually is sufficient for my reasoning. All who come to Christ must be drawn by the Father, individually.

The prophet exhorted to “Choose ye this day whom you will serve.” Yes the “ye” is both collective ( the Jewish people) and on individual basis. Hence the " As for me, I will serve the Lord".

 

[mcq72]

Jesus is also giving authority to those inner disciples to loose and to bind.

Inner disciples is problematic. It was for the apostles, who had to be corrected by the Lord, saying the outer disciples were for Him also.

The Catholic Church has been operating across 21 centuries.

Well, apostolic Truth and the ecclesia it rests upon has been marching forward going on 21 centuries.

 

[RidgeSprinter]

It’s not enough to keep the laws and try to be a good person-- they need to accept Christ’s perfect atonement for their sins. The only reason I believe that I’m on my way to Heaven is because of Christ.

I grew up Pentecostal. There are so many that proclaim “they have accepted Christ” but they have nothing outwardly to show that they are a Christian except when they hoop and hollow at the next Church service. Do you call a stranger “Brother” or is that only relegated to a fellow church member?

Drac, when was the last time you directly clothed the naked or clothed those that were lacking?
Drac, when was the last time you directly quenched the thirsty?
Drac, when was the last time you directly fed the hungry?
Drac. when was the last time you visited the sick that was not a family member or church member?
Drak, when was the last time you visited the imprisoned?
Drak, when was the last time you took in a stranger without reservation or suspicion?

When Matthew 25:31-46 happens, how will you answer Jesus? Will simply saying “I believed in you” be enough?

 

[RidgeSprinter]

mcq72, when was the last time you directly clothed the naked or clothed those that were lacking?
mcq72, when was the last time you directly quenched the thirsty?
mcq72, when was the last time you directly fed the hungry?
mcq72. when was the last time you visited the sick that was not a family member or church member?
mcq72, when was the last time you visited the imprisoned?
mcq72, when was the last time you took in a stranger without reservation or suspicion?

When Matthew 25:31-46 happens, how will you answer Jesus? Will simply saying “I believed in you” be enough?

Matthew is quite clear.

 

[mcq72]

Pick and choose” leads to the type of sad situation described at the end of the Old Testament Book of Judges: “In those days there was no king in Israel; everyone did what was right in their own sight.”

Per Barnes commentary on a king for Israel:
“he (Samuel) doubtless saw how much of the evil heart of unbelief there was in the desire to have a visible king for their leader, instead of trusting to the invisible Lord who had hitherto led them”.

Yes they had leaders such as Moses
and Joshua, and judges and prophets. Yet their flesh demanded a king, where they fared no better.

We too in the church were given offices, such as presbyter, apostle, prophet and even councils at the beginning. Were we also tempted to rule out fleshly unruliness by developing a higher office, faring any better than before?

 

[mcq72]

Matthew is quite clear.

Dont forget to " Be ye perfect, as the Father in heaven is, or " unless your righteousness exceeds that of the Pharisees ( or a Mother Theresa) you shall not enter".