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One_point
Guest
Catholics all say it but I don’t understand how any one has the courage to say what God can and cannot make.
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davidv
Guest
A square circle is a contradiction and is nonsense. God does not do nonsense.
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One_point
Guest
Well, God does not is different from God cannot. Catholics say without a hesitation that God CANNOT create a square circle. I don’t see that in revelation anywhere.
Why is it nonsense? Just because human logic cannot conceive something does not mean that God cannot. Man wisdom is foolishness to God. that is in the /bible. Where do we get the courage to decide what is possible for God beyond what he himself has said? I understand statements like “God cannot not be God” Its God himself who says. I don’t understand statements like “God cannot do what human logic deems impossible”. when did human logic became limit to God? seem like human logic is divine then just like God and forever? Is human logic god? is logic God? seem cart before horse thinking to me.
Why is it nonsense? Just because human logic cannot conceive something does not mean that God cannot. Man wisdom is foolishness to God. that is in the /bible. Where do we get the courage to decide what is possible for God beyond what he himself has said? I understand statements like “God cannot not be God” Its God himself who says. I don’t understand statements like “God cannot do what human logic deems impossible”. when did human logic became limit to God? seem like human logic is divine then just like God and forever? Is human logic god? is logic God? seem cart before horse thinking to me.
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davidv
Guest
Because contradictions cannot exist. The law of noncontradiction is a first principle of logic.
Just because human logic cannot conceive something does not mean that God cannot. Man wisdom is foolishness to God. that is in the /bible. Where do we get the courage to decide what is possible for God beyond what he himself has said? I understand statements like “God cannot not be God” Its God himself who says. I don’t understand statements like “God cannot do what human logic deems impossible”. when did human logic became limit to God? seem like human logic is divine then just like God and forever? Is human logic god? is logic God? seem cart before horse thinking to me.
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One_point
Guest
Even if it is a first principle of logic it does not answer my problem: why is logic a limit to God? Is logic divine?
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balto
Guest
He cannot create a square circle. It doesn’t need to be in revelation because it is accessible to reason, even tainted, fallen human reason. There is no such thing as a “square circle.” The term “square circle” refers to nothingness. You are asking how God can create a thing that is essentially nothing.
It would be like asking if God can nvrpaudlfdajnkv jkfldnavi aieava; ilaem. “But that doesn’t mean anything” you say. Precisely. Likewise, “square circle” means nothing, so asking if God can create it is asking a nonsensical question.
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One_point
Guest
Let me explain my confusion. It is your logic that says square circle is nonsense. In your world a square cannot be the same thing as a circle. But how do you know that there is no logic that can reconcile what seems irreconcilable to human intellect? The Bible says our wisdom is foolishness to God. So I don’t understand the strength of confidence in the assertion that this is nonsense. According to your logic, yes. But who says if its nonsense to you it must be nonsense to a greater infinitely greater mind? And if it is nonsense, if God makes it, it would not be nonsense anymore. It would be a real thing. Which means it was only unknowable to us but not really nonsense.
I know God can only be God because being God is what he is and he says “I change not”. It seems to me the ONLY way anyone can say God cannot make a square circle is if the logic itself is God because only God cannot change or the logic is Gods nature. Only Gods nature limits God. Nothing that is not God can limit God. Or to put differently, I understand denying that God can do anything that means God is not God. But that is the limit. Because it is a way of saying God is God. Nothing more. Which is our faith. But Not logic as limit. All logic is rubbish to God. Especially if it has not been confirmed by God in revelation but only rest on human logic.
Which is why I ask is logic God? If logic is not God then this is a highly arrogant assertion by creatures who are infinitely foolish when compared to God, like us or like any creature for that matter.
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Brendan
Guest
It is BECAUSE God’s mind is greater that we know that the law of non-contradiction must hold true for Him as well.
He will certainly have greater logic, know greater truths, but the knowledge of greater truths do not render the lesser truths to be false.
A person with a well advanced mathematical mind can do Laplace Transforms better than a child in elementary school. The attempts of the child to triple integrate would certainly seem foolish to the mathematician. But 2+2 will be equal to 4 for both.
The knowledge of advanced calculus does not render basic arithmetic to be false.
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Brendan
Guest
God is Rational, our participation in Reason come because we were created in His image and likeness.
He makes Himself know to us via Reason ( reference Socrates and Plato, who deduced the existence of God via Reason, not via other means of Revelation ( and Reason IS a form of Revlation)
We know certain Truths about God, and of His creation THROUGH the Revelation that is Reason. As God IS Truth, and can have no falsehood, what He has revealed to us, via the Church, via Scripture, and yes, via Reason, are known to be True.
We know that, in Base 10 notation, 2+2=4. That is true for us, and for God, for He has revealed it to be so.
We do know that the definition of a circle precludes it from being a square, we know that to be true
To claim that God can create a square circle is to claim that God is a deceiver, that Christ lied to us.
Is that a proposition that would claim?
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One_point
Guest
I don’t mean to be difficult. So after this last attempt at explaining why what you say which is sensible does not explain to me why God cannot make a square circle, or 2+2=93, or anyother paradox humans conceive as completely illogical and impossible even to God, after this I will sit back and just read the responses and pray and hope I understand.
First, I would like an answer to this: Does Catholicism require I believe God cannot make a square circle or 2+2=93 or a triangle without three angles? Am I in heresy if I believe God CAN do all these things and it is those who say he cant that are mistaken?
Then let me explain my last explanation: 2+2=4 is true. Why does that rule out 2+2=93? Why cant they both be true? Isnt it our mind which says only one of those can be true in an absolute way? I understand God can do more math than we know and this doesn’t mean our math is false. But why does doing different or what to us is contradictory math mean that our math is false? Isnt it true only because God has made it? What if God unmakes 2+2=4? or the logic that tells us square circle is nonsense?Is this logic eternal and impossible to change like God? Does that not make it God? Or divine. If it is not, why anyone can think God cannot over-rule it???
Also, revelation is guaranteed to be true but not human reasoning. human reasoning is subject to revelation it is not guaranteed to be true. in fact it is fallen.
Beyond this, I am done. I will just read henceforth. Thank you. Please someone answer the first question on heresy. Is it defined and am I free to reject it and still be a good catholic?
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Pat_Albertson
Guest
Want a picture of a square circle?
Here’s one, edge on:
I could do one face on too, as long as it was an infinitesimal part. I would prefer a slanted line for art’s sake though. I’m pretty sure that God is much more inventive than I am, so I’m pretty sure he could do it, although I don’t know exactly what it would be.
Here’s one, edge on:
I could do one face on too, as long as it was an infinitesimal part. I would prefer a slanted line for art’s sake though. I’m pretty sure that God is much more inventive than I am, so I’m pretty sure he could do it, although I don’t know exactly what it would be.
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tafan
Guest
One-point, its like saying: why can’t God create a man that is an angel? God can create anything, but what he creates will have a form that fits one definition or the other.
A circle has a set definition: (IIRC) it is a set of points on a plane that is equidistant from a single point. No square that He creates will fit this definition: since if He creates a square it will be a polygon with four equal distant sides and four right angles.
If God creates a angel, it is a purely spiritual being, so it cannot be a man since a man has both a physical body and a soul.
A circle has a set definition: (IIRC) it is a set of points on a plane that is equidistant from a single point. No square that He creates will fit this definition: since if He creates a square it will be a polygon with four equal distant sides and four right angles.
If God creates a angel, it is a purely spiritual being, so it cannot be a man since a man has both a physical body and a soul.
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Eternal_One
Guest
I imagine if God could or did create such a thing, He would have told us about it.
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tafan
Guest
That is not correct, a circle is a two dimensional object, which means there is no “edge on” viewpoint. Or saying it another way, it’s edge has a height of zero.Want a picture of a square circle?
Here’s one, edge on:
I could do one face on too, as long as it was an infinitesimal part. I would prefer a slanted line for art’s sake though. I’m pretty sure that God is much more inventive than I am, so I’m pretty sure he could do it, although I don’t know exactly what it would be.
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ThinkingSapien
Guest
You may want to start by trying to determine of “square circle” refers to anything coherent. The possible arrangements of words in sentences isn’t necessarily isomorphic to conditions or objects in reality.
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One_point
Guest
What if I say if God could not make such a thing he would have told us just like he told us he is himself and never changes? it is absoluteness of human logic which seem as true as God himself I doubt. I think it can change. just like God can make us not exist. I think he can make those logics not exist. only thing God canot make not to be is God. which is why I asked is this logic unchanging and absolute like God? I said I will only read and got tempted. I go back again now. just reading!
A square circle is something does does not and cannot exist. Even in our limited minds, a square fits one particular definition and a circle another. To be a square immediately excludes it being a circle and vice versa, or, a shape cannot be both a square and a circle at the same time. This is what’s called the principle of non-contradiction, and is to be held as true.
This therefore means a square circle simply does not exist, or put another way, it is nothing.
The same answer goes for the tired old “rock so heavy God cannot lift it” argument. Such a thing simply does not exist, and so therefore, it is also nothing.
And of course we know, “nothing” is impossible with God.
This therefore means a square circle simply does not exist, or put another way, it is nothing.
The same answer goes for the tired old “rock so heavy God cannot lift it” argument. Such a thing simply does not exist, and so therefore, it is also nothing.
And of course we know, “nothing” is impossible with God.
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pnewton
Guest
There are things God cannot do. He cannot contradict Himself, for example. He cannot do anything that is not logical possible, like make a rock too big for him to move. Most of these nonsensical challenges though are an error in human language, not an impossible task.
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Lost_Sheep
Guest
If you accept the axiom that with God all things are possible (Matthew 19:26, among others) and you take the “all things” part literally, then I would submit that God can indeed make a square circle. I’m sure He could even make a rock so big that even He couldn’t pick it up.
How is this possible? I don’t have the faintest idea; my limited human intellect does not have an explanation as to how. But, if your faith is strong enough to believe that God can do anything, then it must be true.
How is this possible? I don’t have the faintest idea; my limited human intellect does not have an explanation as to how. But, if your faith is strong enough to believe that God can do anything, then it must be true.
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Bakmoon
Guest
Maybe this explanation will make it clearer. Because the term square circle is a contradiction in terms, it doesn’t actually have any meaning. It’s a meaningless phrase that doesn’t refer to anything that just happens to be made out of words that do have meanings.
Looking at it from that perspective the question “Can God create a square circle” doesn’t make any sense. In the words of C.S. Lewis:
Looking at it from that perspective the question “Can God create a square circle” doesn’t make any sense. In the words of C.S. Lewis:
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