Why Can't Anyone Have A Different Opinion About The Holocaust?

[Gabriel_of_12]

I believe that when referring to the Shoah or the Holocaust, it should only be applied toward the genocide of the European Jews. The murdering of the 5 to 6 million other people in the camps is, IMO, seperate and apart from the Holocaust.

Thank you Valke2, you just confirmed my commentary. How people refer to the term Holocaust or Shoah as you stated, as taking prejudices by seperating the victims by using terms that do not apply. Thus you get mixed up opinions of whether this happened or not.

I must clarify to you Valke2 a Holocaust never happened. The murdering of millions of men, women, children, Christians, Catholics, and Jews did. A Shoah may have occurred, depending how you are applying the Shoah to the inhumane event.

Peace be with you

 

[catharina]

Thank you Valke2, you just confirmed my commentary. How people refer to the term Holocaust or Shoah as you stated, as taking prejudices by seperating the victims by using terms that do not apply. Thus you get mixed up opinions of whether this happened or not.

I must clarify to you Valke2 a Holocaust never happened. The murdering of millions of men, women, children, Christians, Catholics, and Jews did. A Shoah may have occurred, depending how you are applying the Shoah to the inhumane event.

Peace be with you

It’s likely that Valke2, as a Jewish woman, understands that you speak for yourself. On the other hand, from an article regarding papal thought of two Popes who lived in Europe through those days, are these thoughts.

catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0900668.htm

"While the pope [Benedict XVI] publicly reaffirmed his recognition of the Holocaust and expressed his respect and esteem for the Jewish people in late January, the February audience was the first time since the Bishop Williamson scandal that the pope met with Jewish leaders to express his feelings and beliefs personally.

Telling the Jewish leaders he wanted to make his own a prayer by Pope John Paul II, Pope Benedict prayed, “God of our fathers, you chose Abraham and his descendants to bring your name to the nations: We are deeply saddened by the behavior of those who in the course of history have caused these children of yours to suffer and, asking your forgiveness, we wish to commit ourselves to genuine brotherhood with the people of the Covenant.”

The prayer was the text of the note Pope John Paul left in Jerusalem’s Western Wall, one of Judaism’s holiest sites, during a March 2000 visit.

Pope Benedict also told the Jewish leaders about his own visit to the Nazis’ Auschwitz death camp in 2006.

“As I walked through the entrance to that place of horror, the scene of such untold suffering, I meditated on the countless number of prisoners, so many of them Jews, who had trodden that same path into captivity at Auschwitz and in all the other prison camps,” the pope said.

“How can we begin to grasp the enormity of what took place in those infamous prisons?” he asked.

The pope told the leaders, "The hatred and contempt for men, women and children that was manifested in the Shoah was a crime against God and against humanity.

"This should be clear to everyone," the pope said.

"It is beyond question that any denial or minimization of this terrible crime is intolerable and altogether unacceptable," Pope Benedict said.

The German-born pope repeated what he had said during his visit to Auschwitz: “The rulers of the Third Reich wanted to crush the entire Jewish people, to cancel it from the register of the peoples of the earth. Thus the words of the psalm, ‘We are being killed, accounted as sheep for the slaughter,’ were fulfilled in a terrifying way.”

The pope also told the Jewish leaders that the Catholic Church “is profoundly and irrevocably committed to reject all anti-Semitism” and to build good and lasting relations with the Jewish community.

Reaffirming the importance of remembering the Holocaust, the pope said, “it is my fervent prayer that the memory of this appalling crime will strengthen our determination to heal the wounds that for too long have sullied relations between Christians and Jews.”"

However if you wish to align yourself with the mindset of B. Williamson, it's a fact that your 'free will' allows that. The Church does not support your thinking though.

 

[Valke2]

It’s likely that Valke2, as a Jewish woman, understands that you speak for yourself. .

Jewish man. And I understand it was the opinion of the poster and not Church doctrine.

I’d rather see opinions that differ as to whether all who died in the camps should be part of the Holocaust then different opinions as to whether many jews were even murdered in the camps.

 

[catharina]

Jewish man. And I understand it was the opinion of the poster and not Church doctrine.

I’d rather see opinions that differ as to whether all who died in the camps should be part of the Holocaust then different opinions as to whether many jews were even murdered in the camps.

Good heavens - and all this time I thought you were female.

Most kind, patient and understanding approach you’re taking. My own response, very strong, is that I’m grateful in this type of circumstances that the eldest relatives (survivors) of my son have died and gone to their rest. It is painful to imagine that anyone would seek to criticize and re-define a term that has been historically accepted in this country for more than fifty years.

 

[Peter_J]

"While the pope [Benedict XVI] publicly reaffirmed his recognition of the Holocaust and expressed his respect and esteem for the Jewish people in late January, the February audience was the first time since the Bishop Williamson scandal that the pope met with Jewish leaders to express his feelings and beliefs personally.

Telling the Jewish leaders he wanted to make his own a prayer by Pope John Paul II, Pope Benedict prayed, “God of our fathers, you chose Abraham and his descendants to bring your name to the nations: We are deeply saddened by the behavior of those who in the course of history have caused these children of yours to suffer and, asking your forgiveness, we wish to commit ourselves to genuine brotherhood with the people of the Covenant.”

The prayer was the text of the note Pope John Paul left in Jerusalem’s Western Wall, one of Judaism’s holiest sites, during a March 2000 visit.

Pope Benedict also told the Jewish leaders about his own visit to the Nazis’ Auschwitz death camp in 2006.

“As I walked through the entrance to that place of horror, the scene of such untold suffering, I meditated on the countless number of prisoners, so many of them Jews, who had trodden that same path into captivity at Auschwitz and in all the other prison camps,” the pope said.

“How can we begin to grasp the enormity of what took place in those infamous prisons?” he asked.

The pope told the leaders, "The hatred and contempt for men, women and children that was manifested in the Shoah was a crime against God and against humanity.

"This should be clear to everyone," the pope said.

"It is beyond question that any denial or minimization of this terrible crime is intolerable and altogether unacceptable," Pope Benedict said.

The German-born pope repeated what he had said during his visit to Auschwitz: “The rulers of the Third Reich wanted to crush the entire Jewish people, to cancel it from the register of the peoples of the earth. Thus the words of the psalm, ‘We are being killed, accounted as sheep for the slaughter,’ were fulfilled in a terrifying way.”

The pope also told the Jewish leaders that the Catholic Church “is profoundly and irrevocably committed to reject all anti-Semitism” and to build good and lasting relations with the Jewish community.

Reaffirming the importance of remembering the Holocaust, the pope said, “it is my fervent prayer that the memory of this appalling crime will strengthen our determination to heal the wounds that for too long have sullied relations between Christians and Jews.”"

I also like the comment from Rabbi David Rosen, about the possibility that “the uproar surrounding Bishop Williamson could have [a] positive effect”. It would certainly be nice to someday be able to say to Williamson, “What you intended for evil, God has used for good.”

 

[catharina]

I also like the comment from Rabbi David Rosen, about the possibility that “the uproar surrounding Bishop Williamson could have [a] positive effect”. It would certainly be nice to someday be able to say to Williamson, “What you intended for evil, God has used for good.”

I see you read the entire article. Good for you.

If others are hiding in corners, agreeing with B. Williamson, then yes, they might (finally) learn a greater truth from this very sad event. That might be central to what the rabbi is saying.

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

OTCA what did you think of the child molesting priests revealed in the U.S. in the recent past? They lied to their parishioners, commited horrible crimes, and were in fact often covered up by their superiors. What do you say about them? They fooled everyone.

Your desperation shows here and I am surprised as a Catholic yourself to even rehash this again. If you truly knew your faith Ella, you would understand why this is happening in the church. Furthermore, this has NOTHIING to do with the topic. As well as the Catholic church still being the LOWEST rates of molestation within ALL of the Christian denominations. www.reformation.com will teach you something, so you need not bring this up again.

 

[Lil_Cat]

Your desperation shows here and I am surprised as a Catholic yourself to even rehash this again. If you truly knew your faith Ella, you would understand why this is happening in the church. Furthermore, this has NOTHIING to do with the topic. As well as the Catholic church still being the LOWEST rates of molestation within ALL of the Christian denominations. www.reformation.com will teach you something, so you need not bring this up again.

You know, its always interesting when someone brings this website up.

I know the issue for me, as a non-Catholic, is that there was REPEATED coverup. Yeah, bad luck that they did it, but are any of these denominations covering it up and shuffling the pastors from one church to another?

It’s true that there are more incidents with other demographics (teachers, counselors, step-parents, you could go on forever), but their superiors are not covering up for them. They are held accountable for what they do, not “rehabilitated” and then sent to a new church.

Anyway, that was way off topic.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

It’s likely that Valke2, as a Jewish woman, understands that you speak for yourself. On the other hand, from an article regarding papal thought of two Popes who lived in Europe through those days, are these thoughts.

catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0900668.htm

"While the pope [Benedict XVI] publicly reaffirmed his recognition of the Holocaust and expressed his respect and esteem for the Jewish people in late January, the February audience was the first time since the Bishop Williamson scandal that the pope met with Jewish leaders to express his feelings and beliefs personally.

Telling the Jewish leaders he wanted to make his own a prayer by Pope John Paul II, Pope Benedict prayed, “God of our fathers, you chose Abraham and his descendants to bring your name to the nations: We are deeply saddened by the behavior of those who in the course of history have caused these children of yours to suffer and, asking your forgiveness, we wish to commit ourselves to genuine brotherhood with the people of the Covenant.”

The prayer was the text of the note Pope John Paul left in Jerusalem’s Western Wall, one of Judaism’s holiest sites, during a March 2000 visit.

Pope Benedict also told the Jewish leaders about his own visit to the Nazis’ Auschwitz death camp in 2006.

“As I walked through the entrance to that place of horror, the scene of such untold suffering, I meditated on the countless number of prisoners, so many of them Jews, who had trodden that same path into captivity at Auschwitz and in all the other prison camps,” the pope said.

“How can we begin to grasp the enormity of what took place in those infamous prisons?” he asked.

The pope told the leaders, "The hatred and contempt for men, women and children that was manifested in the Shoah was a crime against God and against humanity.

"This should be clear to everyone," the pope said.

"It is beyond question that any denial or minimization of this terrible crime is intolerable and altogether unacceptable," Pope Benedict said.

The German-born pope repeated what he had said during his visit to Auschwitz: “The rulers of the Third Reich wanted to crush the entire Jewish people, to cancel it from the register of the peoples of the earth. Thus the words of the psalm, ‘We are being killed, accounted as sheep for the slaughter,’ were fulfilled in a terrifying way.”

The pope also told the Jewish leaders that the Catholic Church “is profoundly and irrevocably committed to reject all anti-Semitism” and to build good and lasting relations with the Jewish community.

Reaffirming the importance of remembering the Holocaust, the pope said, “it is my fervent prayer that the memory of this appalling crime will strengthen our determination to heal the wounds that for too long have sullied relations between Christians and Jews.”"

However if you wish to align yourself with the mindset of B. Williamson, it's a fact that your 'free will' allows that. The Church does not support your thinking though.

Gabriel of 12;

I am sorry you leave my opinion incorrectly; For one my opinion does not conflict with Catholic church teaching. I say “Amen” to the Popes statement about the Holocaust, because he the Pope never fails to mention Women, Children included in the Holocaust description. In other words the Pope confirms my opinion that none should be forgotten be it; Women, Children, Christian, Jew, as the Pope puts it “Crimes against Humanity”. The Pope does not prejudice against only a few, but includes all who fell victim to this tragedy.

I dont align myself with anyone who denies these “Crimes of humanity”, Iam of the opinion that when one speaks of these atrocities, let us not use language or be of a mind set; that lends prejudice, that this event took place only to select few. I hold to Pope Benedict XVI definition “Crimes of humanity”.

P.S Iam not redifining the Term “Holocaust”, I have given the correct definition here from the Hebrew interpretation; It is the majority that has redefined the term “Holocaust”.

Peace be with you

 

[catharina]

Gabriel of 12;

P.S Iam not redifining the Term “Holocaust”, I have given the correct definition here from the Hebrew interpretation; It is the majority that has redefined the term “Holocaust”.

Peace be with you

Once more:

**"The pope told the leaders, "The hatred and contempt for men, women and children that was manifested in the Shoah was a crime against God and against humanity.

“This should be clear to everyone,” the pope said.**

"It is beyond question that any denial or minimization of this terrible crime is intolerable and altogether unacceptable," Pope Benedict said.

**The German-born pope repeated what he had said during his visit to Auschwitz: "The rulers of the Third Reich wanted to crush the entire Jewish people, to cancel it from the register of the peoples of the earth. Thus the words of the psalm, ‘We are being killed, accounted as sheep for the slaughter,’ were fulfilled in a terrifying way."
**

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Once more:

**"The pope told the leaders, "The hatred and contempt for men, women and children that was manifested in the Shoah was a crime against God and against humanity.

“This should be clear to everyone,” the pope said.**

"It is beyond question that any denial or minimization of this terrible crime is intolerable and altogether unacceptable," Pope Benedict said.

The German-born pope repeated what he had said during his visit to Auschwitz: "The rulers of the Third Reich wanted to crush the entire Jewish people, to cancel it from the register of the peoples of the earth. Thus the words of the psalm, ‘We are being killed, accounted as sheep for the slaughter,’ were fulfilled in a terrifying way."

Gabriel of 12:

Amen, this comment does not conflict with my opinion, only the short version you posted of what the Pope said. When you shorten the Pope’s quote to just the “crime of hatred” in the “Shoa”, does not justify the action of the hatred in Killing women, children, Christians and Jews. Had you posted his complete statement, you will find that the Pope does not limit the worlds terminolgy of a holocaust or shoa to a select few, but demands attention to all who fell victim to this “Crime of humanity”.

Peace be with you

 

[Soutane]

Your desperation shows here and I am surprised as a Catholic yourself to even rehash this again. If you truly knew your faith Ella, you would understand why this is happening in the church. Furthermore, this has NOTHIING to do with the topic. As well as the Catholic church still being the LOWEST rates of molestation within ALL of the Christian denominations. www.reformation.com will teach you something, so you need not bring this up again.

In your attempt to defend the indefensible you are completely missing the point of this post.Ella was using the case of the disgraceful priests to show that even though our enemies attempted to use their crimes to condemn and slander a whole church you are using the lie of two old Jews to undermine the veracity of the completely historical FACT that 6,000,000+ Jews were MURDERED.

Both assertions are absurd AND contemptible.

Will you or will you not align your belief to that of the Church on this matter?You must.Do not let pride blind you.Recant your position.As one devout Catholic to another I have a responsibility to you.Helping you to see you are in error and encouraging you to practise humilty and accede that the Church in the person of Pope Benedict XVI is correct on this issue is a responsibilty that WE Catholics take seriously.

The Enemy is the true author of the lie that the six million did not die.

 

[Soutane]

You know, its always interesting when someone brings this website up.

I know the issue for me, as a non-Catholic, is that there was REPEATED coverup. Yeah, bad luck that they did it, but are any of these denominations covering it up and shuffling the pastors from one church to another?

It’s true that there are more incidents with other demographics (teachers, counselors, step-parents, you could go on forever), but their superiors are not covering up for them. They are held accountable for what they do, not “rehabilitated” and then sent to a new church.

Anyway, that was way off topic.

You are correct.It’s WAY off topic.Start a new thread if you feel it is discussion worthy.

 

[Lil_Cat]

You are correct.It’s WAY off topic.Start a new thread if you feel it is discussion worthy.

It’s not and that’s why I didn’t

 

[pnewton]

It’s not and that’s why I didn’t

Then tie it in to the Holocaust or let us fry and serve the red herring for diner.

 

[Soutane]

then tie it in to the holocaust or let us fry and serve the red herring for diner.

:d:d:d:d:d:d:d

 

[Soutane]

I guess the smily function isn’t working.

 

[Church_Militant]

I would like to know why people cannot have a different opinion about the Holocaust without being condemned for it. Many people don’t even believe there were even that many Jews in Germany at that time. If someone else wants to think and believe that the number was different, he has every right to do so without being ridiculed about it.
What about the Jewish couple who lied about even meeting at the Holocaust? They went on to write this wonderful love story about the Holocaust and it turned out they were never even there! They went on Oprah and lied to her and lied to the media about their story. What about them? What about the millions of Christians who were murdered during the Holocaust? Gypsys?
Although I agree the Jews were in fact targeted victims, others also perished. Why not talk about these victims?
Don’t get me wrong, it was a terrible awful catastrophic event that should of never happened and I feel for the Jews, but people have a right to have a different view about it and not be ridiculed for it.

There is no question that there were about 4 million other victims of the Holocaust that were not Jewish, but that doesn’t diminish the injustice nor the horrific impact upon the Jews.

Certainly one has the freedom to hold whatever opinion one chooses, and we certainly see that every day here at CAF where people come in and allege ridiculous numbers to the Inquisition and other such sad historic incidents but then act like their own religious tradition is not guilty of similar (or worse).

One problem with all this is that if one publicly makes a statement like these, it makes one look kind of dumb, as well as offending a lot of people.

My dear sainted Me-ma used to tell us, “It’s better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one’s mouth and remove all doubt.”

 

[Lil_Cat]

Then tie it in to the Holocaust or let us fry and serve the red herring for diner.

Serve the red herring but I wasn’t the one that brought it up

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4891522&postcount=349

 

[tyciol]

Holocaust revisionism is fine, history is constantly revised with scholars having differing arguments about what happened, how things happened, statistics of how they happened, etc.

The problem is moreso holocaust deniers. For one thing: it is very difficult to prove negatives. Proving something happened is much easier than proving something did NOT happen.

For example, with the recent controversy revolving around readmitting that one Bishop guy (or was it a bishop? It wasn’t a priest… something else) who was saying that Jews were definately not gassed to death, that is a big claim, and it is wrong to claim it without proof.

It would be one thing if you wanted to criticize the process on which people draw the conclusions that they were gassed. I have never actually looked into it so I have no idea what quality this argument is, I just have faith in historical scholars to try and represent the past with some accuracy.

But it’s another thing to just say “this did not happen”. It is too assertive, and it totally lacks humility in one’s judgements. The most someone should do is simply enlighten upon what evidence they do not find convincing, not assert non-happenings, which is arrogant.