WHY are you NOT a Catholic?

[ATraveller]

Thank you for taking the time to respond.
Not all Protestants reject the Real Presence. The ‘finer details’ are where the differences arise for some and that also applies to the others I listed in my first post.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

And what if they did? The point is that I like having many different features and devotions to my faith.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Btw, refusing to marry a Catholic with a non-Catholic and refusing non-Catholics to give Catholic education is not maltreatment, it’s good caution.

I can’t speak to the school issue, as that would depend a lot on things like the level of enrollment of Catholic students and how the school was being funded, but generally Catholic marriages are not refused just because one party is not Catholic. There are a lot of mixed marriages. If the non-Catholic party refuses to go through with some marriage prep or expresses some problem with an aspect of essential Church teaching like being open to and willing to have children, then the priest might refuse to go forward with the marriage, but simply not being a Catholic doesn’t usually do it. My husband is not Catholic and we had no problem getting married in the Church.

It may be that the particular church or priest in this case has a hangup, or there may be more to the story here.

 

[JonNC]

And that’s a fine point.

 

[TC3033]

Brittany:

Btw, refusing to marry a Catholic with a non-Catholic and refusing non-Catholics to give Catholic education is not maltreatment, it’s good caution.

I can’t speak to the school issue, as that would depend a lot on things like the level of enrollment of Catholic students and how the school was being funded, but generally Catholic marriages are not refused just because one party is not Catholic. There are a lot of mixed marriages. If the non-Catholic party refuses to go through with some marriage prep or expresses some problem with an aspect of essential Church teaching like being open to and willing to have children, then the priest might refuse to go forward with the marriage, but simply not being a Catholic doesn’t usually do it. My husband is not Catholic and we had no problem getting married in the Church.

It may be that the particular church or priest in this case has a hangup, or there may be more to the story here.

Agreed, that is how I understand it and I’ve had a few people say that they didn’t even know that a priest could refuse marriage (espeicailly to another baptized Christian) just because one party isn’t Catholic. Honestly, this is the first time I’ve ever heard it called “good caution”.

This is kind of along the lines with my point, that the church (or priest…or posters here) sees it as “good caution” to protect my wife from marrying me or having me be any assistance in my children’s religious education just because I’m a baptized Christian from a different denomination is a big hang-up.
.

With all that said, I think this instance is the particular church and priest. I’ve noticed that much of the church leadership seems to be pretty, I don’t know how to say it…, anti NC (for lack of a better term). Then it just starts to trickle down from the top. What’s weird (from what I’m told on here) is that we’ve run into this at two different parishes.

 

[PJM]

You DID Good on the indulgences, way to Go!

Catechesis [teaching] in the RCC post Vatican II was and is to a lesser degree now, very weak. Add to this the innovations of removal of Communion Rails, a new walk around altar, the priest now on “stage” facing the congregation for Mass, often hidden Tabernacles, Holy Communion in the hand [NOW licit and valid] and “Extraordinary[ LAY] Ministers” of the Eucharist [if just anyone CAN distribute God; CAN ITBREALLY BE GOD?], and there is very much to support your husbands skeptism.

It brings to mind what Peter & the Apostles said to Jesus when He asked THEM; “do you to wish to abandon Me?” Jn. 6: 67-70 “After this many of his disciples went back; and walked no more with him. Then Jesus said to the twelve: Will you also go away? And Simon Peter answered him: Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. And we have believed and have known, that thou art the Christ, the Son of God”

FROM OUR CATECHISM

1324 The Eucharist is “the source and summit of the Christian life.” “The other sacraments, and indeed all ecclesiastical ministries and works of the apostolate, are bound up with the Eucharist and are oriented toward it. For in the blessed Eucharist is contained the whole spiritual good of the Church, namely Christ himself, our Pasch.”[Sacrifice]

1407 The Eucharist is the heart and the summit of the Church’s life, for in it Christ associates his Church and all her members with his sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving offered once for all on the cross to his Father; by this sacrifice he pours out the graces of salvation on his Body which is the Church.

So we do teach we Do believe and we do have Jesus Christ [GOD] Really, Truly and Substanually Present in our Midst. For anyone with FAITH Heb. 11:1 “Now faith is the substance of things to be hoped for, the evidence of things that appear not" and willing into the RCC, Christ One True Faith and Church CAN be intimately close to with and in GOD, while still here on earth.

HERE’S THE EVIDENCE [please look these up; space does not permit me to copy & paste them]

Mt. 26: 26-28
Mk. 14: 22-24
Lk 22: 17:20
1st. Cor 11:23-30
John 6: 47:58

Countless thousands have given their very lives as Martyrs, including 11 of the Apostles for belief of this FOUNDATIONAL Dogma.

DID THE EARLY CHURCH BELIEVE THIS? ABSOUTELY: Acts: 2:42 “And they were persevering in the doctrine of the apostles, and in the communication of the breaking of bread, [HOLY COMMUNION] and in prayers.”

So my friend, share all of this with your husband, who is missing VERY MUCH. And Pray much for his conversion.

God Bless you,
Patrick

 

[PJM]

My DEAR friend in Christ; [I’m the OP] I LOVE your POST & Questions. SADLY space limitations makes responding to them very difficult. So here is my plan. I have numbered your major concerns 1, 2, 3, 4 and will responds to each in a separate POSY REPLY

**REPLY tlanman87 **

#Q1 How is Salvation attained?

Sola Fide is a recent Luther invention of the post reformation period, that claims that Christ has already done all the work for salvation and one needs merely to acknowledge Him as their “Lord & Savior.”

1. This theory fails on several points. [Even one POST is insufficient to cover this]

It denies a right understanding of both God’s Nature and the nature of sin

GOD can be defined as ALL GOOD THINGS PERFECTED

We then ask: Are being just and fair “good things”? YES

So then we can know that God MUST BE fair and just

Gen. 1:26-27 tells us that God freely choose to Create humanity [alone] in His Image. Jn 4:23-24 then teaches “that Image is ‘SPIRIT.’ “

Genesis 1 is fulfilled because God GIFTS every human Soul with a mind, intellect and freewill, which like GOD are Spirit and immortal attributes, and attaches them prenatally to every human Soul.

Isa. 43:7 & 21 then explains WHY GOD choose to do this: “everyone who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory, whom I formed and made. & the people whom I formed for myself that THEY MIGHT [CAN freely choose to] declare my praise”

So this is teaching that LIFE IS TO BE a prolonged-GOD TEST [Proving our “worthiness” to merit our salvation time & time again. With consistency choosing the good over evil. Isa. 55: 6-8 & NT testimony: “Take UP YOUR cross and Follow Me [MY Personal example of suffering] taught 5 times. … Christ Passion makes POSSIBLE humanities REDEMTION while making humanities salvation POSSIBLE by OUR on-going-freewill choices.

“REDEMPTION” does NOT mean salvation

Redemption means that for ALL of humanity; the gate of heaven [to which He gave the KEY to Peter] was NOW reopened after having been closed by the Sin of Adam & Eve [Original Sin] [Imputed by God to all humanity, thus the GOD TEST.

END REPLY pt 1 a

 

[PJM]

REPLY Pt 1 b

Salvation is a life-long process of making good choices and sincerely repenting of our bad choices GODS WAY: See Exo. 28: 1, Lev. 5:16-18 & 1 Jn 1: 6-7, 1 Jn 5:16-17 & John 20:19-23**

Sola Fide & sin portends [hypothetically] that one merely goes to a “priest” [in NT-SELF] and admits their sins, and all is well and good. … Salvation “merited”.

This post Reformation invention denies Gods RIGHT to do it His WAY…The GOD-Life Test. And the Grace He OFFERS through proper use of HIS Seven Sacraments. Notably here Eucharist [HIMSELF] and Sacramental Confession. WHY do you suppose they are in the bible if God did not intend that THEY be USED?

Then there is the issue of the TEMPORAL PUNISHMENT that All sins accrue directly by GOD, who alone demand and monitors the repayment of same; as Souls MUST be Perfect in order to enter into the Beatific Vision.

Lev.22:2]” And when any one offers a sacrifice of peace offerings to the LORD, to fulfil a vow or as a freewill offering, from the herd or from the flock, to be accepted it must be perfect; there shall be no blemish in it”

Matt.5: 4]” You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect”

Jas.2: 14 – 20 “What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe – and shudder. Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren?

In the RCC, “WORKS” = Charity, and while we CANNOT work our way into heaven; we CAN”T get there without Charity. Salvation IS in a theological sense “Our Own Doing” in so far as eternity reflects OUR Personal life choices FED by God’s graces, either accepted or rejected. WE decide for ourselves where We will spend eternity; Jesus dare I say “only” affirms our decision, hence permitting US to use His GIFTS of mind, intellect and FREEWILL.

GBY, Patrick

 

[PJM]

#Q2 Purgatory:

1st 2 Mac. 12 40-45 “Then under the tunic of every one of the dead they found sacred tokens of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. And it became clear to all that this was why these men had fallen. So they all blessed the ways of the Lord, the righteous Judge, who reveals the things that are hidden; and they turned to prayer, beseeching that the sin which had been committed might be wholly blotted out. … He also took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably, taking account of the resurrection. For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead that they might be delivered from their sin”

THAT SIN OFFERING IS THE theological PRECUSOR FOR PRAYING FOR THE DEAD

Rom.6: 14-15 “For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace. What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!”
Paul speaks here speaks of OT ignorance verses NT Grace and possible RIGHT Understanding. Sins were NOW to actually be forgiven Jn 20:19-23, not merely covered over Lev. 5:16-18 …New times New expectations.

The RCC is Organic and Pragmatic

The last 2 verses in Jn 20 & 21 as you suspect confirms that NOT everything was intended [or even possible to put into one book as evidenced in the thousand + years Yahweh invested in teaching His CHOSEN People Exo. 6-7 [singular], which Jesus extends to “MY CHURCH” singular Mt 16:18; knowing full well that His One True Church & Faith was to be Organic and grow in WISDON, not only in size; fully guided by Him Jn 17: 18 & the HS Jn 14:26

I’ve read Plato & see what you’re speaking of. BUT my FRIEND, that is not the origin. The Doctrine of Purgatory which like topic #1 stems from a lack of understanding of God’s & sins very natures.

1 Tim 2: 3-4 “This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the TRUTH [singular per defined issue]

God makes this Possible by committing to OFFER every human Soul sufficient Grace that they CAN know Him. But grace can be refused, misdirected or only partially accepted,

END PT 2A

 

[PJM]

STRAT REPLY PT 2B

Purgatory exist because of God who desires that ALL humanity be saved,
BUT in Divine Justice conditions it on true and complete emulation of Himself [PERFECTION] which is only possible through Sacramental graces, charity & Indulgences [a separate topic]

Lev.22: 21 “And when any one offers a sacrifice of peace offerings to the LORD, to fulfill a vow or as a freewill offering, from the herd or from the flock, to be accepted it must be perfect; there shall be no blemish in it.

Rev. 21: 27 “But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor anyone who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”

Mt. 5: 26 truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.

Matt.5: 48 “You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

Heb. 2: 10 For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through suffering.

Because GOD is PERFECT, so too must EVERY Soul be either perfect upon death, or able to be perfected after death In order to enter into the Beatific Vision.

Then the misunderstanding of sins nature comes into play. GOD so detest our sins that HE applies a penalty for them, EVEN Sacramentally Confessed sand Forgiven sins. … Theologians have termed this: THE TEMPORAL PUNISHEMNT DUE TO SINS [can be GOOGLED] …

To attain Heaven a Soul must die without any unconfessed / unforgiven GODS WAY Mortal sins: 1: Jn 5:16-17 & Jn 20:1-23, and having repaid in FULL all of the TP our life’s sins have accrued. This DEBT can be paid for by charity, by suffering OFFERED UP, and through Indulgences. BUT as GOD applies the penalty, ONLY GOD knows to what degree our efforts [SOMETIMES wrongly understood as Catholic-WORKS] are accepted by HIM. So here is where the power & authority of the Key’s Mt 10: 1-2, Mt 16:18-19; Jn 20:19-23, Jn 17:17-20 each of which is to be taken literally. So the Church empowered & COMMANDED to Save as many Souls as is possible; following Her Mission, offers Sacramental Baptism, the Eucharist, Sacramental Confession & the Last Rites; & Indulgences, each of which is intended to is a direct, specific and signifient way to have a potential role is SAVING SOULS and perfecting them so they CAN go to heaven.

I pray my friend you find some of this useful. Please let ME know if you’d like to carry on a further discussion on any of this.

God Bless you, Patrick

 

[PJM]

REPLY tlanman87

REPLY to Q# [3] Mariology, veneration of saints, [idols]

This is perhaps the easiest of your issues to address:

Yahweh [GOD] Himself Commanded Moses to build for HIM Idols

Exod.25: 18, 20 And you shall make two cherubim of gold; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. [20] The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be

Num.21: 8-9 And the LORD said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live.” So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live.

So then the LESSON for us is that it is NOT the OBJECT THAT IS SINFUL; BUT the INTENDED USE OF THAT OBJECT THAT DETERMINES ITS MERIT.

Mary was [is] GOD”S choice out of literally BILLIONS of other women.

By FAR the most common Marian prayer is the Hail Mary; repeated 50 times on every Rosary. This prayer is solidly grounded in the Bible:

Hail Mary, [Lk. 1:28]
Full of Grace [Lk. 1:28]
The Lord is with thee [Lk 1:27]
Blessed are you among all women [Lk 1:42]
And Blessed in the fruit of your womb: Jesus [Lk. 1;42]
Holy Mary [Lk.1: 28]
Mother of God 1:35
Pray for us sinners [our catholic petition]
Now and at the hour of our death
Amen” [I BELIEVE!]

Romans 12: 2 “Do not be conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that you may prove what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect. “

Hebrews 5: 9 “and being made perfect he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him,”

Lk 1: 46-50 “And Mary said: My soul doth magnify the Lord. And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. Because he that is mighty, hath done great things to me; and holy is his name. And his mercy is from generation unto generations, to them that fear “[AWE of ] him”

Mary like most mothers ADDS to Her Son’s Glory, , not competing in any way with Him, but leading Souls to Him through Her intercessions.

Mary & the Saints are prayed “TO” BUT it is far more correct to understand that “Through” them is more accurate as ALL Catholic Prayers are intended to end with God.

This is a highly recommended practice not a Doctrine of the RCC because Mary & the Saints accept our petitions; then add their own on top of them and present them personally to our LORD on our behalf, making our prayers more efficaous.

I suggest you check this site out: https://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/marya1.htm

God Bless you
Patrick

 

[PJM]

REPLY Q #4 pt A

**REPLY tlanman87 **
Q #4: Are these taught by the Apostles in Sacred Tradition?

“The first prophecy referring to Mary is found in the very opening chapters of the Book of Genesis (3:15): “I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed; she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.” This rendering appears to differ in two respects from the original Hebrew text”

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15464b.htm

“Still the general Messianic promises made to the house of David cannot be frustrated: “The Lord Himself shall give you a sign. Behold a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and his name shall be called Emmanuel. He shall eat butter and honey, that he may know to refuse the evil and to choose the good. For before the child know to refuse the evil, and to choose the good, the land which thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of the face of her two kings.” Without answering a number of questions connected with the explanation of the prophecy, we must confine ourselves here to the bare proof that the virgin mentioned by the prophetis Mary the Mother of Christ. The argument is based on the premises that the prophet’s virgin is the mother of Emmanuel, and that Emmanuel is Christ. The relation of the virgin to Emmanuel is clearly expressed in the inspired words; the same indicate also the identity of Emmanuel with the Christ”

You’re question cannot be addressed without a full and right understanding of God’s intended transfer of Power of the KEY’S in Mt 16:18-19. & Jn 17:17-20, Mt 28:18-20

Jerusalem at the time of authorship of the NT was “Walled in city”. It was the NORM for such to have a king, who choose a Visar to handle ALL of the day-to-day decisions, answerable ONLY to the KING. This is precisely what is taking place with Jesus & Peter in Mt 16:15-19.

Jesus knew and expected that His Church would be Organic and pragmatic.

Matt.16 Verses 18 to 19 “And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build MY CHURCH [singular] and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give YOU [all of them implied] the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever YOU bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever YOU loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
Strong’s Hebrew Lexicon Search Results
Result of search for “bind”: [Hebrew]

247 ‘azar aw-zar’ a primitive root; to belt:–bind (compass) about, gird (up, with).

---

330 ‘etuwn ay-toon’ from an unused root (probably meaning to bind); properly, twisted (yarn), i.e. tapestry:–fine linen.

---

481 ‘alam aw-lam’ a primitive root; to tie fast; hence (of the mouth) to be tongue-tied:–bind, be dumb, put to silence.

 

[PJM]

Q #4 vpt B

To “Loose” {Hebrew]

6605 pathach paw-thakh’ a primitive root; to open wide (literally or figuratively); specifically, to loosen, begin, plough, carve:–appear, break forth, draw (out), let go free, (en-)grave(-n), loose (self), (be, be set) open(-ing), put off, ungird, unstop, have vent.

---

7368 rachaq raw-khak’ a primitive root; to widen (in any direction), i.e. (intransitively) recede or (transitively) remove (literally or figuratively, of place or relation):–(a-, be, cast, drive, get, go, keep (self), put, remove, be too, (wander), withdraw) far (away, off), loose, X refrain, very, (be) a good way (off).
So the Growth in understanding, the issuing of NEW Laws and teachings was fully expected and HS Guided, hence your thinking is a bit off on this issue. The authority of the KEY”S was recognized by the Early Fathers:

The Early Church Fathers understood from the beginning that Peter and his successors held a place of primacy in the Church.

Clement of Rome
Accept our counsel and you will have nothing to regret. . . . If anyone disobeys the things which have been said by him [Jesus] through us, let them know that they will involve themselves in no small danger. We, however, shall be innocent of this sin and will pray with entreaty and supplication that the Creator of all may keep unharmed the number of his elect (Letter to the Corinthians 58:2, 59:1[A.D. 95]).

Ignatius of Antioch
You [the See of Rome] have envied no one, but others have you taught. I desire only that what you have enjoined in your instructions may remain in force (Epistle to the Romans 3:1 [A.D. 110]).
Irenaeus
But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles. Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition (Against Heresies 3:3:2 [inter A.D. 180-190]).
Hope this clarifies the issue for you.

GB, Patrick

 

[Victorygirl]

I am currently in RCIA. I have never felt so close to God since I am studying to convert to Catholicism. I always believed in God/Jesus but lived exactly how I pleased with no strong moral convictions. I love the intellectual aspects of Catholicism and we are not discouraged from questioning. It might be till Easter but I thank God that I am now in conversion classes!

 

[Teek]

There are a number of things that I am investigating. However, the number one thing is that I don’t believe Catholicism affirms salvation as a free gift of God. I’ve had numerous folks on this forum try to explain it to me but I can’t get past the difference between meriting grace and earning grace. It seems that no matter how you slice it, if I have to merit something then I"m at least partially saying salvation is “of our own doing”.

How do you believe that a person is saved?

 

[Victorygirl]

Teek, I am in no way qualified to answer this as a newbie myself. I am posting a link to a good explanation. In other words, the Catholics believe you just cannot believe in Christ and then go on to do nasty things and be in rebellion against God. You have to believe and then practice to the best of your ability. Go forth and sin no more so to speak.

Assurance of Salvation? | Catholic Answers Tract

 

[lanman87]

How do you believe that a person is saved?

Does faith change a person? Apologetics

I’m know theologian but I must say after spending 5 months on this board I’m getting better at it.

However, the Evangelical (I don’t like using the word Protestant because I don’t know of anyone in my circle of believers protesting the the Roman Catholic Church) position is that salvation is a three fold action. 1st is the conversion, that is placing faith in Christ. This is when we are adopted and filled with the Holy Spirit as opposed to baptism which is what I understand the RC…

 

[Debbie_Kono]

God bless you Victorygirl…and welcome, welcome Home. Yes, the Truth is so very satisfying.

 

[Teek]

From your above post…

“1st is the conversion, that is placing faith in Christ. This is when we are adopted and filled with the Holy Spirit as opposed to baptism which is what I understand the RCC to believe. This conversion supernaturally changes our heart. We are made new creations in Christ. It is because of our faith that we receive the gift of eternal life.”

Adding this to your previous post…

“It seems that no matter how you slice it, if I have to merit something then I"m at least partially saying salvation is “of our own doing”.”
…
In your first quote, you maintain that we first have to put our faith in God. Is that not also at least partially saying that Salvation is of our own doing? If you don’t? No Salvation, right?

1. God gave us free will so that we can freely choose Him. Or not. But He respects that choice. Choosing does not give you the power to save yourself. He does all the saving. He does it on an invitation and a response to that invitation. All Christians believe that this accepting of Christ as our Lord and Savior is necessary for redemption. None maintain that the acceptance itself has the power to save. God alone can do that. In Catholicism, the accepting itself also does not effect Salvation: it is received in the outpouring of the Holy Spirit in Baptism—an act of Jesus Christ through His Body the Church. He acts, and you are then saved. If you hold that placing faith in Christ is what causes you to be filled with the Holy Spirit, then your act effects your Salvation. In Catholicism, we believe that our salvation is much more than that. God has made our freewill an element of our salvation by His own generosity—He didn’t have to. And it is His act alone that saves us.
2. The Church teaches that the desire that is in a person’s heart for the Lord is also a gift from the Lord. He planted that desire and purpose in every human heart. Then His grace moves us toward Him. The grace of moving toward Him is His gift, and it merits salvation, so to speak. It is not by our merits or actions but by the Holy Spirit that we move to accepting. So the merit we have itself was His gift, and was not earned, but it is what merits salvation.

I might be oversimplifying to the point of error in my next statement: if so, then all ye forum posters of brutal honesty please descend upon me!!! For me, it is that God’s generous love is what calls us, moves us, and transforms us. If our contribution was not required it would be an automatic, not personal, conversion. The only single thing that we truly contribute is our assent to His invitation and His promises. Not because it is necessary that we do, He could save every single one if us without it if He chose, but He does not, so that we might have the dignity of a free response to love Him. He wanted Sons and Daughters, not slaves. Not even slaves to love.

 

[lanman87]

In your first quote, you maintain that we first have to put our faith in God. Is that not also at least partially saying that Salvation is of our own doing? If you don’t? No Salvation, right?

I believe “of our own doing” means to earn or merit the gifts of God. It is like saying I earned the playstation that was under the Christmas tree because I unwrapped the box. Did I do something to be able to “get the playstation”, yes. Did I earn or merit the playstation. No. It was a gift.

The only condition I can find in the bible to accept the Gifts of God is faith. Which, by my definition is, “surrendering myself Christ”. That surrendering myself to Christ will produce works of faith that will be evident in my life. Those works of faith include repentance, obedience, giving, worship, helping the poor and needy, and so on. If I don’t display a change in my life that compels me to do those things then I haven’t been converted.