Why aren't there on demand priestly miracles?

[GailMac]

Dear OneTime,

It seems your question has shifted from wondering about actual miracles and requiring that every priest raise the dead before you’ll believe in the mystery of the Priesthood of Christ to where does the Church get the authority to Ordain and where does Ordination come from. Both of these questions are abundantly answered in the Cathlolic Answers tracts and forums, and if you take the time to research them, you will find sufficient answer.

There really isn’t much I or anyone else can say to “make” you believe - the Church never presses a person to believe - it is a matter of choice - the person CHOOSES to believe. I feel certain if you give the above tracts, etc. a fair scrutiny, you will come to a place where God will ask you to make a choice. Perhaps you hestitate in this regard.

On the simplier side, as for the Priesthood of Christ, since there was a Priesthood under the Old Testament in Isreal from time immemorial, why do you doubt that there would be a Priesthood under the New Testament?

It is the New that fulfills the Old and the Old pre-figures the New. All things are one in Him and He is Head over all, the Old and the New. (oooops - by mentioning His Kingship, have I given you room to argue against St. Peter and his successors? I hope not.)

Peace,

Gail

 

[JRKH]

I’ve posted this question a few times in related posts…it is always ignored. Is it too tough a question?

The RCC claims that priests have the power to forgive sins from apostolic succession.

The RCC claims that the apostles went out and forgave the sins of people. The scripture isn’t exactly crystal clear, but that is what they believe.

We know from scripture, that the apostles were ordered by Jesus to cleanse the lepers and raise the dead. ( perform miracles in his name)

Why then does the Church claim that it’s priests have the power through apostolic succession to forgive the sins of men…but these same priests do not have the power to raise the dead or cleanse the lepers, which would also be through apostolic succession?

Same question for transubstantiation. Priests have the miraculous ability to turn bread into Jesus whenever they want…but again, they don’t have the power to raise the dead or cleanse lepers whenever they want.

Any answer…anyone?

I’ll try not to miss the spirit of your post OTP

Actually I do understand your question. Been there myself and wish it were so for then my Lady would be miraculously cured of Alzhiemers Disease.

I don’t think that I will try to answer specifics in your post but rather address myself to the underlying question which seems to be why do we not see the sorts of miracles that Jesus and the Apostles are reported to have performed.

It seems to me that the answer lies in having a certain kind of faith, or more precisely, a trust in our faith. Many times when Jesus healed someone he would comment on their faith. (“Your faith has saved you”, or words to that effect). He also promised that if we have faith we could do the things that he did and more. So the question becomes, do we have the right kind of faith, or is our faith strong enough to overcome our inherant doubts.

I have a hard time explaining it but think about it and let me know what you think.

Peace
James

 

[mercygate]

I’ll try not to miss the spirit of your post OTP

Actually I do understand your question. Been there myself and wish it were so for then my Lady would be miraculously cured of Alzhiemers Disease.

I don’t think that I will try to answer specifics in your post but rather address myself to the underlying question which seems to be why do we not see the sorts of miracles that Jesus and the Apostles are reported to have performed.

It seems to me that the answer lies in having a certain kind of faith, or more precisely, a trust in our faith. Many times when Jesus healed someone he would comment on their faith. (“Your faith has saved you”, or words to that effect). He also promised that if we have faith we could do the things that he did and more. So the question becomes, do we have the right kind of faith, or is our faith strong enough to overcome our inherant doubts.

I have a hard time explaining it but think about it and let me know what you think.

Peace
James

One pont your post raises is that even many of those who received – or witnessed – miracles at the hand of Our Lord Himself did not believe. Judas fell away. The Pharisees and Scribes said He worked by demons.

 

[onetimeposter]

There are several places from which this power derives – and don’t forget, a priest never confects the Eucharist WTIHOUT the power of God acting through him.

1. We know that the power to “do this” had to last until the end of time because in John 6, the Lord says we must “eat my flesh” in order to have life.

But where does that say…" you will have the power to summon the Holy Spirit and turn ordinary bread into my flesh’ Only ordained Catholic priests will possess this ability’

Isn’t the Church reading allot into this?

 

[mercygate]

But where does that say…" you will have the power to summon the Holy Spirit and turn ordinary bread into my flesh’ Only ordained Catholic priests will possess this ability’

Isn’t the Church reading allot into this?

Why do you think that it is “reading a lot into” things to understand that the Church will be able to do what Our Lord commands it to do?

 

[hawkeye]

Yet, the Church claims that priests have the power, through the Holy Spirit, to turn bread into Christ’ flesh…every time.

I think the power is in the Sacrament and not so much the priest, the priest is the channel for the Sacrament whether we think he’s worthy or not.

And Transubstantiation still takes place even if a priest doesn’t believe it, look at Lanciano.

 

[mercygate]

I think the power is in the Sacrament and not so much the priest, the priest is the channel for the Sacrament whether we think he’s worthy or not.

And Transubstantiation still takes place even if a priest doesn’t believe it, look at Lanciano.

Just seeking clarity: the power is in the Sacrament of Holy Orders to confect the Eucharist.

 

[JRKH]

I’ll try not to miss the spirit of your post OTP

Actually I do understand your question. Been there myself and wish it were so for then my Lady would be miraculously cured of Alzhiemers Disease.

I don’t think that I will try to answer specifics in your post but rather address myself to the underlying question which seems to be why do we not see the sorts of miracles that Jesus and the Apostles are reported to have performed.

It seems to me that the answer lies in having a certain kind of faith, or more precisely, a trust in our faith. Many times when Jesus healed someone he would comment on their faith. (“Your faith has saved you”, or words to that effect). He also promised that if we have faith we could do the things that he did and more. So the question becomes, do we have the right kind of faith, or is our faith strong enough to overcome our inherant doubts.

I have a hard time explaining it but think about it and let me know what you think.

Peace
James

I just wanted to add to the above that I take Jesus at His word regarding having faith and moving mountains.
Having such a faith would certainly mean not seeking such a power.
It seems to me that The Church is not the only one that must face this sort of question. I know of no denomination that can provide consistant “miracles on demand” of the cleansing lepers and raising dead type.

So If Jesus promises that such works are possible for anyone with faith the size of a mustrd seed, why don’t we see “Miracles on Demand” from any of the faith systems, Not Catholic, Not Lutheren, Not Baptist, Not Evangelical, Not…fill in the blank.
I guess we all must say that our faith is lacking.

 

[richardwy]

I suggest: The Catechism of the Catholic Church. Try reading it through so that you will know what the Church teaches

This is so good! I’m on my 2nd Catechism. The other fell to pieces.

I was in RCIA when I began reading. Found tons I did not know. I converted from protestantism. Some if not much of what we criticized Catholics was missing from the Catechism.

On a side note, if someone has an anti-Catholic bee in the bonnet, they will find enough in the Catechism for their purposes.

However, by delving into the Catechism, they would acquire a sounder understanding of the faith.

 

[onetimeposter]

I have the opposite experience. The more I learn, the more skeptical I become.

 

[PBP]

I have the opposite experience. The more I learn, the more skeptical I become.

Read Matthew 13: 18-23
We must be grounded in truth to understand. We have a natural life and a supernatural life. We cannot rely on our senses of our natural life.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Has anyone see what’s going on with the Florida revival… the deaf hear, the blind see (one guy through a glass eye!), and 31 people raised from the dead so far.

I see miracles all the time occuring in my church. It’s still around.

Yes I have heard of Todd Bentley. He is in all of the newspapers here in Florida and most are warning others to stay away from him. He is a Canadian who flew south to make money doing the faith-healing revival scam and is being sued left and right for fraud and for physically harming people. The man is like a tattooed circus clown. He tackled a minister and knocked his teeth out. He pushes little old ladies off the stage on their butts. Not a class act. He has a daily budget of $32,000 to pay for all his TV and media hype and security guards.
A FALSE HEALING REVIVAL?? -Florida--Andrew Strom.:

last.fm/user/Arwen4CJ/journal/2008/07/06/220o6k_todd_bentley_and_florida_%22outpouring%22_-part_7-_research_2

Todd Bentley actually has deep roots in the Prophetic movement, and **he is one of the very few ministers that I have ever felt I had to publicly warn people about by name. **-His ministry is that bad.
False “angel” encounters of the weirdest kind, gold dust, guided visualizations of the “Third Heaven” that are straight out of the New Age, etc. And yet there is a “power” with it that makes it all the more dangerous.

Here is how Charisma describes his Florida meetings- "His methods are far from polished. When he prayed for people in Lakeland, he usually began by laying his hand on their heads and
then yelling, “Bam!”
Often the people fell backward to the floor. After one elderly woman fell, Bentley told the audience: “She doesn’t know why she fell down.” The woman then laughed and said to him in the microphone:
“Because you pushed me!” He prayed for her three more times that night, and she said she could hear better…

Most all of the Protestant denominations in the area are upset he is stealing so many people from their own ministry and siphoning off large amounts of cash and are making statements in the newspapers warning everyone about this man. Ironically they are telling everyone “not everyone who calls me Lord Lord will enter heaven” (which is itself ironic to me coming from a Protestant).

But one thing is clear - the man is an utter fraud who is playing on the desperation of terminally ill people and the easily impressionable for profit. His circus is pulling in millions of dollars a year.



James

 

[onetimeposter]

I feel sorry for anyone who is so desperate, as to follow a charismatic TV faith healer…especially of the likes of this guy.

 

[fbl9]

hi there onetime…why the demand for miracles?since you already claim to be christian what use of miracles do you have?..Even Christ himself has said that He performed miracles so that people may believe in Him.

 

[onetimeposter]

Have you even read my original post?

It is the responses that are so focused on the miracles…not I.

A few people have responded excellently, having clearly read my question and have replied with a contextual response.

I have received a satisfactory response to my question.

 

[fbl9]

Ask Jesus, he instructed his apostles to raise the dead.

I actually think that I have stumbled upon a question that may have some very difficult answers…no one has even attempted to answer it.

To dismiss my question outright, only emboldens my belief that perhaps there is a contradiction at play.

Priests can do some miracles the apostles could do, but not the others.

WHY?

which miracles can priests perform,that the apostles also could do?you already have agreed about absolution and retaintion.what else.

 

[fbl9]

Ok, thanks for the effort in the well detailed responses. It’s a fairly reasonable explanation, as provided by more than one poster.

This isn’t a vexing issue for me anymore.

Thanks

this is the post i misread,sorry i understood it as this issue still was an issue.may we ask what your conclusion is on this subject. if not cool

 

[JRKH]

I have the opposite experience. The more I learn, the more skeptical I become.

This certainly has mainly to do with the sum of your experience and your particular point of view.
When one looks at the number of different faith communities out there and and the number of variations in doctrines and practices that are all based on “The Bible” it becomes quite obvious that “The Bible” is not a very clear blueprint. Anyone can read into The Bible what they wish.
I don’t say this to belittle you OTP, I’ve been down a similar road. The main thing is to try and keep an open mind. Sometimes we must strip away everything that is not absolutely necessary in order to gain that insight that allows us to put all the rest in perspective.
For me it involved, not only leaving The Church, but also questioning the Bible itself. By the time I was able to strip off all the contradictory, confusing, items I found myself left with the Gospels. I then consentrated on Christ’s ministry.
To make a long story short, I found the Law of Love, Love Of God, Love of neighbor, Blessed are the Peacemakers, This command I give you that you Love one another as I have Loved you, Forgive, etc. Unless a teaching or practice can be fitted into this ultimate Law of Love, I will question it.

Once I found this, I could understand all the other things in context.
this is partly why I use the signature I do. God Is - All the Rest is Details.

Peace
James

 

[Layman]

An open mind is like a sewer: anything can run into it.

Everyone’s an intellectual now, a priest unto himself. How peculiar, then, that bars, pharmacies, brothels and doctor’s surgeries are doing a roaring trade.

An illiterate man is in a room with a Bible. How then can he be saved?

“Why aren’t there on-demand priestly miracles?”

A clue:

“If you are the Son of God, come down from the cross!”

 

[onetimeposter]

An open mind is like a sewer: anything can run into it.

Everyone’s an intellectual now, a priest unto himself. How peculiar, then, that bars, pharmacies, brothels and doctor’s surgeries are doing a roaring trade.

An illiterate man is in a room with a Bible. How then can he be saved?

“Why aren’t there on-demand priestly miracles?”

A clue:

“If you are the Son of God, come down from the cross!”

You are yet another poster who has taken one tiny snip from my lengthy OP and are presenting my OP as being solely interested in priestly miracles.

Go back and read my OP, the question actually has very little to do with miracles, but everything to do with Church authority and apostolic succession.

In any event, your response is not in the least helpful, as it does not address the question in my OP.