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hn160
Guest
This is the very reason why the LC-MS did not sign the JDDJ. It is all in that matter of interpretation. If we can not be honest in our differences, how can we agree on anything?
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mlz
Guest
Thank you dear brother in Christ for understanding! I as a Lutheran prior to becoming Catholic had the hardest time understanding this. It was in my search for truth that I pursued understanding of why this was so. I argued for some time why not but came to understand the reason and rational of the Catholic Church. Then finding such respect and depth and love for the beauty of this faith I then became Catholic (only one in my family) I love all my brothers and sisters in Christ whether they be Catholic or not but this is something that is not a negative as I use to believe but a positive. It is more than just understanding the true presence of the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ in the Eucharist but the “Communion” or agreement/unity with the Holy Catholic faith that is at the root of the acceptance of communion with Catholics. It at present is not a perfect union and as much as wanted until it is it would be a false union and therefore not perfect as Christ would have it. In the Lutheran mindset they believe that this union would come from Communion but the Catholic Church knows otherwise. They are right in knowing that while we share as brothers and sisters in Christ due to our common baptism we would not be in perfect union at least yet and need that in order to participate together in the most intimate of all communion, His Body and Blood. And so, until that occurs of which we all long for, we must be respectful of this.
Blessings and prayers for this unity,
mlz
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EvangelCatholic
Guest
Please cite theological statements.Regarding bread and wine as the ‘elements’ for Holy Communion?
Pick a century.
Regarding mass Communion? (as opposed to private between priest and laity)
Pick a century.
In anticipation, to settle any argument would be to ‘see’ what the 1st century Catholics did. Our witness there - yours and mine - would be Scriptures (see Paul/John) or extramurally, Ignatius / Clement…down to Augustine.
As pointed out by ‘Mary’ - the subject matter is The Eucharist; not prayers. A man in the jungle without a ‘faith’ will have his prayers heard by He Who made us all, but a different subject to the thread subject.
In the spirit of information sharing rather than argumentation…
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mlz
Guest
Thank you Jon for this response as I agree, it is a matter of respect and manners.
Blessings,
mlz
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EvangelCatholic
Guest
There seems to be a lack of any credible argument that the Catholic-Lutheran agreements don’t exist or apply. I feel like the messenger of news some don’t even want to acknowledge. Suggest a look at traditionalist Catholic websites; their animosity toward the Popes is frightening.
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mlz
Guest
Amen!
mlz
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mlz
Guest
Yes, that is a good point. As a former Lutheran I think they feel they are entitled to recieve Christ in the Eucharist whether a Lutheran church or Catholic because they are Christians. They don’t understand the unity of faith, as I did not also.
mlz
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mlz
Guest
Honestly EvangelCatholic I’m wondering if perhaps God is calling you to become Catholic as I was once in your camp and found God calling me into the Catholic Church from ECLA Lutheran. It took me 3 plus years of study and ?'s but finally came in and am so at peace now. But I do respect all believers in Christ so I will pray that He helps you be all He wants you to be wherever He calls you to be
Blessings,
mlz
P.S. When someone told me I think perhaps God might be calling you to become Catholic I was so adamant…NO, I don’t want to become Catholic! (
now I’m happily Catholic…you just never know!)
po18guy
Well-known member
In short, intercommunion dishonors the fervent prayer of our Lord as recorded in John 17:20-23:
Let us endeavor to make the word “intercommunion” obsolete - one soul at a time.
Atheists and agnostics revel in the disharmony in Christendom. To many of them it stands as evidence, if not proof, that Christianity is false. How to disprove their assertion?
Let us endeavor to make the word “intercommunion” obsolete - one soul at a time.
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EvangelCatholic
Guest
Sometimes we lose sight that we are Christians. The papacy is leading the Church.
**John 3:8
Like the wind, spirit is invisible. A person cannot see it move or work. However, one can see the effect of what the Spirit does. One can see how it acts on things—just as the wind going through a tree full of leaves. One cannot see the wind, but everyone has seen how it makes the tree’s leaves and the branches sway. Some have perhaps witnessed a strong wind knock a nest out of a tree or rip leaves or branches off a tree, but not the wind itself. It is the same with the Spirit. The Spirit moves, and we then can see people react. The people do things. A work gets done. What we see is not the Spirit itself, but the Spirit’s fruit.**
po18guy
Well-known member
They do exist and they do apply - but not to communion yet, as there is no communion at an acceptable level to allow Lutherans to partake. We have grown up in a pluralistic Christian society, but “Lutheran” or “Protestant” both indicate, first and foremost, a rejection of the Catholic Church. Both terms, both names indicate a willing separation which is not yet overcome. Desiring communion with that which you reject seems a bit like having your cake and eating it, too.
Am thinking of a new signature: “Let us invite with charity and explain with clarity so that we may worship in unity.”
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adf417
Guest
I like it!
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Isaiah45_9
Guest
Perhaps you missed my Justin Martyr quote?
A prayer does not equal with your original post. Your post is about communion by Lutherans in the Catholic Church, not about prayers by Lutherans in the Catholic Church.
Besides, who is any one of us to determine if a prayer is welcome or not?
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Isaiah45_9
Guest
Ignatius of Antioch, THE EPISTLE TO THE SMYRNAEANS
VI. Let no man be deceived. Even the heavenly powers and the glory of the angels and the principalities both visible and invisible,[1] except they believe in the blood of Christ [Who is God],[2] have a judgment awaiting them. Let him that receiveth receive[3] Let not office puff up any man. For faith and love are everything, and there is nothing better than these. Mark those who hold strange doctrine with regard to the grace[4] of Jesus Christ, which came unto us, how opposed they are to the mind of God. They have no thought for love, nor for the widow,[5] the orphan, the afflicted, the prisoner,[6] the hungry nor the thirsty. They withhold themselves from Eucharist[7] and prayer, because they confess not[8] that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which flesh suffered for our sins, and which in His loving-kindness the Father raised up.
VII. So then they who speak against the gift of God [1] die by their disputing. It were better for them to exhibit love, that they may also rise again. Therefore it is fitting to withhold yourselves from such, and to say nothing either in private or in public about them, but rather to give heed unto the prophets,[2] and especially to the Gospel, wherein the passion is manifested to us and the resurrection is accomplished.
**VIII. Avoid divisions,[3] as the beginning of evil. Follow, all of you, the bishop, as Jesus Christ followed the Father; and follow the presbytery as the Apostles.[4] Moreover reverence the deacons as the commandment of God.[5] Let no man do aught pertaining to the Church apart from the bishop. Let that eucharist be considered valid [6] which is under the bishop or him to whom he commits it. Wheresoever the bishop appears, there let the people be, even as wheresoever Christ Jesus is, there is the Catholic Church.[1] It is not lawful apart from the bishop either to baptize [2] or to hold a love-feast.[3] But whatsoever he approves, that also is well-pleasing to God, that everything which you do may be secure and valid.
IX. It is reasonable that henceforth we should awake and live soberly,[1] while we have opportunity to repent and turn to God. It is good to acknowledge God and the bishop. He that honours the bishop is honoured of God. He that does anything without the knowledge of the bishop serves the Devil. Let all things then abound unto you in grace, for you are worthy. In every way you have refreshed me, and Jesus Christ shall refresh you. Alike in my absence and presence you have cherished me. May God reward you, and as you endure for His sake, so shall you attain unto Him.**
VI. Let no man be deceived. Even the heavenly powers and the glory of the angels and the principalities both visible and invisible,[1] except they believe in the blood of Christ [Who is God],[2] have a judgment awaiting them. Let him that receiveth receive[3] Let not office puff up any man. For faith and love are everything, and there is nothing better than these. Mark those who hold strange doctrine with regard to the grace[4] of Jesus Christ, which came unto us, how opposed they are to the mind of God. They have no thought for love, nor for the widow,[5] the orphan, the afflicted, the prisoner,[6] the hungry nor the thirsty. They withhold themselves from Eucharist[7] and prayer, because they confess not[8] that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which flesh suffered for our sins, and which in His loving-kindness the Father raised up.
VII. So then they who speak against the gift of God [1] die by their disputing. It were better for them to exhibit love, that they may also rise again. Therefore it is fitting to withhold yourselves from such, and to say nothing either in private or in public about them, but rather to give heed unto the prophets,[2] and especially to the Gospel, wherein the passion is manifested to us and the resurrection is accomplished.
**VIII. Avoid divisions,[3] as the beginning of evil. Follow, all of you, the bishop, as Jesus Christ followed the Father; and follow the presbytery as the Apostles.[4] Moreover reverence the deacons as the commandment of God.[5] Let no man do aught pertaining to the Church apart from the bishop. Let that eucharist be considered valid [6] which is under the bishop or him to whom he commits it. Wheresoever the bishop appears, there let the people be, even as wheresoever Christ Jesus is, there is the Catholic Church.[1] It is not lawful apart from the bishop either to baptize [2] or to hold a love-feast.[3] But whatsoever he approves, that also is well-pleasing to God, that everything which you do may be secure and valid.
IX. It is reasonable that henceforth we should awake and live soberly,[1] while we have opportunity to repent and turn to God. It is good to acknowledge God and the bishop. He that honours the bishop is honoured of God. He that does anything without the knowledge of the bishop serves the Devil. Let all things then abound unto you in grace, for you are worthy. In every way you have refreshed me, and Jesus Christ shall refresh you. Alike in my absence and presence you have cherished me. May God reward you, and as you endure for His sake, so shall you attain unto Him.**
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EvangelCatholic
Guest
Thanks for posting the writings of St Ignatius, an early Church Father who Lutherans honor on October 17; here’s the prayer of the day:
"Almighty God, we praise Your name for Ignatius of Antioch, pastor and martyr. He offered himself as grain to be ground by the teeth of wild beasts so that he might present to You the pure bread of sacrifice. Accept the willing tribute of all that we are and have and give us a portion in the pure unspotted offering of Your Son, Jesus Christ, who lives and reigns with You and the Holy Spirit, one God, now and forever. Amen"
Not sure what your point is, however since Lutherans agree a bishop is the head of the diocese/ synod as a sign of eucharistic integrity and unity.
But you asserted this yesterday:
And I asked you the following:
All Lutherans, if they are well catechized, reject consubstantiation. Consubstantiation, like Transubstantiation, is a metaphysical construct, and it is this Aristotelian approach the reformers rejected.
That Lutherans often talk interchangeably about both bread/wine and body/blood reflects the same language that St.Paul uses in Corinthians. We do not believe that there is a mixing or mingling, or that a third element is created by the bread/body, etc. These are consubstantiation, and we reject them.
So for Lutherans, Christ’s words are clear. From the confessions:
Jon
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EvangelCatholic
Guest
Well-stated.
One assertion is that the Vatican is out ahead of some laity in ecumenical desire. What I have come to understand is that caution and respect are also important. The zeal for Church Unity is being articulated most notably in the ELCA/ Episcopal ranksl.
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rfournier103
Guest
In other words, Lutherans believe in Transubstansiation, correct?
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rfournier103
Guest
That seems very clear to me. I’ve been wanting to comment, but not really sure how to go about it.
Excellent post.
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EvangelCatholic
Guest
I believe the Western Church is healing. Lutherans welcome back home as articulated in
“Lutherans and Catholics: From Conflict to Communion” Vatican Radio news.va/en/news/lutherans-and-catholics-from-conflict-to-communion
“Lutherans and Catholics: From Conflict to Communion” Vatican Radio news.va/en/news/lutherans-and-catholics-from-conflict-to-communion
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