Why bother if participation doesnt matter

  • Thread starter Thread starter idifacs_john
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I

idifacs_john

Guest
I recently saw another thread , in which the comment was made that laity participation in the mass is not necessary for the mass to be valid, that the priest alone makes the mass valid, wether or not anyone is there.

so then; exactly what is the purpose of being forced to go to a mass under obligation and with a penalty imposed if we dont go, or imposed upon ones return, only to be told it doesnt matter if we participate or not.

what it sounds like ,is just go, sit there, dont be rude and all is well. im starting to find more an more reasons to not bother going to mass, than i am for why it matters if i am there or not.

of course there is typical cookie cutter answer, God loves us, we love God. an that is nice and fuzzy, except that love is free and a two way street and telling someone well if you love me you will do this or else suffer the consequences, which the church cant really seem to answer why that is okay to impose upon people. at least not explain in a logical way other than because we said so.
 
Last edited:
Your viewpoint here is one that is the result of legalism, IMO. You, yourself, obviously don’t agree with legalistic mentalities so your problem is one of perception. I think that is good news.

The penalty for not attending Mass regularly is the absence of what you would have otherwise received if you would have gone. Your participation would make your attendance all the more efficacious.
 
Last edited:
There is active participation and passive participation. Sitting there, meditating on the beauty of the mass, of how wonderful Jesus is, the mystery of the mass in general, is passive participation. This is what we do in the EF mass and has been done for centuries. This can also be done in the OF mass, without responding.

Active participation is the same, but said outwardly. I have a difficult time with this; sometimes saying the same words every week can become monotonous. Sometimes things go a bit quick and its hard to find a silent time to reflect. I’ve found it easier to not speak and to instead focus on the Sacrifice of the mass and mystery of it, all the while speaking with Jesus.
 
Valid as in it happens.

In Mass obviously we receive God, but it is not just that. It’s about giving yourself to God. It’s about God in the Eucharist; it is not so much about you or me. One should love God enough to do so little, at least.
Strictly speaking, it is the only form of worship for us modern Catholics. We offer our God’s Sacrifice. It is significant in a variety of ways.

Don’t base your disciplines on what you feel like, but on God’s desires.
Like athletes do not always feel like exercising, they MUST keep to their schedule. We might not always feel like doing the thing, but we must for our own sake, but mostly for love of God. God bless
 
Participation matters in a crucially important way! The Catechism speaks of the need, for every sacrament, of receiving it with “right disposition” - this disposition of the person receiving the sacrament determines the fruitfulness, or lack of it, that can come forth from the sacrament. The sacrament is holy and efficacious, even if the person is just sitting there like a spectator daydreaming - but it will bear no fruit in him. The Catechism says this:
Catechism 1131 The sacraments are efficacious signs of grace, instituted by Christ and entrusted to the Church, by which divine life is dispensed to us. The visible rites by which the sacraments are celebrated signify and make present the graces proper to each sacrament. They bear fruit in those who receive them with the required dispositions.
Click to expand...
And another reference:
Catechism 1098 The assembly should prepare itself to encounter its Lord and to become “a people well disposed.” The preparation of hearts is the joint work of the Holy Spirit and the assembly, especially of its ministers. The grace of the Holy Spirit seeks to awaken faith, conversion of heart, and adherence to the Father’s will. These dispositions are the precondition both for the reception of other graces conferred in the celebration itself and the fruits of new life which the celebration is intended to produce afterward.
Click to expand...
Note these very important truths:
  1. The sacraments are efficacious signs of grace, instituted by Christ and entrusted to the Church, by which divine life is dispensed to us.
  2. They bear fruit in those who receive them with the required dispositions.
and therefore:
  1. The assembly should prepare itself to encounter its Lord and to become “a people well disposed.” … These dispositions are the precondition both for the reception of other graces conferred in the celebration itself and the fruits of new life which the celebration is intended to produce afterward.
In other words, if anyone wants to leave the Holy Mass empty handed, so to speak - empty of the new life offered to all there - and instead, leaving the celebration with a new sin of disdaining the Presence and Sacrifice and Self-Gift of Christ in Holy Eucharist, then “that is on you,” so to speak.

An excellent article on this very question is here: Lest They Receive It in Vain
 
We CELIBRATE mass. If you sit and don’t participate (actively refuse to participate) then you weren’t there!
 
Participate could be understood multiple ways here. Being attentive and reverent at mass within reason (dealing with multiple kids is not something you could be faulted for), celebrating within one’s heart, worshipping spiritually, etc… are ways of participating. It’s not just a matter of singing or verbal responses or physical postures, not to downplay any of those things.
 
Last edited:
You get out of the mass what you put in to it.

Does lukewarm ring a bell here for anyone - What did Jesus say - I spit you out in the Book of Revelations .

I’ll add also what he told St Faustina : Its prayed on the 9th day of the devotion

Today bring to Me SOULS WHO HAVE BECOME LUKEWARM,* and immerse them in the abyss of My mercy. These souls wound My Heart most painfully. My soul suffered the most dreadful loathing in the Garden of Olives because of lukewarm souls. They were the reason I cried out: ‘Father, take this cup away from Me, if it be Your will.’ For them, the last hope of salvation is to run to My mercy.
 
Last edited:
idifacs_john said:
what it sounds like ,is just go, sit there, dont be rude and all is well. im starting to find more an more reasons to not bother going to mass, than i am for why it matters if i am there or not.
Click to expand...
I have not read the rest of the thread, but I am sure that there are good responses to this. I would like to throw out anothe way for you to think about this. The Mass is the anamnesis for the crucifixion. Through it, we become present at the foot of His cross, and at His resurrection. Both these events are valid even though you and I were not present, but by choosing to make ourselves present to them we enter into His mysteries.

If you heard that Jesus was going to be at the Church at a certain day and time, would you bother to go there? Would you let him sit there waiting for you, and not show? His presence will be validly there, whether you participate or not.

If you could have been present with Mary and John at the foot of His cross, would you bother to go?

“This news about Jesus spread throughout Judea and the surrounding country.” Lk.7:17

If you lived in Judea and heard the news about Jesus, would you go out to hear what He had to say?
 
You sound like you don’t believe that it is Jesus Himself in that Tabernacle. Wow–if a huge celebrity that you love comes to town and you have free, front row seats you wouldn’t attend? And here is the creator of the universe, your creator, your lover, your redeemer, and you are too bored to go?
As someone said, you appear to be stuck in the sad state of mere legalism. The Catholic faith is about love; drawing closer in love to the one that loves you. He asks you to visit him and witness his redemptive sacrifice one hour per week. But you have better things to do?
 
The Church requires us to go to Mass for good reason. The Mass is extremely beneficial to us. Just because you aren’t technically needed for the Mass to be said doesn’t mean there’s no point in going. You’re going for yourself, so that you can participate by uniting yourself with the priest in offering the Sacrifice and receiving many graces by doing so. The Sacrifice Christ made on Calvary is made present on the altar at Mass. The ability to participate in the offering of that Sacrifice on the altar is a great privilege.

Maybe you should read up on the importance of the Mass and all the benefits you get from going so that you can see why the Church thinks it’s so important that we go every Sunday and holy day.
 
idifacs_john said:
except that love is free and a two way street and telling someone well if you love me you will do this or else suffer the consequences,
Click to expand...
There’s some contradiction in your premise here. Love can’t be free and a two way street. I would propose that Love is NOT free and rarely an equal two-way street. There are always consequences to our actions/inactions, especially where love is concerned. If I love my wife and never tell her, never attempt a birthday/Christmas/Valentine gift, never give her the time and attention I can, there will certainly be consequences. Of course, when the love is genuine, the effort isn’t so bad, but in fact, you’re eager to make it known. The Church is simply trying to guide us into a more loving relationship with God - because he does love us.
 
Cynicism? The only reason to believe in God is love. That belief infers that we acknowledge our very creation that we may know, serve and love God. We do not do this by ignoring Him, watching the game, shopping, texting or gazing out the window during mass. In that case, we are no better than those who stood by and watched Christ die on the cross - worse even!

Love also implies a fear of offending the one we love. Fear, yes, but love must be the primary motivating factor. Love demands sacrifice, whether it is earthly love or heavenly love. We attend mass at a bare, embarrassing minimum, out of obedience to Christ’s command.

But, do we really want to face Him at judgment and say “Yeah, I went to mass because I had to, I guess…”?

Where’s the love? Where’s the sacrifice?
 
Last edited:
well attendance and active participation i guess are becoming both intertwined here, the church has decided that the bare embarrassing minium is to go to the mass out of obedience to at least the church it self, Christ never proclaimed for anyone to build a brick an mortar building and etc, not that there is anything wrong with the mass, , but to then find out that if one person is there or not, doesnt participate, doesnt really mean jack diddly because the priest is really the only one that matters then everything else being stated really doesnt mean that much.

God cant put restrictions on love, He cant say you dont really love me if you dont participate at mass , but then state that since the church said the bare embarrassing minimum is to be there on holy days of obligation is the proof that one does love God . Then no matter which way one splits the issue one can never really love God because of human limitations or some never ending state of sin. I appreciate what the church offers, what i dont appreciate is a discussion that essentially states that it really doesnt matter if laity are there are not, and it doesnt matter if one participates or not, we just have to be in the seats give our 10 % and be polite.

So it is not enough to just be there; now we have to be there participate and be happy too, it is literally taking all aspects of freedom away, and forcing people into submission all under this guise of well you dont really love God if you dont do it this way, or you are a bad catholic or what ever other label is out there to slap onto people.

An then there is the guilt trip aspect of it, Christ died for you, well no kidding, but I didn’t ask for that, I didn’t make that choice, an no one in their right mind would to ask for such a thing to happen, that was a personal decision made and doesnt justify penalizing or guilt tripping someone who either doesnt understand, or just doesn’t want to be held as a victim for something one never even had a part in.

When you do something for someone else you do that with the understanding that you dont do it so you can play the guilt trip / victim card every time you want something from that person. you do the right thing because it is the right thing to do an you willingly choose to do it no matter which way the chips fall. you dont do something good, then create a set of rules saying if you dont show appreciation an love then by our standards you are a bad person and off with your head.

but again it is rather puzzling if the church really finds it necessary to deem the laity are obligated to attend mass and participate and be happy, but it doesnt really matter in the long run because the priest is the one doing it all, and if we dont like it then watch out.

I know the mass isn’t pointless, but it feels pointless if it doesnt matter i participate or not and it doesnt matter if i am there or not. All that seems to matter to the Church is that I am there. An put on a forced smile and go through the motions.
 
Last edited:
misstherese said:
There is active participation and passive participation. Sitting there, meditating on the beauty of the mass, of how wonderful Jesus is, the mystery of the mass in general, is passive participation. This is what we do in the EF mass and has been done for centuries. This can also be done in the OF mass, without responding.

Active participation is the same, but said outwardly. I have a difficult time with this; sometimes saying the same words every week can become monotonous. Sometimes things go a bit quick and its hard to find a silent time to reflect. I’ve found it easier to not speak and to instead focus on the Sacrifice of the mass and mystery of it, all the while speaking with Jesus.
Click to expand...
The Council Fathers in Sacrosanctum Concilium
  1. Mother Church earnestly desires that all the faithful should be led to that fully conscious, and active participation in liturgical celebrations which is demanded by the very nature of the liturgy. Such participation by the Christian people as "a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a redeemed people (1 Pet. 2:9; cf. 2:4-5), is their right and duty by reason of their baptism. In the restoration and promotion of the sacred liturgy, this full and active participation by all the people is the aim to be considered before all else; for it is the primary and indispensable source from which the faithful are to derive the true Christian spirit; and therefore pastors of souls must zealously strive to achieve it, by means of the necessary instruction, in all their pastoral work.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
The church isn’t guiding when they create mandates and obligations.
 
it is just an an excuse for laziness & slothfulness. why can’t you offer one hour of your time to sit w/your parish in the Lord’s presence?

what possible thing do you’ve better to do?

sleep? watch tv? play a video game?

you don’t have to stand, sit, say a prayer, walk the communion line if you don’t wish to

just attend the Mass, sit quietly and that’ll’ve been the best hour of your week

our Lord asks so very little; and is willing to give much
 
Last edited:
idifacs_john said:
I recently saw another thread , in which the comment was made that laity participation in the mass is not necessary for the mass to be valid, that the priest alone makes the mass valid, wether or not anyone is there.
Click to expand...
I think you’re mixing up two different ideas of necessary here. Are you familiar with the Catholic definition of “valid”? It has a somewhat specialized meaning - for something to be valid means that it actually succeeded at what it was doing. So a valid marriage results in a married couple; an invalid marriage does not. A valid Mass means that Mass actually happened and a successful consecration occurred; an invalid Mass means that what has actually happened is a ceremony where some bread and wine were handed out.

Participation is not necessary for the Mass to be valid. It’s still a Mass, the consecration still happens, all that, whether or not anyone participates, or even if there is no one else there at all. In fact there are occasions allowed where the priest celebrates entirely alone!

On the other hand, the obligation to the faithful is to be at Mass. This obligation is for our spiritual benefit. That doesn’t mean at all that your participation isn’t good! It just means there isn’t a rule that there have to be X number of people in attendance for Mass to happen. Think about it - that would rather put a lot of people in an awkward situation. But obviously you don’t receive much benefit from a Mass you don’t go to. And that matters to Jesus - He’s giving you a gift in Mass, he wants you to take it!

The minimum legal prescription is that we be present. This is not saying that being present is all we should do - rather that it’s the written minimum. You should pay attention beyond that as you are able. Obviously that’s going to vary by person. One generally ought not to show up and sit in the pew reading the newspaper, but if one has no focus one day that’s just how it goes. And whether one happens to be feeling happy that day is entirely irrelevant. I have sat and cried in many a pew, and the reasons were not always Godly or even relevant to what was going on.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top