Why can't Fr. Jenkins be fired?

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I agree. Who did Jesus dine with? Who did he come to seek and to save?
I can tell you who he didn’t dine with.
He never dined with the Herods and the Ceasars and the leaders of this world who were only interested in aggrandizing their own power bases.

He didn’t dine with anyone who was okay with doing away with 1 million babies a year, as far as I know.

And who is he coming back one more time to judge?
 
Re: Why can’t Fr. Jenkins be fired?
He can’t be fired for the same reason that child abusing priests the world over couldn’t be fired.

Firing him would take a political will and cajones that church administrators have been lacking for quite some time now.

It is called covering up for one of their own.
 
I know some Catholics who feel the way you do and they are wonderful and faithful people who want Catholics to be absolutely loving and peaceful which I applaud. I think the pro-life movement is moving in a direction that promotes peace and the love of Jesus Christ to change hearts in the matter of abortion. I myself care a great deal about the fact that innocent babies are being murdered every minute and that the President’s actions fully support and encourage this, like all the other posts have informed you. Unfortunately, I have been labeled a “one-issue Catholic” which I feel is very unfair, divides Catholics, and somehow makes it unpopular to say you are pro-life. I care very much about healthcare, the economy, education, the environment and it happens that most of these things I think Obama is handling miserably. Most pro-lifers I know also care about these issues but we can’t always have a rosary prayer vigil for these issues and a lot of these issues although important aren’t torturing and killing millions of babies and let us never forget the horrible effects it can have on the women who have been forced to make this horrible “choice”.
I will pray for you that you will be able to not only hear what the President says in his speeches but also that you will pay attention to his actions and policies. I will continue to also pray for President Obama, that he will have a change of heart and fight for the rights and fair treatment of ALL humans, men and woman of every race, the impoverished, our enemies & terriorists, and the unborn.

God bless you.
 
I am a genuine Catholic and I believe everything that the Church believes and teaches. I also believe that there are priorities. Life and death issues are first priority. When I served in Vietnam, staying alive was first priority. When bullets are flying past your ears, you are not really concerned about having dry cigarettes. Later on, when the dust settles, we can worry about that. If genuine Catholics are accused of being “one issue” people, it is because real live human beings are being unjustly executed in the womb, by the millions. We will have time to worry about social justice and the plight of illegal aliens and woman priests later on down the line, after we deal with this issue of killing innocent children. Life and death issues have first priority. Everything else is secondary. In this regard, Barack Obama and his ilk are the enemy. He is just plain lucky that he did wind up gasping his life away in some abortionist’s bucket because his mom didn’t want him. Hundreds of thousands of his black brothers and sisters have met that fate. Until something more important than life and death comes along, I guess that I will be a “one-issue” Catholic.
 
I guess sometimes it is easier for the Catholics that support Obama to just label pro-lifers rather than face the fact that they made a mistake and he isn’t what they thought he was because it is plain to me and always has been that he is a two-faced liar, says what he needs to say to get elected or funds and ultimately power. I mean who knows if he even believes abortion is right or if he just sees that this is what he needs to say to get the big monetary backing he needs to be where he is and also the backing of the media. The bottom line is that Catholics who are under his spell as I told one such person who I care for and admire for the many great ways he is Catholic, they have to close their hearts to the plight of the unborn otherwise they would have to admit that Obama is a fraud. I do think that God has a real purpose for Obama, though, especially in terms of abortion. When we have a president who supports pro-life issues like President Bush then people get complacent, thinking well it not as bad as it could be because we have partial birth abortion laws and conscience laws etc but bottom line still many babies are being killed then here comes Obama, aggressively taking everything remotely pro-life away then people wake up and start being more actively pro-life and that is what I think can be a great outcome that we not only push to save what we already had in place to limit abortion but push to say that it is not enough because most of Americans don’t approve of abortion, period! It is sad thought there are many good Catholics who can’t feel the real horror of abortion and make it a priority.
 
It’s amazing how quickly evil is spreading in the present day… Catholics defending the most pro-abortion president in our history? A man who did not support the Infants Born Alive Protections Act in Illinois? Wow. Just wow.
 
Life and death issues have first priority. Everything else is secondary. In this regard, Barack Obama and his ilk are the enemy.
The genocidal death wish of abortion is global and unprecedented. It is not just Obama. His ilk are also in India and China, skewing even the proportional sexual make-up of their populations-all in the name of scientce and modernism of course.

This is the policy put forth by the ‘wisest’ and the most educated among us. Highly educated Catholic officials are part of that culture more than the one which opposes these policies tooth and nail.

For most Catholic voters, the life issue is like maybe issue 20 or 30 on a long list of what kind of society they want to inhabit. The fact that Obama is capable taking the discussion even further down the road from the unwanted in the birth canal to the unwanted who are actually breathing does not even register with most Catholics.

Even that is not a priority.

It is exceedingly evident that the issue of life is not a priority for a lot of the Catholic institution from those running the Vatican newspaper on down through bishop’s and priests who of course are against abortion .
 
ABSOLUTE TRUTH?
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Do I believe in absolute truth? Probably it exists, but I suspect that our human mind is too finite to know it. That is why religion appeals to me, frankly, It asks the basic questions of life: why are we here? where are we going? etc.

Some people need exact answers, and they usually follow some faith that claims to provide exact answers, like Catholicism or evangelical Protestantism or Islam. I find that some of my friends, like me, can live by faith without knowledge. We're not ready to rely on any church or book or pope or preacher for precise answers, even though I accept much of traditional Christianity and certainly revere Christ. I embrace enough of Christianity to satisfy me, but have doubts which no longer trouble me (they once did). 

 Actually, I believe the world is too magnificent and mysterious - maybe a million or a billion solar systems like ours - for mortals to comprehend. That's one reason for my faith. But having faith is not the same as holding all sorts of doctrines. I have read most of the Church Fathers, know the scriptures rather well, have attended worship at all sorts of places - including Catholic and Orthodox churches, mosques, Hindu, Sikh, Jain, Buddhist and Shinto temples, etc - and appreciate the sincere efforts of our species to understand the mysteries of life. But I guess I hold God as too high above me - as Psalm 139 says - to claim to know all that much when it comes to spiritual matters.

   There is a book called 'Christian Agnostic' which comes close to my own view. The author is a Christian, as I am, in that I know God through Christ, and my worldview is a Christian worldview. But I also know that behind and beyond all this lies a deeper reality which our human capacity cannot grasp. I don't need grasp it. That's where my faith helps me live day to day, trusting in the grace of God and grateful for this experience we call life, even with its setbacks and sorrows. I try my best to appreciate all faiths and be patient with those who are certain that they have a monopoly on truth. It isn't always easy.
Agnostic…relativist…secularist - any of those terms will work. I used to be one of those. However, I came to realize that everyone can’t be right. We can’t “all find our own Truth.” There either is a God, or there isn’t. Jesus is the Son of God, or He isn’t. Being a relativist/agnostic is the lazy man’s way out IMO.

I have no problem respecting other’s opinions and beliefs, but I also have no problem saying that Jesus Christ is Lord and that His Church on earth, the Catholic Church, is the holder of His revealed Truth. Other religions have part of the Truth.

Catechism of the Catholic Church said:
843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as “a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life.”

If others are insulted by someone saying that they actually have conviction in their beliefs, then those who feel insulted probably have serious doubts about their own beliefs. Hopefully, those doubts/questions will lead them to the true Church.
 
Re: Why can’t Fr. Jenkins be fired?
He can’t be fired for the same reason that child abusing priests the world over couldn’t be fired.

Firing him would take a political will and cajones that church administrators have been lacking for quite some time now.

It is called covering up for one of their own.
You have to scroll up. The canon law and the religious laws of the Church that impair firing Fr. Jenkins have been explained at great length and detail.

Check out some of my previous posts and you’ll find the answers. But don’t be angry at the bishops for not doing what the Holy See will not allow them to do, because it is prohibited by Church law and theology. That will only aggravate you and be unfair to them.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Hi, Chipies85233,

I really do think your characterization of President Obama is both unjust and unkind… 😃

chipies85233;5264592 said:
"… it is plain to me and always has been that he is a two-faced liar, says what he needs to say to get elected or funds and ultimately power. I mean who knows if he even believes abortion is right or if he just sees that this is what he needs to say to get the big monetary backing he needs to be where he is and also the backing of the media.

In my opinion, President Obama has been one of the most forthright and consistent US politicans … since … well, Aaron Burr comes to mind, but I am not sure that this analogy quite captures the impact! Obama is not merely in favor of abortion - he has found the highway on the slippery slope leading straight to the bottom: infantacide! Those outrageous few who somehow escaped the abortionists knife - and dared to survive to be born alive inspite of their mother’s wishes - are still not safe according to this former IL Senator - now, US President. Like the ancient Greeks - these infants are left alone to simply perish in the elements (today we use an unattend Soiled Utility Room in a hospital rather then then side of mountain - but the net effects are the same!)

Truly, I think anyone claiming to have voted for Obama because they think he will reduce the number of abortions (infantacide has been previously classified a felony - so, there are no official hospital statistics for such a way of ending human life) is simply replacing rational analysis for the more comfortable rationalization. In my judgment, Obama has really been most honest in his genuine detestation for the unwanted unborn (and of course, those who are still unwanted after having the boldness to be born!)

So, please, in the interest of fairness, judge the President by his almost consistent rhetoric (by US politician standards) on abortion and simply acknowledge that his principles toward “Life” (as contained in the phrase of "…Life, Liberty and the Persuit of Happiness…) are dependent on the Roe v Wade et al decisions. For those of us over 60 years of age (I’m 62) I think our time will soon be coming when ‘encouraged euthanisia’ becomes one of those 'unenumerated /unspecified rights that will be found in the US Constitution.

God bless
 
Hi, Roy5,

Part 1 of 2

Ah, brevity… where for art thou? 😃 When I reviewed this post, I was found to be over the 6,000 character limit… :eek: So, please forgive me for chosing to divide this response in two, rather then erase some of the content.

Before you do anything, I suggest you re-examine your faulty methodology for trying to analyze if there is a cause-and-effect relationship between Obama and the absolute number of reported abortions.
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Before I'm ready to condemn President Obama, I want to see whether abortions decline during his presidency.
I think you will find that there are simply too many variables to make a convincing argument based on only one factor. And, in your enthusiasm for withhold judgment based on reported abortions - please bear in mind that the landscape for increasing the real death rate of the unborn has changed now that over-the-counter medications specifically designed to induce an abortion are legal and the legal age for obtaining such a product will probably be lowered from 18. (Here is a link: cbs2chicago.com/national/pill.17.year.2.965766.html) And, based on this judge’s rationale - what about those 16-year olds who cry out for thier access to “Plan B”…can they be leff out?

The simple facts are these: conception has brought about human life and this human life is willfully and deliberately terminated - either through an abortion’s knife or a drug. The will be a simply impossibility for we humans to count the number of snuffed-out lives involved. Of course, God knows that number becaue each and every one was created in His Image.
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  A superior university is a place where different ideas are freely expressed.
Interesting. You know, no one teaches chemistry with the idea that there ARE ONLY the four elements identified by the ancient Greeks (fire, air, earth and water). Freely expressing (teaching?) such ideas would be frowned upon in all academic circles. Our knowledge of the elements has gone beyond the limited ancient Greek view of the physical universe and now we recognize 117 elements - and none of the original 4 are among them! (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Periodic_table) Yet - we are still running around with the truly ancient idea that what is developing in the womb is not human life and worthy for that very reason of protection - if not love and affection.

In my opinion, Notre Dame University claims to be a Catholic University - and superiorty in its educational program would need to be judged from this claim. Fr. Jenkins and the Board of NDU has failed the basic test of honesty - by not only failing to teach the Catholic position, but in inviting the Abortionist-in-Chief to give the commencement address and to receive an honorary doctoral degree in law. Truly ironic if one views law as the organized system of protecting everyone’s rights.
Now, as for superstition, forgive me for this honesty. I believe that Christianity - Catholic, Orthodox and Protestantism - has been seriously impacted by superstition. It would offend many if I began to expand on this, so I won’t.
When you decide to give us your views on this topic - please do so in another thread. Hopefully, the quality of the logic used in such a thread will be superior to that previously presented.
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  My creed is simple. I love the Lord my God and try to serve him. I love Christ and try to emulate him by following his teachings (as I understand them).
Doing fine here. Ah, but can this creed hold up…?

Continued on to part 2…😃

God bless
 
Hi, Roy5,

Part 2 of 2
I respect all religions that are tolerant, reach out to those in need, and seek justice and peace. I stand in awe at this mammoth, majestic, magnificent and mysterious universe. I admit to doubts about many doctrines, but feel that God respects a brain that tries to understand and a heart that seeks to love. I worship at the church of my choice but have visited many different churches, temples, and mosques…
Apparently this creed is not able to hold up to the stresses of the real world. If ever there was a statement about unable to make a commitment - it appears to this creed as an attempt at humanism with some type of false banner entitled ‘Christian’. Here are some ideas that may be of help:

1.) While showing respect and reaching out to those in need and seeking justice and peace are not usually considered a problem in themselvs - they are not necessarily Christian either - but, from the way you describe them - simply a humanistic approach to life is your real creed.

2.) Here is a doctrine you may want to consider: “Unless you eat the Flesh of the Son of Man, you have no life in you.” (John 6:53) There is only one Church founded by Jesus Christ (and, that would be the Catholic Church) that offers this - and there is no mosque that proclaims Christ as God. So, this ‘creed’ of yours is not so much of a bucket for holding onto the principles expressed by the God, but more of a seive for allowing all to leak out in a muddle of confusion.

3.) Here is a story about some who had trouble with actually making up their minds about what to do. You will find the entire story in Matt 13:3-23. It appears that the creed you have presented is a hybred (cross?) between the seed that fell on the road and the seed that fell on the rocky ground. After re-reading Matthew 13, let me know how you see it.
My problem is with people of any affiliation who claim to have a monopoly on truth, and when Benedict XVI said that Protestant churches weren’t really churches but ‘ecclesial entities’ and added that ministers really don’t officiate at valid communion services, that annoyed and distressed.
You may recall that the joke about the company hiring for the head accountant position - and only one question was asked: “How much is 2 + 2?” Well, the first applicant say, “4” and was politely shown the door, as was the second. When the got to third, he responded, “What would you like it to be and I will set it up that way.” He was hired! The company was called Enron. (Here is a link: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enron ) What is really remembered about Enron today, was the degree of accounting fraud that they engaged in. There is this annoying fact that truth is one and error is legion. Christ - the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity - founded His Church (and, that would be the Cathoic Church) on Peter (Matt 16:18). God holds all the cards - now, either you believe He does and acted in a particular way (as recorded in the Bible) or you don’t. One of the recorded events was Christ consecrating common bread and wine into His Body, Blood, Human Soul and Divinity - and then commanding His Apostles to eat and drink. (Mark 14:22) You either believe the Words of Christ, as understood by the Apostles, by the Early Church Fathers and has been faithfully taught by the Catholic Church to this very day - or - you don’t. And, don’t look for any guidance in any mosque on this matter.
But it needs to be less arrogant and holier-than-everyone-else. Fortunately most Catholics I know are open-minded and we can discuss religion without any of us condemning the faith of the others. Religion should be a bridge and not a barrier, a uniter and not a divider.
I guess there really are those who love the darkness and hate the light - (John 3:19) and calling those with the light may truly be viewed as arrogant - (1Cor 1:18) but, I guess this is the way it will be.

Like President Obama who claimed to want to dialogue at ND and then promptly declared that the positions were mutually exclusive and then proceeded on with his monologue - there are those who claim to want a bridge - but, refuse to cross. There is no life in the middle of the bridge, and Christ only set up one side where there is life. You are encouraged to re-examine your creed in light of the teachings of Christ and then cross the bridge to your eternal salvation.

God bless
 
You have to scroll up. The canon law and the religious laws of the Church that impair firing Fr. Jenkins have been explained at great length and detail.

Check out some of my previous posts and you’ll find the answers. But don’t be angry at the bishops for not doing what the Holy See will not allow them to do, because it is prohibited by Church law and theology. That will only aggravate you and be unfair to them.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
So it is that the Church has become mired in legalism then, that keeps pederasts and apostates and the like in high positions?
 
So it is that the Church has become mired in legalism then, that keeps pederasts and apostates and the like in high positions?
Not at all. Church law is based on sound theology, tradition and exegesis. There are some realities that can’t be dismissed or undone.

The law does not create the sin. The sin is there due to our own choices. The law cannot change, even when there is sin, because the law stands for truth. You cannot modify truth to solve a problem.

You have to work with the problem within the parameters that are provided for you by truth.

You mentioned pederasts, which really have nothing to do with Fr. Jenkins; but, let’s use that example. First, there is no litmus test for peodophilia. Second, a priest who is a peodophile is a priest forever. The Sacrament of Holy Orders cannot be undone. Third, the role and rights of a bishop have limits that come from sacred tradition and scripture. Fourth, the role and rights of religious and their superiors also have parameters that come from scripture and sacred tradition.

None of what I have mentioned in the above paragraph can be changed to resolve the problem of peodophilia. The problem has to be dealt with, yes. The rules have to be followed as well.

In the case of Fr. Jenkins, the issue has to be dealt with; but the rules have to be followed as they have been handed down to us through the centuries. We cannot undo the rules that are based on the faith of the Church to save the Church. That makes no sense.

That is one of many reasons why people like Fr. Jenkins and others should think very carefully about their choices. Their poor choices have a serious impact on the Church, not just them. Sometimes, these choices can back us into a dead end. This is very sad when this happens, because someone is going to be hurt.

The fault does not rest with the rules, but with those who make wrong choices. There is nothing wrong with the canons, the rules of religious life, or the teachings on the priesthood and religious life that govern people like Fr. Jenkins. The failure is in the individual or the individuals, because there were more people involved in this. Fr. Jenkins did not act alone.

In addition, the Church law says that the Church has to be fair to the Congregation of the Holy Cross. You cannot punish an entire congregation for something that one member did or even several members. ND was founded by the Congregation of the Holy Cross. Their intent was never to defy the Church or teach against the Church. Fr. Jenkins has betrayed the intent of his brothers. Should his brothers be penalized?

My order had an interesting case in its early history. This may or may not help understand the way the rules work. Years after our holy father Francis left the office of Superior General, another Superior General was elected, Brother Elias of Cortona. Br. Elias was a very well educated priest. He was a scholar.

He began a process of change in the order. Despite the Rule of St. Francis, he made some changes that were inconsistent with the mind of Father Francis. Eventually, Br. Elias was excommunicated for not obeying Fr. Francis. This was part of the rule. If you disobeyed Fr. Francis you would be excommunicated.

Even though Br. Elias was excommunicated, the changes that he made remained in place. The Pope and Francis agreed that Br. Elias was the canonical successor to the founder. They agreed that even though the changes that he made were in disobedience to Francis, the rest of the brothers had to obey them because they were not in and of themselves sinful. They could lead to sin, but not sinful.

The conclusion was that sin was not in the changes that Br. Elias made, but sin was in the choices that the brothers made. They could follow Br. Elias’ changes and avoid sin or they could follow them to the extreme and fall into sin. In any event, if they fell into sin, it was not the fault of Br. Elias. It was their choice. Br. Elias created a situation that left some latitude for sin. But he did not mandate sin or preach sin. Also, he was the canonical superior. Therefore, he had to be obeyed.

He was still excommunicated, because he had to obey the founder. His excommunication was due to his disobedience of the founder, not to the latitudes that he gave the friars.

This is a wonderful example of how truth plays out in Church law. The truths here were:
  1. Br. Elias is the superior and must be obeyed.
  2. Br. Elias is not asking anyone to sin.
  3. Fr. Francis is the founder and must be obeyed.
  4. Br. Elias disobeyed the founder.
  5. Therefore, Br. Elias is excommunicated for disobeying the founder, not because the changes were sinful.
Church law always bases itself on truth. Truth is handed down to us first by Sacred Tradition, second by the scriptures, and third by the Magisterium.

Hope this helps.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
This Forum has turned into name calling to anyone who disagrees with their point of view and frankly, I do not want any part of it anymore. You can read the viewpoints ranging from the soft spoken to the downright cruel ones who do not seem to care what they say to others. I certainly do not spend my time putting over some 1600 posts to rile any individuals heart for a response. I am not confrontational like some people. I have a life beyond making waves here. Abortion is cruel and most importantly, against not only Catholic teachings - but also against life itself. Today, some quack killed anther human being for what they have done to the unborn. Do you really think this is justice? It is someone’s radical views that did this. And in God’s church. Anti-abortion groups have denounced this violence - yet another life has been taken away. I am sure there are some who are glad one less “killer of the unborn” is no longer able to claim that title.

This will be my last forum response. I have a life outside of this forum. And I live it well. You can respond many times to what I have written and please do enjoy yourselves. Yes I am Catholic, yes I am a Christian…yes I am a genuine person.
The only title of “genuine” in my eyes is my heart in God. No human can ever tell me to the contrary and I do respect “her” opinion. I wish “him” well to keep posting till “he” reaches the 2000 mark. Of course since this does take a lot of “his” time to feel that “he” needs to respond. Sense a bit of sarcasm here or is it just the truth? To the people who wish to only do a healthy debate and unfortunately get a lengthy response, more power to you. Ah, me can only imagine fingers going to type a response. Congratulations! Enjoy yourselves without me.
 
This Forum has turned into name calling to anyone who disagrees with their point of view and frankly, I do not want any part of it anymore. You can read the viewpoints ranging from the soft spoken to the downright cruel ones who do not seem to care what they say to others. I certainly do not spend my time putting over some 1600 posts to rile any individuals heart for a response. I am not confrontational like some people. I have a life beyond making waves here. Abortion is cruel and most importantly, against not only Catholic teachings - but also against life itself. Today, some quack killed anther human being for what they have done to the unborn. Do you really think this is justice? It is someone’s radical views that did this. And in God’s church. Anti-abortion groups have denounced this violence - yet another life has been taken away. I am sure there are some who are glad one less “killer of the unborn” is no longer able to claim that title.

This will be my last forum response. I have a life outside of this forum. And I live it well. You can respond many times to what I have written and please do enjoy yourselves. Yes I am Catholic, yes I am a Christian…yes I am a genuine person.
The only title of “genuine” in my eyes is my heart in God. No human can ever tell me to the contrary and I do respect “her” opinion. I wish “him” well to keep posting till “he” reaches the 2000 mark. Of course since this does take a lot of “his” time to feel that “he” needs to respond. Sense a bit of sarcasm here or is it just the truth? To the people who wish to only do a healthy debate and unfortunately get a lengthy response, more power to you. Ah, me can only imagine fingers going to type a response. Congratulations! Enjoy yourselves without me.
What just happened?

Br. JR, OSF :confused:
 
What just happened?

Br. JR, OSF :confused:
Hey JR! I think that is the first time I’ve seen a post from you with a different smiley than 🙂 at the end. 😃

I’m not sure what happened either. I looked at the 7 posts and responses the poster got, and I can’t figure out how he got excited enough to lash out like that after such a short time on CAF. Apparently, his idea of healthy discussion must involve complete agreement by other posters. This is definitely the wrong forum for that! 😛
 
Hey JR! I think that is the first time I’ve seen a post from you with a different smiley than 🙂 at the end. 😃

I’m not sure what happened either. I looked at the 7 posts and responses the poster got, and I can’t figure out how he got excited enough to lash out like that after such a short time on CAF. Apparently, his idea of healthy discussion must involve complete agreement by other posters. This is definitely the wrong forum for that! 😛
Bold is mine

GOOD GRIEF! If there is one redeeming quality to CAF is that it shows that there is a dysfunctional side of the Catholic Church with no attempt to cover it up. LOL

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
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