Why bother with Religion?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Imagine23
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Imagine23 said:
Actually, I’m trying to get you all to convince me of God’s existence. You are failing miserably.

The largest providers of charitable services to third world countries are atheist organizations. They are called countries (Great Britain, France, Japan, Germany, etc.).

The cells at issue are blastocysts. They are a group of about 150 cells. It is ridiculous to think they could feel suffering. To deny the huge potential benefit stem cell research could reap for fear of killing 150 cells is insane.

Yes, doctors perform abortions. So does God. A significant number of pregnancies actually terminate through spontaneous abortion without the mother even knowing she was pregnant. This must be the work of God, right? Therefore God is an abortionist.
Click to expand...
Why should we convince you? Have you ever tried proving a point to someone who won’t listen or already has their mind made up? I can’t convince you. You have to come to God on your own.

Quit the sarcasm. It won’t get your very far.

The thought of God being an abortionist is not only absurd, but laughable. I hardly imagine that God rips babies limb by limb, crushes their heads and throws them in dumpsters. Don’t confuse miscarriages (natural) with abortions (unnatural).
 
40.png
imagine23:
I don’t understand your point about being respectful. I have insulted nobody. I am asking questions and replying to questions and statements.

I guess I don’t understand what you mean by “seeking spirituality”. In asking for an explanation for your belief in biblical stories, I believe I am seeking spirituality.
Click to expand...
Nothing insulting about comparing our evidence for an belief in God to belief in a ‘Supreme Pickle’ creator? Give me a break!

Of course if you want to know why we believe as we do we have to start from the beginning, with belief in a creator or creators of the universe.

Do you have any idea how complicated the universe actually is? And what fantastically enormous odds (I’m talking a number so large there probably aren’t enough particles actually existing in it to write the number down on) that there are against everything in it occurring and developing exactly as it did by random chance? Read up on it sometime.

So there’s one part of the puzzle solved - we can be pretty certain that the universe came about by design. In other words someone or something out there powerful enough to guide and control how the universe develops. Seems like those ancient Greeks were just a mite smarter than you there bud.

Can you start off by acknowledging that at least this much of our belief (that yes, there is an incredibly powerful Supreme Being or Beings that brought about the universe and all in it the way it is today) is not mere myth or delusion?
 
Imagine23 said:
Actually, I’m trying to get you all to convince me of God’s existence. You are failing miserably.

The largest providers of charitable services to third world countries are atheist organizations. They are called countries (Great Britain, France, Japan, Germany, etc.).

The cells at issue are blastocysts. They are a group of about 150 cells. It is ridiculous to think they could feel suffering. To deny the huge potential benefit stem cell research could reap for fear of killing 150 cells is insane.

Yes, doctors perform abortions. So does God. A significant number of pregnancies actually terminate through spontaneous abortion without the mother even knowing she was pregnant. This must be the work of God, right? Therefore God is an abortionist.
Click to expand...
You like jumping around on subjects, don’t you? 😉

No matter what you “believe” in, it’s general human morality to know that killing another human being is wrong, correct?

So, the abortion argument always boils down to "when is that group of cells considered “human”?
Scientifically, it’s a unique human being at the moment of conception. When the sperm and egg unite, there instantly exists a UNIQUE set of human DNA (scientific evidence)…
Taking any action which leads to the destruction of that unique set of DNA is considered killing a human being… which is morally wrong, no matter what you believe.
 
It took inimate death before I finally humbled myself to hope for something more. After I survived cancer and chemo I still was unsure. God did reward me for my suffering and that seed of faith. Two years later He revealed Himself to me in a profound way. I hope and pray that you are not humbled to that point before you start to beleive. Tim
 
Imagine23 said:
Faith in that sense is the irrational belief in something for which there is no evidence.
Click to expand...
With all due respect to StratusRose, religion is based on reason and not on faith alone.

Have you read the Catechism of the Catholic Church–it is filled with reasonable arguments for God and Catholic beliefs, and no, not based on circular reasoning, either.

What apologists for the Christian faith have you read? Do you know they exist–ones better than we poor amateurs on this board, I mean. Have your tried reading people like C. S. Lewis or Fulton Sheen or G. K. Chesterton?
 
Imagine23 said:
Em in FL:

Your main point seems to be my inability to disprove the existence of God. Why should the burden be on me to disprove an unbelievable story that another human invented? It is impossible to disprove the existence of God, but that does not make it real.
Click to expand...
That’s a dodge. If God doesn’t exist, then it behooves you – or any atheist – to logically and rationally explan how reality came to be. You don’t look at a car, for instance, and then just irrationally decide that it must have just come together by random circumstance. Everyone would laugh at you if you made that pronouncement because it would mean you are deranged.

The simple fact of the car means that someone created it. If you are arguing against that idea, then you need to provide an alternative.

So, actually the burden of proof is entirely on you as the non-believer. You must explain how life came about in a scientific, logical and rational way.

Which you cannot do.

So, your construct is at its base irrational.
What if I were to tell you that 10 thousand years ago a chocolate covered pickle created the universe and everything in it in one hour. If you don’t worship and love said pickle you will spend eternity in suffering. If you do worship the pickle you will find eternal bliss.
Click to expand...
Now, please go about disproving my theory about my supreme pickle creator, his effect on the creation of the universe, and the consquences of worshiping him.
Click to expand...
Again, your notion is that there is no proof of the existence of God… that there is no evidence. There is an abundance of evidence, historically, scientifically and philosohically. You need to grapple with that reality and refute it in some way.
 
Religion is “binding yourself to God”. If you don’t believe you need to bind yourself to God then don’t. It is that simple.

Catholics are concerned with the state and future of the soul. Atheists don’t care much about souls.

Catholics and science agree that life begins at conception. That clump of cells you refer to was one time you. What is the difference between then and now?
 
Our faith is not based solely on the events of almost 2000 years ago, but on many more events that have happened much more recently. Although the life and teachings of Christ and His Church are firmly rooted in His life, death, and resurrection, God has continued to show us that He still exists and has never abdandoned His Church.

You should read up on the lives and miracles of the saints. You will discover that miracles still occurr on a fairly regular basis. There is a mountain of evidence that is irrefutable by science.

As recently as the 1960’s Padre Pio, lived a life full of the miraculous. For 50 years he suffered the stigmata, wounds similar to our Lords, and they were present right up until the day after he died. That day the wounds that had been physically present suddenly and miraculously disappeared. That is only one of many hundreds of miracle attributed to him.

In nearly every century and nearly every decade one or more saints have been associated with one or more miracles. Some with many hundreds or even thousands of miraculous events, St Anthony, blessed Martin De Porrres and many others were virtual miracle workers…

The problem with convincing anyone who does not believe is not in finding evidence, because evidence abounds even within this very age. The problem is in getting folks like you to believe what is right before your eyes. Anyone can see the miraculous cloak of St. Juan Diego in Mexico City or the incorrupt body of St Rita in Cassica, Italy or St Bernedette in France. These items are totally unexplainable by modern science.

Only by opening your mind and heart to God, can you ever expect to return to faith. God can speak to you tonight but the question is, would you be listening. God does not force anyone to believe, the Truth is out there for anyone to see, but you need to be open to it.

30 years ago I used to be in the exact same position as you, I wanted definitive proof of the Almighty’s existence and proof of the hereafter. I looked at various alternative beliefs but nothing satisfied me. It was in reading about the lives of the saints that I found what I was looking for. I hope you find what you are searching for too.
 
If you are looking for some kind of mathematical, physical, or tangible proof, for the entire Catholic faith, then you are not going to find it during your life on this earth. You will find strong arguments, or physical proof for some of it, or you may not. Some things though are beyond understanding and proving.

I find it amazing that humans think that they should be able to understand everything. Such pride we are filled with.
 
buffalo said:
Catholics and science agree that life begins at conception. That clump of cells you refer to was one time you. What is the difference between then and now?
Click to expand...
The difference between a blastocyst (a group of 150 cells) and me is that I feel pain, have a memory of past occurences, interact with other humans and a blastocyst does not. Preventing a group of 150 cells from turning into a human being causes no suffering whatsoever to the blastocyst, yet has the potential to end the suffering of thousands of humans.

How you can you see this as a difficult choice?
 
StratusRose said:
Why should we convince you? Have you ever tried proving a point to someone who won’t listen or already has their mind made up? I can’t convince you. You have to come to God on your own.

Quit the sarcasm. It won’t get your very far.

The thought of God being an abortionist is not only absurd, but laughable. I hardly imagine that God rips babies limb by limb, crushes their heads and throws them in dumpsters. Don’t confuse miscarriages (natural) with abortions (unnatural).
Click to expand...
Semantics. You call them miscarriages, I call them God-performed abortions. If miscarriages are “natural” and it is your contention that God is the source behind all of nature, then god performs miscarriages (aka abortions).
 
Hi there Imagine,
The simple answer is: by our very nature, we are religious beings.

By saying we are not religious is to deny the very nature that humans have, our religious sense.
 
Imagine23 said:
Semantics. You call them miscarriages, I call them God-performed abortions. If miscarriages are “natural” and it is your contention that God is the source behind all of nature, then god performs miscarriages (aka abortions).
Click to expand...
Death is a physical evil. God does not perform evil, but he does allow it. There are many reasons for why he does. However, physical evil is something that he can undo in granting eternal life.
 
God is not a human being…
He CREATES life and eventually brings us home… age doesn’t matter (in-utero or 98 years old)…

It is morally unacceptable for human beings to destroy another human being… no matter what your faith is.

Imagine23 said:
The difference between a blastocyst (a group of 150 cells) and me is that I feel pain, have a memory of past occurences, interact with other humans and a blastocyst does not. Preventing a group of 150 cells from turning into a human being causes no suffering whatsoever to the blastocyst, yet has the potential to end the suffering of thousands of humans.

How you can you see this as a difficult choice?
Click to expand...

Do you have a memory from the moment you were born?
What about when you were 6 months old?

What about those who are paralized and have no “pain”? Are they worthy of being killed sinced they don’t “suffer”?

:confused: :rolleyes:
 
40.png
imagine23:
Semantics. You call them miscarriages, I call them God-performed abortions. If miscarriages are “natural” and it is your contention that God is the source behind all of nature, then god performs miscarriages (aka abortions).
Click to expand...
We can call 'em green cheese if you like. Doesn’t mean we have the right to do 'em, any more than we have the right to kill a 20-year old merely because we find the fact that they live inconvenient.

That ‘clump of cells’, whether a child or potential child, is arguably (from science and reason, not just religion) already human and with such rights, including right to life, as all humans have. Depends on your definition of humanity. Certainly it has unique DNA, which is as valid a definition of being an independent human as any.

Many people detest the death penalty and euthanasia on purely humanistic, rational and scientific grounds - why not abortion?

Before you destroy any child or potential child you need to argue a very convincing case to do so. And for lots of people (non-religious as well as religious) the mere fact that you can abort 'em isn’t good enough.
 
Imagine23 said:
The difference between a blastocyst (a group of 150 cells) and me is that I feel pain, have a memory of past occurences, interact with other humans and a blastocyst does not. Preventing a group of 150 cells from turning into a human being causes no suffering whatsoever to the blastocyst, yet has the potential to end the suffering of thousands of humans.

How you can you see this as a difficult choice?
Click to expand...
How can you not? :confused:
 
Imagine23 said:
Semantics. You call them miscarriages, I call them God-performed abortions. If miscarriages are “natural” and it is your contention that God is the source behind all of nature, then god performs miscarriages (aka abortions).
Click to expand...
This is probably the most asinine statement I have ever read. How can you say that God performs abortions, WHEN YOU DON’T EVEN BELIEVE IN GOD??!!
 
Imagine23 said:
The difference between a blastocyst (a group of 150 cells) and me is that I feel pain, have a memory of past occurences, interact with other humans and a blastocyst does not. Preventing a group of 150 cells from turning into a human being causes no suffering whatsoever to the blastocyst, yet has the potential to end the suffering of thousands of humans.

How you can you see this as a difficult choice?
Click to expand...
Because the ends don’t justify the means. You can’t just ignore that a blastocyst is a human being. You also have not addressed the FACT that YOU were once a blastocyst.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top