Why are you not Catholic?

[crai7]

crai? could you please answer the above question?

Yes sure, see below. But to summarise, there was a schism around a 1000 AD, where the Byzantine Church and the RCC had grown apart to such an extent that the Pope excommunicated them. Even though the excommunication was lifted in the 1960s (I saw a photo the other day, can’t remember where) the Orthodox still DO NOT recognise the authority of the Pope.

people.opposingviews.com/orthodox-catholics-follow-pope-8765.html

 

[crai7]

I definitely understand the unwelcoming part. When I walked into the local Catholic church, not even the ushers greeted me. All I got was you are sitting in my seat from one (I do understand the seat thing as my grandfather was captain of the ushers for many years and an usher a total of 25 years). However, no one said hey, how are you, my name is so and so. Nothing. I generally am seen as a very approachable person.

However, in the many non-Catholic churches (not all) that I have been to, there is someone meeting you at the door to greet you and if not, they come to you at your seat or pew to say hello, introduce themselves and welcome you to the church. When I was younger, it wouldn’t have bothered me near as much, but now that I am older and with a family, friendliness on the part of other people is appreciated. Especially, when you may be new to the church and nervous someone coming to say hi to you is welcomed. When you are new you are generally not the one that should be breaking the ice and to expect a new person to do that just seems wrong to me and extremely off-putting.

I’m the opposite. I don’t like the welcoming process in many churches, where they feel a need to point out the new visitors during service in some way or the other, and dispatch someone to talk to you. I prefer quiet reverence and predictable process - that way you don’t need a guide, you just follow the usual steps.

We tried a new independent church a few years ago, within a few minutes my wife and I were SURROUNDED - by what I assume was the designated welcoming committee, and we were invited to dinner. We went to dinner, but it was uncomfortable - you sense you are under a microscope, so we never went back.

 

[PRmerger]

Yes sure, see below. But to summarise, there was a schism around a 1000 AD, where the Byzantine Church and the RCC had grown apart to such an extent that the Pope excommunicated them. Even though the excommunication was lifted in the 1960s (I saw a photo the other day, can’t remember where) the Orthodox still DO NOT recognise the authority of the Pope.

people.opposingviews.com/orthodox-catholics-follow-pope-8765.html

Crai, I’m glad you’re here because you’re going to get a lot of correction on the misinformation you’ve been asserting here.

You stated: “Eastern Rite churches don’t even report to the Pope or Vatican”

and when asked to support your claim you offered a post about the Orthodox Church.

They are not the same thing, crai.

The Eastern rite churches are Catholic. And, as such, they do “report to the Pope or Vatican”.

Orthodox Churches are NOT Catholic.

 

[Micosil]

Orthodox Churches are NOT Catholic.

And this is where many Orthodox will try to point out that the Eastern Orthodox Church is often called the Orthodox Catholic Church, so in that sense they are “Catholic” – what must be, thus, stressed here, is communion with the bishop of Rome, and the Holy See.

 

[steve_b]

I definitely understand the unwelcoming part. When I walked into the local Catholic church, not even the ushers greeted me. All I got was you are sitting in my seat from one (I do understand the seat thing as my grandfather was captain of the ushers for many years and an usher a total of 25 years). However, no one said hey, how are you, my name is so and so. Nothing. I generally am seen as a very approachable person.

However, in the many non-Catholic churches (not all) that I have been to, there is someone meeting you at the door to greet you and if not, they come to you at your seat or pew to say hello, introduce themselves and welcome you to the church. When I was younger, it wouldn’t have bothered me near as much, but now that I am older and with a family, friendliness on the part of other people is appreciated. Especially, when you may be new to the church and nervous someone coming to say hi to you is welcomed. When you are new you are generally not the one that should be breaking the ice and to expect a new person to do that just seems wrong to me and extremely off-putting.

Everyone should be welcoming. We all agree on that …I hope .

 

[steve_b]

I used to be Catholic as my whole family is Catholic. So I was raised Catholic and did the sacraments because it was what my family wanted me to do. My heart was never really in it though. In my teens I rebelled and stopped going to mass. Then in my mid-thirties I met my wife who was non-denominational (she too at one time was Catholic) and she showed me the love of Christ through her. I also learned that Jesus can be accessed and visited at anytime and where ever you are. That a building of brick and mortar is not needed.

I still had issues though with different churches and bounced around 5+ years. I even went back to mass at the local Catholic Church for a time. However, me going back to the Catholic church didn’t last long as so many rules of the Catholic Church just do not line up with scripture and is the main reason why I am no longer Catholic.

An example would be marriage. No where in the Bible does it say that you must be married by a Catholic priest in order to be considered married by God. No where in the Bible does it say to betray your wife by getting a radical sanation (my wife would not get married by a Catholic priest as she believes that we are already married and I fully agree with her that we do not need to be married once again to have a valid marriage in the eyes of God) with or without her knowledge as I was told to do by Catholics.

Almost a year ago I went to a Lutheran service for the first time and I knew that I had found my church, since then my two children were baptized Lutheran and my wife and I have become Lutherans.

Your story reminds me of a Q / A that I came accross

"Full Question

If a Catholic converts to another religion, will he attain heaven? The debate in our family is that the Lord will still accept the fact that he is practicing a religion even though he converted. My answer to them is that he will not attain heaven, although how can I judge?

Answer

Ultimately, you cannot judge since you do not know for certain the state of the person’s conscience. This does not mean, however, that you cannot or should not warn the individual against the gravely dangerous course of action he is undertaking.

The First Vatican Council pointed out that in addition to intellectual arguments for the truth of the Catholic faith, God “confirms by his grace those whom he has translated into his admirable light *, so that they may persevere in this light, not abandoning them unless he is first abandoned” *(Decree on the Catholic Faith, Vat I, session3 Ch 3 v 14)**http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Councils/ecum20.htm.

Those who have embraced the Catholic faith are thus in a special position because of the extra grace they are given in maintaining their faith.
The situation of those who, by the heavenly gift of faith, have embraced the Catholic truth is by no means the same as that of those who, led by human opinions, follow a false religion; for those who have accepted the faith under the guidance of the Church can never have any just cause for changing this faith or for calling it into question. (Decree on the Catholic Faith, Vat I, session3 Ch 3 v 15)http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Councils/ecum20.htm

The bottom line is that for one who has embraced the Catholic faith and who has not lost the use of reason, God will always provide the grace and evidence necessary maintain his adherence to the Catholic faith.

If such a person does not maintain this adherence then either (a) he never embraced the Catholic faith, (b) he has since lost the use of reason (either generally or in relation to this subject), or (c) he abandoned the faith through his own fault, in which case he will bear the eternal consequence of doing so.

Which of these is the case in a particular instance is something that we in this life are unable to determine due to our inability to read consciences."

From:
http://www.catholic.com/quickquestio…still-be-saved

 

[glad2bhome]

Your story reminds me of a Q / A that I came accross

"Full Question

If a Catholic converts to another religion, will he attain heaven? The debate in our family is that the Lord will still accept the fact that he is practicing a religion even though he converted. My answer to them is that he will not attain heaven, although how can I judge?

Answer

Ultimately, you cannot judge since you do not know for certain the state of the person’s conscience. This does not mean, however, that you cannot or should not warn the individual against the gravely dangerous course of action he is undertaking.

The First Vatican Council pointed out that in addition to intellectual arguments for the truth of the Catholic faith, God “confirms by his grace those whom he has translated into his admirable light *, so that they may persevere in this light, not abandoning them unless he is first abandoned” *(Decree on the Catholic Faith, Vat I, session3 Ch 3 v 14)**http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Councils/ecum20.htm.

Those who have embraced the Catholic faith are thus in a special position because of the extra grace they are given in maintaining their faith.
The situation of those who, by the heavenly gift of faith, have embraced the Catholic truth is by no means the same as that of those who, led by human opinions, follow a false religion; for those who have accepted the faith under the guidance of the Church can never have any just cause for changing this faith or for calling it into question. (Decree on the Catholic Faith, Vat I, session3 Ch 3 v 15)http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Councils/ecum20.htm

The bottom line is that for one who has embraced the Catholic faith and who has not lost the use of reason, God will always provide the grace and evidence necessary maintain his adherence to the Catholic faith.

If such a person does not maintain this adherence then either (a) he never embraced the Catholic faith, (b) he has since lost the use of reason (either generally or in relation to this subject), or (c) he abandoned the faith through his own fault, in which case he will bear the eternal consequence of doing so.

Which of these is the case in a particular instance is something that we in this life are unable to determine due to our inability to read consciences."

From:
http://www.catholic.com/quickquestio…still-be-saved

In summary, and in simple terms, is this saying that if the Catholic Church is not feeding your soul and drawing you closer to Christ, and you leave for another Christian faith that does, you’re somehow excluded from heaven?

That’s how I’m reading the passage. It reminds me of the fear I remember feeling in Catholic high school when one of our teachers explained in the 1970’s, once a Catholic, always a Catholic, and if you leave you would be rejecting Jesus. That’s stuck with me through years of struggle. Do I stay out of fear? This has been a large part of my current reflection.

 

[PRmerger]

In summary, and in simple terms, is this saying that if the Catholic Church is not feeding your soul and drawing you closer to Christ, and you leave for another Christian faith that does, you’re somehow excluded from heaven?

That’s how I’m reading the passage. It reminds me of the fear I remember feeling in Catholic high school when one of our teachers explained in the 1970’s, once a Catholic, always a Catholic, and if you leave you would be rejecting Jesus. That’s stuck with me through years of struggle. Do I stay out of fear? This has been a large part of my current reflection.

I think you should re-read the passage cited, glad.

Your summary above does not represent a correct explication.

A better summary is in the last sentence of the passage cited: “Which of these is the case in a particular instance is something that we in this life are unable to determine due to our inability to read consciences.”

IOW: we are unable to determine whether you’re excluded from heaven or not.

But it’s a serious thing indeed to leave the CC.

 

[PRmerger]

In summary, and in simple terms, is this saying that if the Catholic Church is not feeding your soul and drawing you closer to Christ, and you leave for another Christian faith that does, you’re somehow excluded from heaven?

That’s how I’m reading the passage. It reminds me of the fear I remember feeling in Catholic high school when one of our teachers explained in the 1970’s, once a Catholic, always a Catholic, and if you leave you would be rejecting Jesus. That’s stuck with me through years of struggle. Do I stay out of fear? This has been a large part of my current reflection.

What would be your answer to a baptized person who leaves Christianity because she feels that the Christian faith is not feeding her soul? She asks, “Am I excluded from heaven because I left Christ for a religion that feeds and nourishes my soul better than Christianity?”

What would you say to her?

 

[rcwitness]

Some thoughts on where this thread has been going…

It’s true that hospitality should be offered to one another in the Church, and especially for visitors compelled by God to learn about the faith and worship of Catholic Christians!

While the reverence for Mass time must be taken into consideration, it shouldn’t be an excuse to not show an interest in others by any means. Neither should a genuine visitor be quick to judge the intentions and character of members who are not as outgoing as they would like them to be. It is not a cult of personality.

Something lacking in many of us Christians is the willingness to suffer. If we see there is a lack of charity by little hospitality shown to others then accept it as a cross which through suffering and kindness you will make a difference in the way God wills.

There is only one body and blood of the Lord whom He Himself gave to the Church. It is the one loaf we all partake of. This is the table which we come to. These are the members who we must fellowship with. We cannot say, “oh, these ones aren’t suitable for me. I will go there, where they are easier to talk to. Or I will start a new group of people I prefer.”

It’s true that non-Catholic Christians are accepted into the Church in a true way. It is not a perfect union, but there is sufficient faith which constitutes real brotherhood. And so there is salvation because there is faith which produces change in men towards God!

We have a faith which contains the fullness of Christ in Teaching and Sacrament! When a genuine non-Catholic Christian is confronted with this, there usually always are some difficult challenges which accompany it! One challenge might be noticing weeds among the wheat. One might be some articles of the faith which we don’t understand, or don’t agree with. To me, it should be funny to not have these challenges in the Church of God which is within the world!

Be patient… be willing… believe all things… endure hardships which build up the house of God, so that it is a great testimony to the love of Christ in this sometimes ugly world.

I know it takes some time and effort to grow into a parish. I think if we look at our own self before Christ, the measure, we can be a light to those who are genuine but maybe choked out by the weeds in the community.

Do you see? We have weeds!!! Can you be wheat despite the weeds???

 

[glad2bhome]

What would be your answer to a baptized person who leaves Christianity because she feels that the Christian faith is not feeding her soul? She asks, “Am I excluded from heaven because I left Christ for a religion that feeds and nourishes my soul better than Christianity?”

What would you say to her?

She would be leaving Christ, as she is leaving Christianity as a whole.

 

[PRmerger]

She would be leaving Christ, as she is leaving Christianity as a whole.

Understood.

But she doesn’t feel nourished with Christianity.

And isn’t that your point: go where you are nourished?

 

[PRmerger]

She would be leaving Christ, as she is leaving Christianity as a whole.

And what happens when someone leaves Christ? Is she condemned? Should she stay in Christianity out of fear?

 

[glad2bhome]

And what happens when someone leaves Christ? Is she condemned? Should she stay in Christianity out of fear?

No, I don’t see it as the same. If she’s lost her faith in Christ, then leaving would bring no fear.

For myself, who desires to continue and grow in my relationship with Christ, I feel there is a sense of condemnation if I move to another Christ based faith (Lutheran for example). Shouldn’t the bigger focus be on the fact that in an effort to grow closer to Christ, I am seeking a place of worship. Are we not all Christian brothers and sisters who are seeking the same in the end? Is it not a matter of earthly restraints and arguments over doctrine? In the end though, isn’t Christ the reason we are all here and in some form of fellowship?

As you can see, I am struggling and not taking my faith journey lightly.

 

[rcwitness]

Did Christ say, “Do not uproot the weeds… just go where there are less weeds.”???

Does He really will that we go to the place with the best Christians???

I, personally, do not believe He does.

 

[Contarini]

No, I don’t see it as the same. If she’s lost her faith in Christ, then leaving would bring no fear.

For myself, who desires to continue and grow in my relationship with Christ, I feel there is a sense of condemnation if I move to another Christ based faith (Lutheran for example). Shouldn’t the bigger focus be on the fact that in an effort to grow closer to Christ, I am seeking a place of worship. Are we not all Christian brothers and sisters who are seeking the same in the end? Is it not a matter of earthly restraints and arguments over doctrine? In the end though, isn’t Christ the reason we are all here and in some form of fellowship?

As you can see, I am struggling and not taking my faith journey lightly.

You’re assuming, I think, that the Christian faith is primarily about you “growing closer to Christ” as an individual.

I think that’s a mistaken assumption.

Edwin

 

[glad2bhome]

You’re assuming, I think, that the Christian faith is primarily about you “growing closer to Christ” as an individual.

I think that’s a mistaken assumption.

Edwin

Would you expand upon that thought Edwin. I’m finding myself feeling more distant from my faith, and therefore from Christ, in my current church. How else can I see it other than a personal journey.

 

[steve_b]

In summary, and in simple terms, is this saying that if the Catholic Church is not feeding your soul and drawing you closer to Christ, and you leave for another Christian faith that does, you’re somehow excluded from heaven? That’s how I’m reading the passage.

Of course the Catholic Church feeds our soul. We don’t just draw close to Christ in the Catholic Church we literally take Jesus into ourselves at ever mass, body blood soul and divinity in the Eucharist.

The true food for the soul is the Eucharist (the bread of life). NOTHING else takes that place this side of heaven. That happens at EVERY mass. Every Catholic knows that. That’s why no Catholic would ever say they are not fed in the Catholic Church. As you will see in the passage that follows, the only ones who leave are the ones who don’t have faith.

Jn 6: 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that a man may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread] which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh.”
52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”] 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; 54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever.” 59 This he said in the synagogue, as he taught at Caper′na-um. 60 Many of his disciples, when they heard it, said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” 61 But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples murmured at it, said to them, “Do you take offense at this? 62 Then what if you were to see the Son of man ascending where he was before?] 63 It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64 But there are some of you that do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the first who those were that did not believe, and who it was that should betray him. 65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” 66 After this many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him. 67 Jesus said to the twelve, “Will you also go away?” 68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life; 69 and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.”
g:

It reminds me of the fear I remember feeling in Catholic high school when one of our teachers explained in the 1970’s, once a Catholic, always a Catholic, and if you leave you would be rejecting Jesus. That’s stuck with me through years of struggle. Do I stay out of fear? This has been a large part of my current reflection.

Your teacher was right. One who leaves the Catholic Church leaves Jesus just as sure as His disciples left Jesus in Jn 6:66. The Eucharist really is Jesus, body blood soul and divinity . And IMV the scariest passage in all of scripture is, they left Him, and Jesus didn’t go after them. Jesus knew, they had no faith. They didn’t believe.

As an aside, Re: those who left

Was Jesus not a good enough teacher, that’s why they left because they were confused? Or was Jesus not inspirational enough, didn’t fire them up in the way He spoke and taught? The day before this event in Jn 6, Jesus performed a miracle, He fed the 5000 with a few fish and loaves of bread. Now many of those 5000 followed Jesus the next day to Caper’na-um. Jesus then gave them the bread of life discourse, the real food. So they can be fed for heaven. And what did Jesus say if one doesn’t eat this bread and drink this blood? They have no life in them.

Do you see why your teacher said what he said to you back in highschool? He was right.
Here’s something else to look at #34 . Open up all the internal links. They’re all a quick read. It will show you specifically in scripture and in Tradition why leaving the Catholic Church is disasterous to your soul.

But then Jesus already laid it out in the bread of life discourse.

 

[glad2bhome]

Of course the Catholic Church feeds our soul. We don’t just draw close to Christ in the Catholic Church we literally take Jesus into ourselves at ever mass, body blood soul and divinity in the Eucharist.

The true food for the soul is the Eucharist (the bread of life). NOTHING else takes that place this side of heaven. That happens at EVERY mass. Every Catholic knows that. That’s why no Catholic would ever say they are not fed in the Catholic Church. As you will see in the passage that follows, the only ones who leave are the ones who don’t have faith.

Jn 6: 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that a man may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread] which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh.”
52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”] 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; 54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever.” 59 This he said in the synagogue, as he taught at Caper′na-um. 60 Many of his disciples, when they heard it, said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” 61 But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples murmured at it, said to them, “Do you take offense at this? 62 Then what if you were to see the Son of man ascending where he was before?] 63 It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64 But there are some of you that do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the first who those were that did not believe, and who it was that should betray him. 65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” 66 After this many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him. 67 Jesus said to the twelve, “Will you also go away?” 68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life; 69 and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.”

Your teacher was right. One who leaves the Catholic Church leaves Jesus just as sure as His disciples left Jesus in Jn 6:66. The Eucharist really is Jesus, body blood soul and divinity . And IMV the scariest passage in all of scripture is, they left Him, and Jesus didn’t go after them. Jesus knew, they had no faith. They didn’t believe.

As an aside, Re: those who left

Was Jesus not a good enough teacher, that’s why they left because they were confused? Or was Jesus not inspirational enough, didn’t fire them up in the way He spoke and taught? The day before this event in Jn 6, Jesus performed a miracle, He fed the 5000 with a few fish and loaves of bread. Now many of those 5000 followed Jesus the next day to Caper’na-um. Jesus then gave them the bread of life discourse, the real food. So they can be fed for heaven. And what did Jesus say if one doesn’t eat this bread and drink this blood? They have no life in them.

Do you see why your teacher said what he said to you back in highschool? He was right.
Here’s something else to look at #34 . Open up all the internal links. They’re all a quick read. It will show you specifically in scripture and in Tradition why leaving the Catholic Church is disasterous to your soul.

But then Jesus already laid it out in the bread of life discourse.

Thank you for you response. I don’t see myself as without faith in Christ or leaving Him in any way. I see my struggle with the Catholic Church. I would never abandon Christianity in itself.

 

[Tomdstone]

Jn 6: 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that a man may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread] which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh.”
52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”] 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; 54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever.” 59 This he said in the synagogue, as he taught at Caper′na-um. 60 Many of his disciples, when they heard it, said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” 61 But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples murmured at it, said to them, “Do you take offense at this? 62 Then what if you were to see the Son of man ascending where he was before?] 63 It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64 But there are some of you that do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the first who those were that did not believe, and who it was that should betray him. 65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” 66 After this many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him. 67 Jesus said to the twelve, “Will you also go away?” 68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life; 69 and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.”

Does this passage appear only in the gospel of John? Why doesn’t it appear in any of the other three gospels?